Oilslick941611
Registered User
Nenshi re-elected. Good bye New Arena for the Flames.
T: Flames no longer Pursuing new Arena
- Thread starter Game 8
- Start date
frag2
Registered User
- Mar 8, 2006
- 19,221
- 7,368
Haha Flames organization can say whatever they want about Nenshi being arrogant but it’s just a case of kettle calling pot black or whatever.
Nenshi watches over 1M plus people. The Flames?
This arena issue will be hilarious
Nenshi watches over 1M plus people. The Flames?
This arena issue will be hilarious
Four years. Same as Edmonton now.
At this rate the Oilers might replace Rogers before the Flames replace the Saddledome.
It's really tough to beat an incumbent. Hopefully Nenshi takes this as a wake up call and runs city hall down there a little more congenially.
Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
It's on the Flames and their entitled owners as well.Four years. Same as Edmonton now.
At this rate the Oilers might replace Rogers before the Flames replace the Saddledome.
It's really tough to beat an incumbent. Hopefully Nenshi takes this as a wake up call and runs city hall down there a little more congenially.
What "is on the Flames and their entitled owners"?
Nenshi was pretty dishonest in how he handled the rink. That whole infographic of the city contributing 1/3rd was a joke.
Nenshi doesn't want a new rink built. Maybe he listened to the voters, but probably not.
Calgary won't get a new deal to start building a rink until 2021 or later.
Jimmi McJenkins
Sometimes miracles
Are you confused, the public statements from the Flames that are tantamount to them being owed this from the City
With the crappy showing the Oilers are putting on the ice, at least this brings a smile to my face. Thanks Kelso.
Connor McFries
5-14-6-1
- Jan 9, 2008
- 3,379
- 204
As someone living in Calgary, the right choice was made. It was beyond clear who had a better vision for Calgary's future.
Well I mean there is more to a city than a rink and that almost seemed to be the only thing Bill Smith had going for him. It'll get built, they were just playing rough before the election.
SomeDudeOTI
Registered User
A deal will get done, it just won't be "build it for us, give us the keys, don't charge us tax and oh yeah.. make the lrt free"
On the other hand, maybe they'll wait 4 years and try again.
On the other hand, maybe they'll wait 4 years and try again.
rboomercat90
Registered User
For an organization that made such a big deal about claiming they weren’t trying to interfere in the civic election, they sure did try hard to interfere in the civic election. Not sure why they felt the need to publicly deny their intentions. When you start lying about something so obvious it makes it impossible to trust anything else you say.
frag2
Registered User
- Mar 8, 2006
- 19,221
- 7,368
Did you miss the initial Flames proposal?
www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/report-details-flames-demands-feb-21-arena-proposal/
They obviously wanted almost everything paid for by the city and even their subsequent proposals never felt like a partnership between the city and the organization. I dont think Nenshi doesn't want a rink built; just not at the terms the Flames want where the city covers almost everything and gets nothing in return.
What the Flames want is essentially what Katz got with the Ice District.
The part in bold is just dishonest.
Yes but they are completely different scenarios.
The city needed a catalyst to bring developers and people downtown. Building Rogers helped the city by creating a crap ton of property tax revenue and bringing other construction downtown and bringing people down here too.
They want to build the new Calgary arena pretty much beside the old one. There is no benefit there for the city.
Edmonton's deal is an outlier and it turning out well is not the norm.
What is this ton of property tax in Edmonton? The biggest new building, beside the rink, is Edmonton Tower. Biggest tenant in the tower is the City of Edmonton. The City basically abandoned two buildings that pretty much sit empty now to move into Edmonton Tower.
Edmonton deal only worked because the city was willing to put in a ton of money.
It's the City of Calgary who wants to build the new arena basically beside the Saddledome. CalgaryNext would clean up some good land in the West Village. Huge ton of money, but much more economic value to the city than building close to the Stampede grounds.
The West Village needs to go with what 200mill+ just to make the site usable?
Do you not see all the buildings being built in the ice district? Stantec, condos, new retail the actual district itself? None of that would be under construction without the arena deal because there wouldn't be any draw downtown. It sparked downtown growth.
That wouldn't happen in either Calgary spot. Victoria Park would be the cheapest and make the most sense but the funding model doesn't work.
The combined Stadium/Hockey rink in West Village could be cool but it's super costly and like I said, just making the site usable would be incredibly expensive.
The Edmonton funding model really doesn't work in most places, Edmonton was a unique case.
Are you going with a spark for growth or the cheapest model?
West Village makes sense to spark growth, but not the cheapest. Cleaning up the West Village is something the city of Calgary needs to do eventually.
Calgary doesn't need new office towers. Edmonton didn't really either.
I don't see how government money for Rogers was good, but not for a rink in Calgary.
I've explained it tons of time.
The downtown core was a wasteland here. Nothing to do except work for 9-5 then people went home. For a big cities Downtown it was rubbish. The city could no bring investment here, businesses didn't want to put offices here, people didn't want to live downtown etc.
Then Rogers Place came along. Big co do developers started buying land and building condo towers, the Ice District is bringing in tons of retail, hotels etc.
This isn't something that will happen in west village. Rogers Place worked because it was downtown, and it finally gave developers the incentive to build downtown.
I've lived in the downtown area for 8 years. Place was trash. The "mall" closed at 6, after 6pm the entire core was just the rough crowd and the homeless. There was nothing to do, nothing to see.
Since Rogers place started being built there is always tons more to do. Lots of people, good energy etc. That wasn't here before and in a cities downtown core it was sad.
West Village doesn't have the same potential because it is out of the way. It doesn't already have tons of office towers etc.
If you can't see it I don't know what else to tell you.
The money for the rink in Edmonton sparked development in an important part of Edmonton that needed revitalization.
That will not happen in the 2 sites in Calgary, especially not to the same extent.
My point is not that government money should not be used, its that the same funding model does not work because the benefit to the city as a whole would be far less.
It's why most publically funded arenas are usually a sunk cost and a bad idea.
Edmonton is literally a very rare scenario. It's why people don't like using it as an example.
It's all about return on investment and the deal in Calgary would see little to no return on investment in anyway.
Last edited by a moderator:
oXo Cube
Power Play Merchant
I personally find it funny that the Flames seem to think that 'But that's what Edmonton got!!1' is a valid argument for anything.
The money that the city of Edmonton will pour into the Rogers deal is many times more than what Calgary proposed with their third/third/third infographic.
You are dead wrong with the ROI argument. The City of Edmonton is paying out of market rental prices for the Edmonton tower lease, plus the CRL concessions and the demolition of Northlands.
The City of Calgary literally tried to count demolition of the Saddledome as part of their third of the new rink costs. Edmonton will pay to demolish Rexall and that wasn't even calculated in part of the demolition.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dude you are literally looking at a slice of the picture that's it.
Stantec Tower- Only being built because of Rogers Place. That's property taxes.
300,000 square feet of retail - That's property taxes for revenue.
The JW Marriot- big old hotel which will bring property taxes.
Numerous new condos in the area due to downtown becoming a destination.
All this is literally happening because of Rogers place. Without it none of this is happening.
Your view of it is only on the outside. You see fixated on Rogers Place and the Edmonton Tower and that's it. You are not looking at the economic impact and the other development that developers gave the green light to because of the arena.
That will not happen in West Village. It won't happen by the Saddledome.
That's the part of the economic impact and the ROI.
I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I just have explained this like 3 times already and you seem to be ignoring 90% of the development and shrugging your shoulders.
An actual ROI would look at the actual investment from the cities involved. The City of Edmonton will invest three to four times what the City of Calgary proposed when you count lease payments, LRT expenses and demolition costs.
You would expect three to four times the return. JW Marriott is a white elephant already. The condos actually in the entertainment district count towards the rink. The other condos in the area, Q and Fox were in construction, or built before the rink was approved.
Take an honest look at the return and do it without being insulting.
Last edited by a moderator:
