Teemu Selanne = Hall of Fame?

[God Bless Canada]

how so??? not a canadian bias is it???

look at their career stats.

There's far more to evaluating a player than just stats. Neely is an almost unprecedented combination of goals and physical play over the last 30 years. (Only Messier was better at combining the two critical aspects of this great game). He's one of the most defining players of the last quarter century. While there were power forwards before Neely steamrolled into the league, Neely is the one responsible for the term being popularized in today's game. They were both named to the all-star team (not the irrelevant all-star game) four times.

To me, the difference between the two (and I know I'm sounding like a broken record here) is that Neely elevated his play in the playoffs. Watch him dominate Montreal in the 1988 post-season, or watch him play in the first two-plus rounds in 1991, before Ulf Samuelsson took him out. (Neely's play in 1991 is some of the most dominant all-round hockey I've ever seen). Like I've said before, players can't help it if they they're on a mediocre team that keeps them from winning. But they can control whether or not they elevate their own play, and the playoffs are a heck of a lot more important than the regular season.

 

[Tucker316*]

Selanne`s numbers are very impressive over his career, but they look lower than they are because of the dead puck era. A while back on here, somebody (I think Hockey Outsider) posted a list of the top all-time scorers with their totals adjusted for eras and Selanne finished much higher than I would have expected.

Hall of Fame? Selanne has had virtually no success of any type in the playoffs in his career. If your playoff resume is that thin, then you have to put up Marcel Dionne-type numbers in the regular season in order to overcome that and get in the Hall. He`ll also be hurt by the fact that his best season was his rookie season, making everything that came afterwards look not as impressive.

Then why is Cam Neely in? He's never won anything that matters, doesnt have the point production of Teemu, nor the skill set.

I think that if Selanne cant make it, many players already in shouldnt have either. But I always did think there were some odd choices in there.

 

[Sens Rule]

.If Gilmour is borderline, then Andreychuk shouldnt even breathe the HOF.

Gilmour is not borderline. He is clearly a HOFer and there is no chance at all he doesn't get in. NONE.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Then why is Cam Neely in? He's never won anything that matters, doesnt have the point production of Teemu, nor the skill set.

I think that if Selanne cant make it, many players already in shouldnt have either. But I always did think there were some odd choices in there.

Neely didn't win anything, but he was dominant in three playoffs. He was the top reason the Bruins beat Montreal in 1988, ending a lengthy drought for the Bs against the Habs. Neely was a top reason for the Bruins reaching the Stanley Cup final in 1990, and you can't put into words how good he was in 1991. Look at the big picture, and you'll realize it's not about winning, it's about elevating your play to another level in the most important hockey.

 

[Tucker316*]

Neely didn't win anything, but he was dominant in three playoffs. He was the top reason the Bruins beat Montreal in 1988, ending a lengthy drought for the Bs against the Habs. Neely was a top reason for the Bruins reaching the Stanley Cup final in 1990, and you can't put into words how good he was in 1991. Look at the big picture, and you'll realize it's not about winning, it's about elevating your play to another level in the most important hockey.

But is that really enough? Think about it, he still didnt win any major championships, nor does he exactly have the stats to glossy his career with. He was a great power forward, but that shouldnt be enough.
He needs something major to brush over the fact he didnt really play a very long career.
I think Neely is definitely borderline.

I think elevating your play and game is fine and all, but if it doesnt really lead to anything significant, it is swept aside.

 

[God Bless Canada]

But is that really enough? Think about it, he still didnt win any major championships, nor does he exactly have the stats to glossy his career with. He was a great power forward, but that shouldnt be enough.
He needs something major to brush over the fact he didnt really play a very long career.
I think Neely is definitely borderline.

I think elevating your play and game is fine and all, but if it doesnt really lead to anything significant, it is swept aside.

Neely led the Bruins to their first playoff series win over the Habs in decades. He took his team to the Stanley Cup finals twice, only losing to the Oilers dynasty. He came within three goals of the single-season playoff goal scoring record in 1991, despite playing in only three rounds and having a debilitating leg injury the final few games. He's fourth all-time in playoff goals per game.

Neely was one of the defining players of his generation. Only Messier has combined physical play and goals like Neely did in the last 30 years. He was a post-season all-star four times, even though the leg/hip injuries limited him to essentially a four-year prime. (Don't call those last two years his prime). He scored 50 goals in his first 44 games in 1994, all done on a bad leg. (And in a season where goal scoring was under 6.5 per game).

How it took him six tries to get in the HHOF is confounding.

 

[canucksfan]

how so??? not a canadian bias is it???

look at their career stats.

So according to your theory Marcel Dionne is a better player than Mario Lemieux. You don't look at their career stats to judge players. How you compare players is you watch them play. Neely was a dominate force in the NHL. He was physical, a great leader and a great clutch player. Selanne is not any of those. There is more to hockey than just points.

I also think that Selanne should not be in the hall of fame.

 

[100mph slapshot]

Neely didn't have the skills to score anymore than 30 goals/season without an elite playmaker. Craig Janney and Adam Oates were feeding him like crazy. Really, think about it: Brett Hull played three seasons with 1goal/game average when he had Oates feeding him. No look at Selänne: Steve Rucchin, Travis Green, Andrei Nikolishin, Mike Sillinger, etc. Not so hot, eih? He had Alexei Zhamnov (a good center but nowhere near Oates or even Janney in his prime 89-93 if we talk about pure playmaking and passing) in his rookie campaign and scored 76 goals. But being honest it was actually defenseman Phil Housley who gave Teemu scoring chances, more so than Zhamnov. Selänne had like 3-4 breakaways every game, most of them result of Housley's fast passes deep from their defensive zone. Selänne had a pair of rockets for skates before that career-threathening achilles injury.
If we talk about skills, Neely has nothing on Selänne. That's like comparing Ian Moran and Paul Coffey. I know North Americans are crazy over the physical side of the game, but it's not all there is. Hockey is a skills game.
Neely's career was way too short and especially short on numbers to be considered as HHoF-material.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Neely didn't have the skills to score anymore than 30 goals/season without an elite playmaker. Craig Janney and Adam Oates were feeding him like crazy. Really, think about it: Brett Hull played three seasons with 1goal/game average when he had Oates feeding him. No look at Selänne: Steve Rucchin, Travis Green, Andrei Nikolishin, Mike Sillinger, etc. Not so hot, eih? He had Alexei Zhamnov (a good center but nowhere near Oates or even Janney in his prime 89-93 if we talk about pure playmaking and passing) in his rookie campaign and scored 76 goals. But being honest it was actually defenseman Phil Housley who gave Teemu scoring chances, more so than Zhamnov. Selänne had like 3-4 breakaways every game, most of them result of Housley's fast passes deep from their defensive zone. Selänne had a pair of rockets for skates before that career-threathening achilles injury.
If we talk about skills, Neely has nothing on Selänne. That's like comparing Ian Moran and Paul Coffey. I know North Americans are crazy over the physical side of the game, but it's not all there is. Hockey is a skills game.
Neely's career was way too short and especially short on numbers to be considered as HHoF-material.

You're kidding me, right? Players without talent don't score 50 goals in their first 44 games. Period. And Neely did it in a season when scoring was at about 6.5 goals per game, so don't give me the overused excuse that it was in a high-scoring season. Yes, Neely had Oates feeding him the puck, but you've still got to be able to finish the plays that you're presented with, and Neely did it 50 times. Neely wasn't the fastest skater in the world, but he was incredibly strong on his skates, with excellent balance, and the puck didn't slow him down. He could bull his way to the net. He had a rocket for a shot, was impossible to move from in front of the net and had soft hands for deflecting a shot. He would have scored with anyone on his line. Mediocre players don't score 50 goals in 44 games, or put up the fourth highest playoff goals per game average ever. It just so happened that he took passes from two dynamite playmakers.

Comparing Neely to Selanne is like comparing Ian Moran to Paul Coffey? Congratulations. That's the stupidest comment I've ever seen on this site. No, let me take it one step further: That may be the stupidest hockey-related comment I've heard in 20-plus years of watching the game. I'm not saying you're stupid, I'm saying your comment was stupid.

 

[100mph slapshot]

You're kidding me, right? Players without talent don't score 50 goals in their first 44 games. Period. And Neely did it in a season when scoring was at about 6.5 goals per game, so don't give me the overused excuse that it was in a high-scoring season. Yes, Neely had Oates feeding him the puck, but you've still got to be able to finish the plays that you're presented with, and Neely did it 50 times. Neely wasn't the fastest skater in the world, but he was incredibly strong on his skates, with excellent balance, and the puck didn't slow him down. He could bull his way to the net. He had a rocket for a shot, was impossible to move from in front of the net and had soft hands for deflecting a shot. He would have scored with anyone on his line. Mediocre players don't score 50 goals in 44 games, or put up the fourth highest playoff goals per game average ever. It just so happened that he took passes from two dynamite playmakers.

Comparing Neely to Selanne is like comparing Ian Moran to Paul Coffey? Congratulations. That's the stupidest comment I've ever seen on this site. No, let me take it one step further: That may be the stupidest hockey-related comment I've heard in 20-plus years of watching the game. I'm not saying you're stupid, I'm saying your comment was stupid.

Sure Neely was talented, but in a different way. He scored alot of goals because he was big and strong and he positioned himself in front of the net in a way that Janney and Oates could feed him. His skating was average at best and he didn't exactly have Lemieux-like hands. He was a great player and skills-wise he has nothing on Selänne and that's my opinion whether you like it or not. Can you see Neely setting up 68 or 60 goals/season because of his smooth stickhandling and passing? I can't. Selänne could/can finish with the best of them and also set up his linemates like an elite playmaker. He could skate and deke his way through a group of Dmen and make it look so easy.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Sure Neely was talented, but in a different way. He scored alot of goals because he was big and strong and he positioned himself in front of the net in a way that Janney and Oates could feed him. His skating was average at best and he didn't exactly have Lemieux-like hands. He was a great player and skills-wise he has nothing on Selänne and that's my opinion whether you like it or not. Can you see Neely setting up 68 or 60 goals/season because of his smooth stickhandling and passing? I can't. Selänne could/can finish with the best of them and also set up his linemates like an elite playmaker. He could skate and deke his way through a group of Dmen and make it look so easy.

1) You're still impossibly trying to dig yourself out of a very deep grave with that unfortunate Moran-Coffey comparison.

2) I don't see Selanne setting up "68 or 80 goals a season" either. In fact, Selanne's career high was 68 assists. 80 assists per year? You exaggerate.

3) I agree that Neely wasn't the best skater, stickhandler or playmaker we've ever seen. But there's a lot more to skating than just speed and agility. Neely was blessed with exceptional balance, and was very, very strong on the puck. Why skate around a defenceman when you can bull right over him on your way to the net? Neely had a rocket of a shot, and great deflecting abilities in front of the net. Pop in the video of him scoring his 50th in his 44th game in 1994. The goal he scored for his 50th was one of the best goals in the league that year.

4) It's not just about skill. It's what you do with that skill. And from the 1999-2000 season to 2003-04, Selanne's was not using his skill to the best of his ability. (Yes, I'm aware he had 85 points in 79 games in 1999-2000, but there were a lot of people dis-satisfied with Selanne's play that year). If it was all about skill, Jason Bonsignore and Alexander Volchkov would be all-stars by now.

5) Hockey is more than just the offensive and skill game. It's about tough, hard-nosed physical play. It's about leadership. It's about taking your play to the next level when it matters most. It's about the little things: making the smart play, winning that battle in the corner, or even taking a deliberate offside to save an odd-manned rush. Skill's important, no doubt about it, but to say it's "a skills game," as you did earlier, is erroneous. It's far more than that. With the exception of Messier, nobody has combined goal scoring and hitting like Neely over the last 30 years. Neely is fourth all-time in playoff goals per game. That's why he's deservedly in the Hall, and that's why I take him over Selanne.

6) One last thing: earlier in this thread, you said that Neely wouldn't score more than 30 goals without an elite playmaker? Well, he scored 42 goals in 69 games in 1987-88. That was Janney's rookie year, and Janney only played 15 games that year. So clearly he could get the job done without an elite playmaker, unless you're counting Ken "The Rat" Linsmen and Steve Kaspar as elite playmakers.

 

[100mph slapshot]

Dude, where did you get the 80 assists? I said 68 and 60.

And yes, Ken Linseman is almost an elite playmaker compared to centers Selänne has played with.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Dude, where did you get the 80 assists? I said 68 and 60.

I apologize. You did. 68 in 1996 and 60 in 1999. But where'd you get the idea that Neely fails to score 30 goals without an elite playmaker? He did so a couple times before Janney arrived.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Dude, where did you get the 80 assists? I said 68 and 60.

And yes, Ken Linseman is almost an elite playmaker compared to centers Selänne has played with.

Linsmen an elite playmaking centre compared to Zhamnov? Zhamnov was vying for the Art Ross in 1993-94 before he got hurt and was a second team all-star in 1995.

Plus, Selanne played with the offensive wizard that was pre-2000 Paul Kariya. Kariya was one of the best passers in the league in his prime. You don't have to be a centre to be a great passer or stickhandler.

 

[100mph slapshot]

Linsmen an elite playmaking centre compared to Zhamnov? Zhamnov was vying for the Art Ross in 1993-94 before he got hurt and was a second team all-star in 1995.

Plus, Selanne played with the offensive wizard that was pre-2000 Paul Kariya. Kariya was one of the best passers in the league in his prime. You don't have to be a centre to be a great passer or stickhandler.

Selänne played with Zhamnov for 1 whole season. Zhamnov had 47 assists.... not too hot when you remember that Teemu scored 76 goals that year and defenseman Phil Housley led the team with 79 assists.

Kariya was great, for sure. If I were a goalscorer I'd still rather play with Adam Oates (in his prime) centering and whoever on the other wing. I personally think that together with Gretzky, Oates was the best playmaker and a setup guy in the league for nearly ten years. (1989-1999)

 

[psycho_dad*]

Linsmen an elite playmaking centre compared to Zhamnov? Zhamnov was vying for the Art Ross in 1993-94 before he got hurt and was a second team all-star in 1995.

Plus, Selanne played with the offensive wizard that was pre-2000 Paul Kariya. Kariya was one of the best passers in the league in his prime. You don't have to be a centre to be a great passer or stickhandler.

Selänne produced with or without Kariya. He was a beast on his own when Kariya sat out for a better contract. Selänne is a better goal scorer and better playmaker than Neely ever was, but naturally Neely was the better physical forward. Depends what you value more.

This season Selänne has had rookies for linemates, and he has been scoring quite consistently..and also setting them up. People are only questioning his hall of fame position because he had one horrible season when he could not skate very well. That is just so HFboards....everyones memory goes back about a year, thats it.

 

[Pepper]

52 goals playing with Rucchin and Young.

I think that alone speaks volumes.

 

[God Bless Canada]

52 goals playing with Rucchin and Young.

I think that alone speaks volumes.

I have never argued Selanne's play in 1997-98. I have said a couple of times that Selanne was the most valuable forward to his team in the league that year. He put on a dazzling display of offence that year, and only slowed down late in the season because of injuries, his play in the Olympics and fatigue from facing stringent checking for most of the year. (I think he only scored a couple times in the last 10 games).

I was simply refuting some claims that a) Selanne never had a talented playmaker to feed him the puck (in fact, Neely only had Oates the last three seasons of his career, and they played equivalent to a season-and-a-half together) and b) that Neely could only produce with a gifted playmaker.

I firmly believe that Selanne is a lock for the Hall IF he can put together one excellent playoff, where he elevates his play from the regular season; or if he has two more high-quality regular seasons. (Not necessarily as good as he churned out in 1992-93 and from 1995-96 to 1998-99, but better than what he has churned out since 1998-99. As stated before, the numbers looked good in 1999-2000, but a lot of people were left wanting a lot more from him). This has probably been his best year since 1998-99 in terms of actual play and meeting expectations.

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

52 goals playing with Rucchin and Young.

I think that alone speaks volumes.

Bondra 52 with Pivonka If I remember correctly.

And its not like Rucchin and Young suck offensively.

 

[Sampe]

4) It's not just about skill. It's what you do with that skill. And from the 1999-2000 season to 2003-04, Selanne's was not using his skill to the best of his ability.

In hindsight, the only thing Selänne was not using during those seasons was his brain. He should have sacrificed one season in order to treat his injuries. Instead, he stayed in the NHL and if it wasn't for the lockout, no one would have realized just how much the injuries affected his game.

 

[ShaneDoan]

Selanne was definitely best players in NHL in the 90`s and has played very good this year after couple hard years...strange that u dont seem to respect him.

 

[Metallian*]

Yes. Without a doubt.

Not first ballot, but yes, he'll make it.

 

[Metallian*]

Neely ... one of the most defining players of the last quarter century. .

I forgot Neely existed prior to him being named to the HOF

 

[jepjepjoo]

OT: Reading this thread was like reading the same post from "God Bless Canada" every other post.

On Topic: Selänne belongs in the HHOF

Selanne at least had Tkachuk and a motivated Zhamnov in Winnipeg, and Kariya in Anaheim.

Ya I bet he wouldnt got those 76 goals 56A 132P without Tkachuk(28+23) or Zhamnov(25+47)

 

[Spankatola Jamnuts*]

Selanne was a top 5 player for a decade, top 2 at his position. He dominated every game he played.

Personally, I think if he had played his best years in Canada or in the East this wouldn't even be up for debate.