I don't know...I saw the same player in junior & with team Canada, than I did with the Montreal Canadiens.
Yes he was on pace for 20pts in the NHL at 20, but you've often mentioned (and so have I) that we can't put too much stock in numbers put up by unproven players when there's nothing to play for. Leblanc played with the Habs his first year when they had an awful year (Cunneyworth year).
So yeah, he looked decent but that sample was small and skewed. His game, IMO, never progressed from that point. Is that exclusively on Lefebvre? Maybe, i'm not convinced...not when I always questioned his desire to actually play pro hockey.
well you should have seen the same player in the Q, WJC's and with the Habs cause his game was always the same. Hard working two way player. But after playing a couple seasons under Lefebvre his game was night and day, he looked like a shell of himself. Now is that on Lefebvre? Maybe he just didn't have the desire who knows but I do question the development side when he's one of our best players in the AHL and then he looks like shit under a different coach. I've said everyone involved shares the blame, Leblanc, management, Timmins, Lefebvre.
As for small sample size yes it was a bad year but he did play half a season (42 games) and didn't look out of place. Just seems odd that he was playing so well in Hamilton under Jodoin but under Lefebvre all the sudden he's not getting playing time, PP time, just doesn't make sense why you would take your 1st round pick that just came off a a very solid rookie year in the AHL and you have the worst PP in the league yet you replace him with terrible players. For me there is certainly some blame for Lefebvre here the question is how much.
I was never a big Beaulieu fan and I know you weren't either...but having watched him with the Seadogs, he like Leblanc, is a player who just hasn't progressed. He's the same player today that he was in juniors.
In juniors, he got by on his skating and the fact he played on some very good teams...as he moved up to professional ranks, his game didn't progress and the competition around him got better.
We don't agree as Leblanc's game regressed hard, Beaulieu just didn't progress so I wouldn't compare them. I just think it reflects poorly on the development side that imo he was playing his best when with Gonchar. I guess I just assume that a former NHL defensemen would be able to work with defensemen to make them better. But I've said all along there is a lot of blame to go around. Management for calling him up too soon, yo-yoing, MT benching him, Timmins and his staff, Beaulieu.
But it's hard to understand what went wrong as last year he puts up 28 pts in 74 games. That's a career high for Petry before this year, so clearly that's good production. So after playing over 200 NHL games he at least looked like he was going to be able to be a decent 5th type that puts up some points but just makes poor decisions. So had he done that again this year, things don't look as bad with him.
So we agree here...problem was less coaching/development and more with the drafting of the player itself?
the Habs moved UP to draft Tinordi, passing over an Evgeny Kuznetsov...this was a drafting mistake, yes, with the power of hindsight that's easy to say, not saying otherwise, but this is what scouts are paid to do. Not just identify the best junior aged players, anyone can do that, but they're paid to project into the future.
No we don't agree here. I think all parties involved are to blame. Timmins, Tinordi, management, MT, Lefebvre. Now I don't know what was said to the kid but whoever told him it was a good idea to fight was giving him bad advice. Now granted his puck handling skills were so bad that's on the scouting but as I said I give them more of a pass as around that time who would have thought a 6'6 physical bluliner with solid mobility would not be sought after years later.
Yes they made a huge mistake at the draft in moving up to get him but they should never have called him up so soon. MT should have given him more of a rope to make mistakes. Lefebvre again I just look at a former NHL defensemen and think they should be able to help them but Tinordi didn't progress. He could never find consistency so for me right or wrong I put some of the blame on Lefebvre.
Yes, he was certain yanked around to much, brought over too soon...so definitely a developmental issue here. But it looks like he turned a bit of a corner in the AHL last year, he had a strong finish and this year, when he was finally given a shot, he performed pretty well when you consider the circumstances.
We'll see where he's at next year...but he's going to play for Sweden at the WC's, I don't think you or I or anyone could of predicted that last year.
Seems like progress to me.
He looked his best in the NHL at 19 imo, that's troubling. Yes he's progressed this year after spending a full season in the NHL but how much was that due to the late in season play? We'll see what happens to him next year and clearly it's not all on Lefebvre as that's a common theme. For me the drafting/development go hand in hand and management calling this kids up too soon is part of the problem. I think it's a very big part, since I feel that hockey is mostly mental, that messing with a kids confidence is very dangerous.
Fair point - but development has to be about more than just putting players on specific lines...
When I look at McCarron, I see a guy who is going to be a 4th liner in the NHL, maybe a 3rd if he puts it all together...that seems in line with what he was described to be when he was drafted.
He was described as a long term prospect who if he rounded out his game, could contribute in a bottom 6 role and that's likely the role he's going to play next year.
Busted development? Or are we getting what we drafted?
I lean on the latter.
Yes there's more to development then lines. But just like the NHL you want to put your players in a position to succeed. Give them the help they need. Try to build up their confidence. McCarron looks night and day to what he did. He's regressed hard, that's on Lefevbre. Now once again I blame everyone. Management, Timmins, McCarron, Lefebvre.
I don't disagree - I just don't know how much could of reasonably have been expected from guys like Crisp. You draft a guy whose a plug in juniors, what do you expect him to be at the next level?
All in all, I think we're on the same page...you just tend to put more weight in the coaching/developmental side and I put more weight in the draft philosophy of the Habs.
In the grand scheme of things, we're all talking about needing changes to the amateur side of things.
it's very likely that Crisp was just a bad pick, just that I tend to give more of a pass when they miss so much development time to injury. More of a you just never know what might of happened had they not been injured.
For me I place equal weight on drafting/development I guess as I haven't really thought about it. I continue to say that the blame is on all the above. It starts with drafting, it then moves to development and then when management calls them up too soon and finally on the player himself for not improving on the areas he needed to.
It's just that I know Timmins has proven in the past he can find talent, but I often hated the decisions Lefebvre would make, or even listening to him talk hockey. I just never cared for him or the job he did. I have been very strongly against managements need to call up players too soon, which imo plays a big part in the problems. Yes if you make a mistake at the draft table, it's not very likely to be fixed at any stage of development, by management or the player. But if more of the problems are how they are handled then imo development plays a bigger role in the problems we are having.
