Teams that Lost Money in 2004

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Drury_Sakic, Apr 16, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Drury_Sakic

    Drury_Sakic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2003
    Messages:
    4,076
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Home Page:
    Teams that lost money in 2004(According to the conservative losses estimating Forbes)

    Big Market
    Avalanche -1.1 million
    Detroit -15.4 miillion
    Dallas -0.3 miilion
    Flyers -4.1 million
    Rangers -3.3 million

    Middle-Big Markets

    Kings -5.3 million(I consider them big market, but it is SoCal)
    St. Louis -28.8 miilion

    Middle Markets
    Devils -13.9 million (might belong in middle-big markets if it was not NJ)
    Washington -14.7 million

    Middle-Small Markets
    Ottawa -5.0 million
    Mighty Ducks -22.4
    Buffalo -10.5 million

    Small Market

    Islanders -9.5 million (could/should be middle-big markets)
    Yotes -7.8 million (got a new rink, should help a bundle)
    Florida -3.7 million
    Pens -0.6 million
    'Cains - 18.2 million


    Now, Above are all the teams that lost money in 2004...all other clubs made at least a minor profit..(if I made a mistake, someone let me know)

    Make of that what you will......Just though it would be interesting to put a face to it all...

    :teach:
     
  2. nyrmessier011

    nyrmessier011 Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Messages:
    3,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Charlotte/NYC
    every big market team overspent and the owners could easily police themselves without a hard cap...LA is in california..hockey in california...The Devils will always have a hard time selling with NYR/NYI/PHILY so close. Anaheim, Phoenix, Florida, Carolina should not even exist. How many teams does that leave now?
     
  3. how would forbes know? they didn't audit the NHLs books.
     
  4. Levitate

    Levitate Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    25,742
    Likes Received:
    720
    Trophy Points:
    169
    washington is a big market...just maybe not for hockey
     
  5. futurcorerock

    futurcorerock Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,831
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    ...so, they're small market? :dunno:
     
  6. bladoww

    bladoww Team of the Future

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Messages:
    1,552
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Here we go again with the anti-hockey in hot weather comments...
     
  7. Crazy_Ike

    Crazy_Ike Cookin' with fire.

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    9,081
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Worth mentioning as well that some markets (like Edmonton, if we trust that source) only avoided losing money by keeping their payroll rock bottom where they couldn't compete for players.

    As the OP said, though... very conservative estimate from Forbes, who never looked at the books.
     
  8. Johnnybegood13

    Johnnybegood13 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    Messages:
    7,731
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Interesting that you consider Ottawa a middle-small market when everyone says Edmonton and Calgary are Small markets.

    Aren't they roughly the same size :dunno:
     
  9. Johnnybegood13

    Johnnybegood13 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    Messages:
    7,731
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    157
    I just checked:

    1 Toronto ONT 5,202,300
    2 Montréal QUE 3,607,200
    3 Vancouver BC 2,173,100
    4 Ottawa ONT 1,145,500
    5 Calgary ALTA 1,037,100
    6 Edmonton ALTA 1,001,600

    7 Québec QUE 710,800
    8 Hamilton ONT 710,100
    9 Winnipeg MAN 702,400
    10 London ONT 459,600
    11 Kitchener ONT 450,000
    12 St. Catharines ONT 394,900
    13 Halifax NS 379,800
    14 Windsor ONT 330,900
    15 Victoria BC 330,200
    16 Oshawa ONT 329,000
    17 Saskatoon SASK 234,000
    18 Regina SASK 198,600
    19 St. John's NFLD 179,900
    20 Sherbrooke QUE 162,300
    21 Sudbury ONT 161,100
    22 Abbotsford BC 157,600
    23 Kingston ONT 156,500
    24 Saguenay QUE 154,200

    Close enough for me ;)
     
  10. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    75,063
    Likes Received:
    811
    Trophy Points:
    214
    Home Page:
    Interestingly ..

    The teams that have been reported to be the strongest supporters of Bettman and a Lower Hard Cap :

    Chicago, Boston, Calgary, Edmonton, Nashville .. all are not on the losing list ..
     
  11. dolfanar

    dolfanar Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2002
    Messages:
    2,948
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Some see the glass as half-empty, some see the gla
    Location:
    Like a midget at a urinal, I'm going to have to st
    Home Page:
    Not ont he revenue losing list, but then they are among the most fiscally responsible... which makes LOADS of sense. This is the smart business owners finally reigning in on the spend and burners.

    It's funny, but of those teams, I am a bit surprised by how little Florida lost... hmmm.

    Anaheim and Carolina are pretty sore eyes. Poor teams, poor attendance, poor economics...

    St. Louis is VERY scary. That team nearly died once...
     
  12. mooseOAK*

    mooseOAK* Guest

    Reported by who?

    In order for the lockout to go this long then that list has to have many more names.
     
  13. Notice on that list that only Ottawa lost money of the 6 located in Canada.

    Could you please provide a link to the site where you found these numbers? I have been looking for about a month to no avail.

    Thanks
     
  14. Drury_Sakic

    Drury_Sakic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2003
    Messages:
    4,076
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Home Page:

    As reported by Forbes..

    http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists...ssListType=Misc&uniqueId=310760&datatype=Misc

    A few notes about the numbers..

    They are conservative from the money lost point...their numbers are roughly 2/3rds of what the NHL claimed to have lost.....

    But, that said, its not like Forbes is a 2nd rate company....their data is usually good....


    I don't totally believe the NHL, as its in their best interest to inflate their numbers(not that I believe they are outright lying, but that they streatched them whenever possible)..

    Plus, these are just one years numbers....so...Take Calgary...they turned a small profit according to Forbes, but thats with them playing 4 rounds of hockey....minus an improbable playoff run, their losses would have been quite large.. the opposite occures for Colorado, Detriot, and Dallas... if those teams would have pulled into the next round(or not had 2 8 million goaltenders)..they would have made profits...


    Odds are you could average the NHL/Leveit numbers and the Forbes numbers and come out close to actual losses...





    Another thing to look at regarding ALL the numbers out there is that there are some money factors not counted in... As in the case of Colorado, 10-15 million dollars of their spendings went into creating Kronke's network, so take that off of the expences of the Avs and they actually made somewhere in the 9-10 million dollar mark(long term, they will profit from not outsourcing local broadcasting rights and new Ad income).....
     
  15. chriss_co

    chriss_co Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    CALGARY
    Calgary would have lost millions this year had they not made the playoffs. It wasn't until the 1st several games against San Jose that they turned a profit.

    I should also mention that Calgary maximized all of their playoff home appearances in the postseason. There were 3 home games per series for all 4 series.

    So basically, it took Calgary 6-7 playoff games to breakeven.
     
  16. Dave is a killer

    Dave is a killer Dave's a Mess

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    26,469
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    171
    Location:
    Mount Juliet
    Home Page:
    which should tell you something about the current CBA system
     
  17. Scoogs

    Scoogs Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Messages:
    18,309
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    126
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Even though I think it sucks... I think it's in the best interest of the NHL to do it.. But I mean, if that many teams are losing money... then that should really tell you that this league was dying... And as of now, still is.
     
  18. DW3

    DW3 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2004
    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Why? They don't have any really big stars (One of the youngest teams in the NHL), therefore no high $$ saleries. They're rebuilding, so they have a bunch of hot youngsters who are starting to play like older players, but at 1/2 the price. Add to this there was a large number of sellouts this season, shows why they didn't really lose that much.

    Also, Sunrise is basically a suburb of Miami, how does that make it small market?
     
  19. ColoradoHockeyFan

    ColoradoHockeyFan Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,368
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    Denver area
    What exactly is the definition of "big market" here? The entire six-county area that includes and surrounds Denver-Boulder has only, what, 2.2 million people, yet the Avs are listed among the biggest group in terms of market size.
     
  20. Chileiceman

    Chileiceman Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    9,495
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Location:
    Toronto
    i think his market sizes are based on payroll.
     
  21. Drury_Sakic

    Drury_Sakic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2003
    Messages:
    4,076
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Home Page:
    I tried to take in to account a few things..

    A)Payroll
    B)How often the team makes playoffs
    C)Location
    D)Population in that Location
    E)Hockeyablititermary of that market(its a word damn it!) :biglaugh:
    F)Hockey teams Owners spending ablitity and what they Own

    Which is how Denver, a team not super strong in the D catagory is in the top, while LA slips to the 2nd catagory(due to its location in SoCal and a slightly tight owner) and why Florida slips into the small market( It takes a hit in A,B,E, F,)

    Markets can change...in 5 years, Florida could be a medium-big hockey market if they keep their talent and start making the playoffs....Just as if the Avalanche totally stop spending and missed the playoffs all 5 years, they would slip to a medium-small market.

    But yeah.. the most important factors in my breakdown is Payroll and how willing/able an owner is to spend...

    its not cast in stone, just one guys opinion...
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2005
  22. mooseOAK*

    mooseOAK* Guest

    The Denver area has never had to experience a bad hockey team, how good the market is won't be determined until that happens for a few years in a row.

    But people do point to it as a big market team even though it really isn't.
     
  23. Boltsfan2029

    Boltsfan2029 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    6,264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Paralegal
    Location:
    In deleted threads
    Is this info gleaned from the report that Forbes itself says was based on assumptions because they didn't have access to the teams' financial information?
     
  24. R0CKET

    R0CKET Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    We here in SoCal refer to it as the Harrold Ballard school if ignorance.
     
  25. mooseOAK*

    mooseOAK* Guest

    That wasn't the answer to my question, it was who was reporting the names of teams forcing the lockout.

    Anyway, I would think that the Kronke's would be a little upset if the lockout was costing them that huge of a profit. But it isn't.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"