Helene St. James Tatar the latest Detroit castoff to disappoint

[TCNorthstars]

AHL ain't the NHL.

Yeah, it is better because A comes before H in the alphabet! Boom!

 

[NickH8]

I think this is exactly it. Red Wings are a basement team and have been for 2+ years. Every player knew it coming in for training camp last year and this year. He gets traded to a team that...

It isnt even worth listing all the metaphors for Vegas at this stage. Obviously, no one believed in them except them. Now people notice, but no one did in training camp.

Tatar has to readjust to a contending team's mentality. Especially when the contending team isnt a normal contending team in star power, a la Pitt, TB, Caps, etc. Vegas is where it is right now because their first line is awesome and outplays the other team's most nights, roster-wide speed, depth and above all, dogged work ethic instilled by an excellent coach.

Tatar will contribute next year for them or even last night's goal gets him going, but Vegas plays a risky, attacking forecheck, something Tats isnt very good at. Vegas is great between the bluelines and can move the puck up ice and make plays, yes, but what separates them being good to great, is their tenacious forecheck. They hound opposing defences, constant pressure, it wears on the other team mentally, makes them do things a beat faster than they want to, or opt for a safer play because they dont want to turn it over. When youre tenative and safe, you dont usually win against good teams. Meanwhile, Vegas plays like they have nothing to lose and nothing to prove. They play loose, they play fun and if it doesnt work that night, they do the same damn thing tomorrow. Its fun to watch.

Sounds like Todd Nelson's Griffins, he loves the aggressive forecheck and taking the game to the other team. Personally I would love to see Nelson coach Detroit to bring in this style of game.

 

[Reddwit]

What about Sheahan?

As for Tatar, Vegas is a team full of guys who were unwanted playing like a band of brothers. Tatar was a highly regarded prospect well-liked by the casual fan in Detroit who signed a big deal and then was traded for a hefty return. I don’t see a good fit for him in that room. I don’t see a good fit for many guys coming into that Vegas room this year. It’s all about chemistry over there. Tats isn’t a stud but he isn’t this bad. (And a lot of guys on that team aren’t this good.)

 

[PelagicJoe]

What about Sheahan?

Expectations for Riley were rather low even before we traded him. I'd take a 20 goal scorer over a 2 goal scorer any day of the week.

 

[Henkka]

It's amazing Ken Holland got that kind of return for Tatar.

McPhee is bad in trades. I just checked his trade record. Felt like all of them were either even or McPhee lost.

 

[masta8]

McPhee is bad in trades. I just checked his trade record. Felt like all of them were either even or McPhee lost.

I wouldn't consider acquiring Rielly Smith in exchange for selecting Marchessault and a fourth round pick as a bad trade.... I thought he did a really good job acquiring assets prior to the expansion draft such as theodore and tuch.

 

[abbbaron]

McPhee is bad in trades. I just checked his trade record. Felt like all of them were either even or McPhee lost.

I generally wouldn't trust McPhee to make trades for my contender, but it's still way to early to start calling the Tatar deal a bust, or even disappointing. That he hasn't been able to quickly adjust and fit in to the system they've got going in Vegas, it's a tempest in a teapot at this point because Vegas is on the cusp of making it into the Finals.
It just seems like he paid a lot for Tatar because it was done at the deadline (maybe people are confusing it for a rental?) and it's what, the largest haul of picks Holland has brought in during his career? Otherwise a 1st/2nd/3rd is not that much for 3+ seasons of a 27yr old who has been a been a consistent 20-goal scorer. You could just as easily argue that Holland misplayed it by selling Tatar at one of the lowest points in his NHL career rather than highest.

Even if Tatar doesn't quite find his footing in Vegas next season, there is plenty of time to correct course (McPhee can flip him and would likely recoup most of what he gave up to Holland). When you look at the context-- I don't know the exact time-line of events during deadline day-- I wonder if McPhee didn't pull the trigger on the Tatar when it seemed like a deal for Karlsson wasn't going to get done. Obviously two very different trades, but both would serve the purpose of sending a strong signal to his organization that their MO at that point was definitely no longer auditioning/showcasing for the future, but rather that management believes in that group and is willing to trade away future assets to fortify it.

 

[Henkka]

I wouldn't consider acquiring Rielly Smith in exchange for selecting Marchessault and a fourth round pick as a bad trade.... I thought he did a really good job acquiring assets prior to the expansion draft such as theodore and tuch.

Mostly I did check only the Capitals record. That expansion building process had so many different factors, so I excluded those trades. Floridan Panthers' lunatism helped him a lot for sure.

McPhee is absolutely great at evaluating talent, this whole expansion process is a proof of it, but I don't really know what happens on his trades. Are they always short-term, and he loses the long-term value, and it shows when you look to history. But that's what happens for a contender GM almost always. You are a buyer, win short-term, lose long-term.

 

[LeighDx59]

Id re-visit this at the end of next season. Tatar went from a piss-poor dump and chase/slow the pace down system here in Detroit to Vegas' high flying system, of course he isnt going to pick it up super fast. It'll be interesting to see if a fresh start and Training Camp will help him improve there in Vegas. Either he adapts to their system and becomes a solid player or he regresses.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Id re-visit this at the end of next season. Tatar went from a piss-poor dump and chase/slow the pace down system here in Detroit to Vegas' high flying system, of course he isnt going to pick it up super fast. It'll be interesting to see if a fresh start and Training Camp will help him improve there in Vegas. Either he adapts to their system and becomes a solid player or he regresses.

I agree with the waiting. IMO, acquiring Tatar to add scoring depth for a deep playoff run was secondary to having a locked down fall back plan for next season if they end up losing one or both of Neal and Perron in free agency.

 

[ShelbyZ]

What about Sheahan?

I don't think Sheahan "disappointed" with the Pens, but there would be an interesting debate whether or not he "met expectations".

They acquired him with the hope that he would rebound from his down year into a viable 3rd line center to replace Bonino. Instead by the trade deadline they decided Sheahan was better as their 4th line center and went out and made that wonky trade for Brassard to address the 3rd line C. Eventually Sheahan moved back into that spot during the playoffs because Brassard was pretty much a non factor.

So far Sheahan is the lone exception in recently departed Wings where he became a productive regular player for the acquiring team (unless Wilson counts??).

 

[Hen Kolland]

I don't think Sheahan "disappointed" with the Pens, but there would be an interesting debate whether or not he "met expectations".

They acquired him with the hope that he would rebound from his down year into a viable 3rd line center to replace Bonino. Instead by the trade deadline they decided Sheahan was better as their 4th line center and went out and made that wonky trade for Brassard to address the 3rd line C. Eventually Sheahan moved back into that spot during the playoffs because Brassard was pretty much a non factor.

So far Sheahan is the lone exception in recently departed Wings where he became a productive regular player for the acquiring team (unless Wilson counts??).

I think this is more about Pittsburgh being hell bent on finding some added scoring depth. Sheahan was a very capable third line center for them, but they are going to be entering the twilight years of this competitive window soon, so I can't fault them for trying to get someone you expect to be an impact player like Brassard. Riley's production with Pittsburgh on paper was in the same realm as Abdelkader, Nielsen, Athanasiou this year. He was taking like 65% dZone starts, winning comfortably over 50% of his faceoffs, was one of the top 5 forwards in the NHL as far as PK usage goes.

What absolutely killed Sheahan's tenure with Detroit was the over-saturation of the C position in 2016-17. Zetterberg, Larkin, Athanasiou, Nielsen, Ott, Helm, Glendening, Sheahan were getting some chances at center (some more than others). He had to compete with the likes of Vanek at the start of the year, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Mantha (also Athanasiou/Helm) for the remaining winger spots, and we know that some of those guys receive a bit too much leeway or are misused. He never really was put in a spot to play to his position of strength, and he ended up playing 4th line winger with the super talented playmaking abilities of Glendening and Miller and Ott.

It was so easy to sour on Sheahan because of his lack of offensive production and when he was drafted, but he is a solid bottom 6 center. He was never going to be given a chance in Detroit because Holland panic-signed Nielsen and Vanek and Ott, so I'm happy he was able to go somewhere that he was given a chance to succeed, and he has. In retrospect, was he worth the draft pick when he was selected? No, but I think people in Detroit kept forcing unrealistic expectations on him after he had shown that he developed into an average 3C ceiling type of player.

 

[ShelbyZ]

What absolutely killed Sheahan's tenure with Detroit was the over-saturation of the C position in 2016-17. Zetterberg, Larkin, Athanasiou, Nielsen, Ott, Helm, Glendening, Sheahan were getting some chances at center (some more than others). He had to compete with the likes of Vanek at the start of the year, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Mantha (also Athanasiou/Helm) for the remaining winger spots, and we know that some of those guys receive a bit too much leeway or are misused. He never really was put in a spot to play to his position of strength, and he ended up playing 4th line winger with the super talented playmaking abilities of Glendening and Miller and Ott.

It was so easy to sour on Sheahan because of his lack of offensive production and when he was drafted, but he is a solid bottom 6 center. He was never going to be given a chance in Detroit because Holland panic-signed Nielsen and Vanek and Ott, so I'm happy he was able to go somewhere that he was given a chance to succeed, and he has. In retrospect, was he worth the draft pick when he was selected? No, but I think people in Detroit kept forcing unrealistic expectations on him after he had shown that he developed into an average 3C ceiling type of player.

There seems to be a lot of revision here.... That season, Sheahan was arguably one of those guys getting "leeway". After Helm went down, Sheahan was regularly getting anywhere from 12 to over 18 minutes a night at C or on wing with decent linemates through the middle of last season despite going goalless. You can look at plenty of threads/posts from last season and at some point you'll see a ton of moaning about Blashill "unfairly" benching AA (and sometimes Mantha), while continuing to give goalless Sheahan plenty of regular 5v5 and PP time with decent linemates. Ott rarely came off of the 4th line or PK, and Nielsen was essentially taking Datsyuks place as a C for the top 6. Larkin played center for maybe the first 4 games before mostly playing wing and then finishing the year back at C, and you can count the number of games AA played C on one hand.

 

[Hen Kolland]

There seems to be a lot of revision here.... That season, Sheahan was arguably one of those guys getting "leeway". After Helm went down, Sheahan was regularly getting anywhere from 12 to over 18 minutes a night at C or on wing with decent linemates through the middle of last season despite going goalless. You can look at plenty of threads/posts from last season and at some point you'll see a ton of moaning about Blashill "unfairly" benching AA (and sometimes Mantha), while continuing to give goalless Sheahan plenty of regular 5v5 and PP time with decent linemates. Ott rarely came off of the 4th line or PK, and Nielsen was essentially taking Datsyuks place as a C for the top 6. Larkin played center for maybe the first 4 games before mostly playing wing and then finishing the year back at C, and you can count the number of games AA played C on one hand.

He was effectively signed out of a job in Detroit. You think it's revision, but he was near the bottom of the team in average ice time; I believe he was ahead of Miller, Ott, Glendening, and Athanasiou. We know the story of AA bouncing around, so his inclusion doesn't surprise me. Ott and Miller combined to play a little more than a full season. I don't need to look back at posts to remember this season; it's still recent enough that I can remember who was used in what role. He did get some looks in situations he shouldn't have, but he absolutely wasn't not a consistent 3rd line center for a majority of the year. He was bounced around from center to wing, from 3rd to 4th line.

I know why the signing of Nielsen was made, but I don't think it needed to be. Look at what role he plays for Detroit right now. He's a defensive match-up 3C who makes $5+M for the next like 4 years and is 34 years old. Sheahan had a better year playing the same role making $2M and is 26 years old. This situation is the pinnacle of asset mismangement by this organization. It was the year they decided to finally bring in youth, but also signed a bunch of veterans. The only remedy they had was to quit on a still relatively young player after a down year that they would hold all the power when it came to contract negotiation. And we are still sitting here with a declining player with an immovable contract.

 

[Ezekial]

Still with this Riley Sheahan garbage?

I was one of the sympathetic posters, and I was happy to see him go, he was absolutely shit on the entirety of the 16-17 season by people on here.

It's definitely revisionism. 100%.

He wasn't signed out of a job, he played like ass for 90 games and had 2 goals and 13 points.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Still with this Riley Sheahan garbage?

I was one of the sympathetic posters, and I was happy to see him go, he was absolutely **** on the entirety of the 16-17 season by people on here.

It's definitely revisionism. 100%.

He wasn't signed out of a job, he played like ass for 90 games and had 2 goals and 13 points.

Yes, he had one year that he played horrible. His year by year tells me that he's a 10-15 goal, 25-35 point, defensively sound bottom 6 center. One bad year doesn't make a player. His track record before that down year was solid, and the year after he put together his best year to date. He had to be moved because the team was over-signed. We had to move him in order to sign a troublesome player that half of Detroit doesn't want in the city anymore. If you don't see that as gross mismanagement of assets, I don't know what to tell you.

The trade off looks like shit. I'm happy he has a chance to succeed elsewhere, but you can't convince me that the approach that our organization was absolutely abysmal.

 

[Ezekial]

Yes, he had one year that he played horrible. His year by year tells me that he's a 10-15 goal, 25-35 point, defensively sound bottom 6 center. One bad year doesn't make a player. His track record before that down year was solid, and the year after he put together his best year to date. He had to be moved because the team was over-signed. We had to move him in order to sign a troublesome player that half of Detroit doesn't want in the city anymore. If you don't see that as gross mismanagement of assets, I don't know what to tell you.

The trade off looks like ****. I'm happy he has a chance to succeed elsewhere, but you can't convince me that the approach that our organization was absolutely abysmal.

Nick Bonino.

He had to be moved because he was ineffective, also to accommodate other players.

I'll never ever ever look back at Sheahan's trade with regret. Ever.

 

[Reddwit]

I don't think Sheahan "disappointed" with the Pens, but there would be an interesting debate whether or not he "met expectations".

They acquired him with the hope that he would rebound from his down year into a viable 3rd line center to replace Bonino. Instead by the trade deadline they decided Sheahan was better as their 4th line center and went out and made that wonky trade for Brassard to address the 3rd line C. Eventually Sheahan moved back into that spot during the playoffs because Brassard was pretty much a non factor.

So far Sheahan is the lone exception in recently departed Wings where he became a productive regular player for the acquiring team (unless Wilson counts??).

That’s my point. The article completely overlooked Sheahan. The Pens got Sheahan for a reasonable price because he was a low risk guy coming off a horrific season and he basically bounced back with a season comparable to his best.

Now, do I misss him? Not at all. And he’s not a loss. But he certainly didn’t disappoint in Pittsburgh.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Nick Bonino.

He had to be moved because he was ineffective, also to accommodate other players.

I'll never ever ever look back at Sheahan's trade with regret. Ever.

Maybe that's the disconnect, I don't regret trading him. I regret that the team made the moves to put us in the position where the only remaining option was to trade him.

 

[Claypool]

Maybe that's the disconnect, I don't regret trading him. I regret that the team made the moves to put us in the position where the only remaining option was to trade him.

And yet, you’d probably be just as angry if Holland said they aren’t calling up Rasmussen this year because there’s no spot for him. This team is getting younger; Players like Sheahan and Nyquist are on the way out.

Don’t complain.

 

[Ezekial]

Maybe that's the disconnect, I don't regret trading him. I regret that the team made the moves to put us in the position where the only remaining option was to trade him.

My bad KH, we just were having this debate a few weeks ago and a certain poster was framing it as a stain on the real KH's legacy for letting him go

I think if he was on the team last year it would've been much of the same and people would've been all up in KHs McGriddles about keeping him

 

[Hen Kolland]

My bad KH, we just were having this debate a few weeks ago and a certain poster was framing it as a stain on the real KH's legacy for letting him go

I think if he was on the team last year it would've been much of the same and people would've been all up in KHs McGriddles about keeping him

No problem, looking back at my last posts I really did stage everything as if Sheahan was an important piece to hold on to. Writing was on the wall when his name started popping up in rumors; he was clearly not in the plans to start the year even before we signed AA

 

[ShelbyZ]

That’s my point. The article completely overlooked Sheahan. The Pens got Sheahan for a reasonable price because he was a low risk guy coming off a horrific season and he basically bounced back with a season comparable to his best.

Now, do I misss him? Not at all. And he’s not a loss. But he certainly didn’t disappoint in Pittsburgh.

I mean in HSJ's defense, the article didn't say "every player that Ken Holland has traded away has been a disappointment", just that Tatar is the latest in a long line that have... Kindl, Jurco, Smith, Vanek (in Florida), Mrazek and now Tatar.

 

[Hen Kolland]

And yet, you’d probably be just as angry if Holland said they aren’t calling up Rasmussen this year because there’s no spot for him. This team is getting younger; Players like Sheahan and Nyquist are on the way out.

Don’t complain.

Don't see the connection that you are making, can you elaborate? Being upset that they signed Nielsen and other veterans to bad deals that forced us to get rid of a RFA because of roster and cap complications does not have anything to do with Rasmussen or next year. It would be comparable if after this year Sheahan hadn't shown too much improvement and Holland resigned him for 4 years and a raise and that was what prevented Rasmussen from getting a chance.

I have no problem with naturally phasing people out of the roster, in fact I'm probably one of the more progressive minds you will find in that regard. I also know how to handle budgets and can identify poor spending habits and forecast investments with poor returns. Why pay $5M for Nielsen with diminishing production when you can get the exact same production for $2M in Sheahan? Why pay $2M for Sheahan's production when you can get the exact same production with better outlook for $900K in Rasmussen? It's Moneyball to an extent.

 

[Claypool]

Don't see the connection that you are making, can you elaborate? Being upset that they signed Nielsen and other veterans to bad deals that forced us to get rid of a RFA because of roster and cap complications does not have anything to do with Rasmussen or next year. It would be comparable if after this year Sheahan hadn't shown too much improvement and Holland resigned him for 4 years and a raise and that was what prevented Rasmussen from getting a chance.

I have no problem with naturally phasing people out of the roster, in fact I'm probably one of the more progressive minds you will find in that regard. I also know how to handle budgets and can identify poor spending habits and forecast investments with poor returns. Why pay $5M for Nielsen with diminishing production when you can get the exact same production for $2M in Sheahan? Why pay $2M for Sheahan's production when you can get the exact same production with better outlook for $900K in Rasmussen? It's Moneyball to an extent.

You're complaining about players that will be playing no part in this team's eventual turnaround. No one cares about Sheahan or Nielsen or Nyquist. Who cares? They need to be off the team and, in time, they will be. Complaining about contract signings from three years ago when this team is clearly headed in a different, younger direction, is a complete waste of time.