Tanknation - Is the Population Zero ?
- Thread starter bobbygore
- Start date
There still exists a form of "Tank Nation". They are the fans who would sabotage the best chance at playoff success for a couple late 1st rounders/2nd rounders.
Gary Nylund
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Nithoniniel
Registered User
Sabotage is quite a strong word. If our chances hinges on Bozak over Kapanen or Leivo, we don't have much of a chance anyway.
Menzinger
Kessel4LadyByng
There were definitely a few stragglers this offseason trying to make the (strange case) the Leafs needed to tank one more season.
Would say it's pretty dead st this point though.
There's still a legit debate to be had over trading JVR/Bozak/Leo though, but that's something completely different
Would say it's pretty dead st this point though.
There's still a legit debate to be had over trading JVR/Bozak/Leo though, but that's something completely different
It's the exact right word. Playoff teams usually ADD talent to enhance the team's depth not sell off their depth simply because it has trade value.
Are you suggesting that either Kapanen or Leivo are better NHL players than Bozak right now? Even if they're equals, neither one is a center and hence not a substitution for a center. And if Bozak's center substitution is Nylander, then the quality of Matthews' linemate declines.
Mess
Global Moderator
Tank Nation did their job well and supported the Matthews pick. 
You only cheer to finish last when you're a bad team, and need future help and the best players that change that future are at the top of the draft.
Can't imagine any true Leaf fan hoping or cheering for losses now and hoping for a tank.
You only cheer to finish last when you're a bad team, and need future help and the best players that change that future are at the top of the draft.
Can't imagine any true Leaf fan hoping or cheering for losses now and hoping for a tank.
Nithoniniel
Registered User
No it's not, because it indicates a more severe effect on our chances than is reasonable to assume.
I said if our chances depend on Bozak over our replacement, we don't have much of a chance anyway. The replacements does not have to be better for that to be true.
And Nylander's new line benefits.
Nobody is arguing that the team gets better here. The argument is that if the effect is small now but potentially significant long-term, then that might be the right choice if we want a 10+ year window of competitive play.
You don't have to agree. I totally respect that.
Gary Nylund
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Nice post. I thought I nailed it with
but I have to admit, your post might be better. This year is one of those years of competitive play. And it's a year with significant veteran depth in the lineup. This isn't the year to take a step back. The year that happens is when the team has live through the growing pains of its middling prospects (Kapanen, Leivo, Soshnikov, Johnsson, etc.) playing in place of proven NHL talent due to salary cap restraints. I think the Success of Recent History bias (my copyright) is playing a role here. I don't think these prospects knocking on the door are the quality of Matthews/Nylander/Marner or even Brown or Hyman.
Nithoniniel
Registered User
We can't pick and chose when to take a small hit now for a larger impact over time though.
I'm fine with us not trading Bozak and JVR. It's not the end of the world. I've even argued for retaining JVR if possible. But as things look right now, that duo is a problem and we're having a hard time fixing it.
Did you just make up a bias?
Suntouchable13
Registered User
The defensive play of JvR and Bozak is bringing the team down. They are on for a lot of goals against, it's not a coincidence.
Regarding this recent trend about pickle juice, I can't shake my experience of hearing "pickle juice drinker" being used as taunt in certain circles as meaning "low class" or "unsophisticated".
FlareKnight
Registered User
The tank is in the parking garage. Not going to need it for a few decades. It should be allowed to rest.
Who would we be tanking for? I was all in to tank for Timothy last season. I'm not a big fan of Dahlin. I think we can get pretty solid value with the 15-25 pick.
Mess
Global Moderator
Good Question and possible answer: Thinking outside the box Tank Nation in its new form.
Tank Nation true intent & benefit to the Leafs long-term is the purpose of fans cheering against your own team.
3 Phase process to Tank Nation.
Phase 1 - Cheer for the team to lose in order to draft high, & it produces Auston, Willie and Mitch.. CHECK
Phase 2 - Cheer for team success, but cheer against Matthews, Nylander and Marner, hoping they do well but not too well until they're out of ELC and sign lower 2nd Deals.
Phase 3 - Cheer away for team and 3 Amigos to tear the cover off it !!
If you cheer for the Leafs to win every game, but secretly hope that when Leafs do score that its not Mathews, Marner or Nylander this year that are doing it. Since this is contract years for the 3 Amigos so its in the teams best interest that their production produces lower next contract demand and results.
Lower 2nd contracts = Stronger Leafs team and better team depth as a result of more cap space, and thus better Cup competitive team. If Leafs get the 3 Amigos for $20 mil combined instead of $24 mil that is an extra +$4 mil player in the line-up etc.
PS. I'm not doing this, only providing a tank nation example where it could still apply to benefit the team.
Maybe that's an argument to discuss. For the advanced stats crowd, there is nothing in that line's possession numbers thus far to suggest that the line's high minus rate is anything other than bad luck versus other lines with similar possession numbers. The Bozak line isn't getting dominated. Maybe it's making more egregious defensive errors or Andersen just isn't stopping the Bozak line's mistakes at the same rate.
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Menzinger
Kessel4LadyByng
I'd say there's a pretty good case to be made for keeping all the UFAs, but it's not without counter arguments.
The Leafs do have some NHL ready prospects, and while they may not be able to likely get 50-60 points, they could probably put up around 40ish and likely be able to play better defensively. And there's the dynamic that by not trading them it's giving up the chance to get draft picks that can ether be used to draft replacement prospects or be flipped to buy an asset the team needs on the trade market (ie a D man).
Basically it comes down to, does the team gamble and keep them all for a cup run or take the asset management route and trust that the team would remain competitive even with the loss of 1-2 of them.
You have a very strong grasp of the obvious......... The purpose of this thread is to determine if there are there any contrarians still out there who believe that this team is not as good the vast majority of people believe it is , and if there is anybody still left who believe a losing season would be of any benefit .
The obvious answer would be no( especially on a Leafs thread) but there are those who like to swim against the current. You might get a totally different answer from fans of other teams.
Also, it will be interesting to see what would happen if the Leafs suffer injuries like Tampa did last year and went on a prolonged losing streak. You might then see the Tanknation have a surprising rebirth.
Gary Nylund
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If that's what the thread is about, you should have picked a different title.
1)
The vast majority of people can agree on almost nothing here so there is no consensus on how good we are. I think many of us in "wait and see" mode but I could be wrong.
2)
A losing season has the benefit of a higher draft slot. That's true whether a team is tanking or not.
I hope that helps.
Bluelines
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