Strategies to beat Vegas?

Jets4Life

Registered User
Dec 25, 2003
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Westward Ho, Alberta
Geez....if we think Vegas is hard to defeat this year, just wait for the upcoming years. They have plenty of cap room, and a slew of draft picks they acquired with teams during the expansion draft. Vegas is set to succeed for the foreseeable future. Get used to Vegas as one of our main arch-rivals.
 
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Channelcat

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Feb 8, 2013
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Here it is, Buff brings way more positive to the Jets than otherwise, a simple lay person knows that. This year in particular he was a net positive for the Jets for all of the time he spends on the ice. You choose to ignore 95% of what happens when Buff is on the ice and make grandiose statements about goals being entirely his fault and citing some isolated incidents that apparently in your view cost Jets games.

Buff is what he is, not a defensive wizard but underated in his ability to control the game between the blue lines and in how he keeps the Jets moving forward. Anyone remotely familiar with the Jets knows he is a risk/reward type player and in the long run, particularly this year, it was reward.

Those wbo criticize Buff, like yourself always love to point he high event plays he's often unvolved in, mainly beause he logs so many minutes, and portray him in a largely negative light. It's simply inaccurate and is the definition of observation bias.

I don't wear homer goggles, I know what Buff is, what he's good at, what he's not. At the end of the day I know he's an essential part of the Jets in the next couple of years and they rely heavily on him. He's an incredibly unique player.

Talking about knocking guys sticks out of their hands and pointing to 1-100 whiffed shots as bad parts of Buff' game, illustrates where you're coming from.
I think maybe the coaches got caught in a bit of a trap, chasing Vegas and overplaying Buff. He played his best hockey doing 20minutes, then they upped it in the playoffs and you start seeing the fatigue errors again.
 
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Channelcat

Unhinged user
Feb 8, 2013
18,026
14,031
Canada
Geez....if we think Vegas is hard to defeat this year, just wait for the upcoming years. They have plenty of cap room, and a slew of draft picks they acquired with teams during the expansion draft. Vegas is set to succeed for the foreseeable future. Get used to Vegas as one of our main arch-rivals.
Ya, I get a kick out of the guys saying "enjoy it cuz it will never happen again". lol. We havent even seen their best players yet. Hope the teams enjoy thier share of that 550M, they'll need it with Vegas kicking their asses for the next 8 years.
 

Ducky10

Searching for Mark Scheifele
Nov 14, 2014
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I think maybe the coaches got caught in a bit of a trap, chasing Vegas and overplaying Buff. He played his best hockey doing 20minutes, then they upped it in the playoffs and you start seeing the fatigue errors again.
That's fair, although other than his big whiff I didn't see a ton of errors. He looked gassed like a lot of them though.
 
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Ducky10

Searching for Mark Scheifele
Nov 14, 2014
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Whatever you might think of Buff that's fine. Yet it still doesn't change anything I said earlier, not anymore it does about how he played in the game four where nearly all his flaws were exposed in the open like a cracked egg. Not surprised you so hastily turned the page, didn't want to look back and didn't want to analyze those efforts you quite clearly said I over-exaggerated just one post before.

Now the original point I made was that decision making wasn't his best asset and that it clearly shows in the powerplay formation. Otherwise I haven't ever really criticized the man in the past (only remember being frigging furious after that one game against Vegas). I also never said he cannot be a good player especially when he has a good day. Likewise, at the same time, if he has a bad day, it's something not easily ignored. Buff also has a bad habit of spending a lot of time in the penalty box (which again partly reflects upon his ability to make calls on the ice). The bottom line is that he would do be much better suited for PP2 that could use his cannon of a shot, which clearly PP1 does not need as you rather have Laine or Scheifele doing the shooting. He definitely isn't underrated in regards to his ability to control the powerplay. Quite the contrary, people rarely even talk about it. Apart from the powerplay, Buff would suit much better in a #2D type of a role with little less responsibilities but still getting enough ice time. I do expect him to make way for Trouba should he stay in the team (although I'd still prefer Morrisey on the 1st PP). At the end, while I don't think he is #1D caliper NHL player with modern standards, he has been very important piece in the franchise these past years and I can respect that.

Again, you assume that people who criticize Byfuglien are biased/prejudiced, which couldn't be further away from the truth. At the same time you just dodge at all the given details or examples. To me it sounds like you're trying to discredit the poster with these attempts that also derail the debate. Personally I don't hate nor dislike any player in the team. Why would I? I don't know any of these players in person. So it doesn't only sound but actually is ludicrous to make such claims especially when one doesn't have a long history of gunning down a player (making assessments of usage on special units makes an extremely weak case). I just make observations and I'm not afraid to bring them out in the open. I assume this is what most posters do and it's also something you're supposed to do here. This reminds me awful lot like the debate about the ELL where I argued that Little, Laine and Ehlers were a bad match and you kept shooting bullets at Laine and in the end it turned out that they indeed were just a dysfunctional combination.
Because you keep claiming his decision making is slow, doesn't actually make it correct, that's all. I disagree entirely with it and think it's way off base. You can condescend about me watching more hockey all you like, I'll take my eye over whatever it is you're seeing, no problem.

Buff is not the issue with the 1st PP unit, there is no issue with the 1st PP unit, it was one of the best in the league, Against the Knights they just couldn't break through, had lots of opportunities but if you want to insist it had a lot to do with Buff missing chances to tee up Laine, have at it, it's not really accurate.. The formation the Jets run on PP1 completely suits Buff's shot, teams have to respect it and they do, which many times this season opened up room for Wheeler, Laine and Scheifele. He's largely a decoy in that formation, I don't see a big issue with his puck distribution. It's an antiquated notion that people believe the point man is the QB on the PP, they simply aren't in the formation the Jets run, which is common throughout the league. Wheeler ran the PP pretty damn well this season but when that unit is struggling it's largely because of his decision making, not Buff's. He's already started to make way for Trouba in many areas, but Trouba is not a better option on the PP, sorry. He's also not a better option right now in pushing the Jets offense in the same way Buff does, but I do see that coming more and we've already seen the minutes between the two of them start to equalize more. Buff played more against Vegas because they needed to score goals, that's all. Penalties? His penalties were way down this season and while he takes some dumb ones (like Wheeler), he also gets called for a lot of bullshit if you ask me. Buff's discipline was not an issue this year at all.




The first goal in game 4 being entirely Buff's fault? Yeah, try again, it was a PP for god's sake, Buff didn't have "a guy". Both he and Wheeler over-pursued up top, although I'll give both of them credit for actually pressuring a puck on that PK the Jets run. Wheeler is on the wrong side of the ice because he is the one most out of position, he lets the pass go back door to Marchessault and then Scheifele, who was still down low, decides to come across and help Chiarot, leaving Karlsson wide open, terrible read. The whole thing was a cluster f*** from the face-off but yeah, Buff's fault, so predictable.

As far as the ELL debate went, more misstated "facts". My only engagement in that conversation was to defend Little, and I still stand by it. Yes the line lacked chemistry but at the time Maurice didn't have many options to put between Laine and Ehlers that could at least have the line hold water defensively. The degree to which people were ignorantly lighting up Bryan Little was ridiculous, but hey people are entitled to their opinions. I'll still stand by what I said about Laine back then, which was not shooting bullets at him. It was basically the same as what you claim to do, call a spade a spade, his play deserved some rightful criticism in certain areas and that's what was done. See how that works?

And yes, I do think that a lot of people who criticise Buff are biased, towards the way he plays the game, not because they don't like him. You keep trying to twist this into some hate type of thing, it's misguided. People have observational biases based on their pre-conceived notions, you concluding that Buff cost the Jets game 4 because of a positional mistake, shared by two other players, which encompassed all of 10 seconds of a game he played more than 25 minutes in, is a textbook example.
 
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sipowicz

The thrill is gone
Mar 16, 2011
31,549
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Everyone said it was all Fleury but aside from the two saves on two real quick shots from Schief in game 2-3? was Fleury really tested, most of the Jets shots came from the perimeter and we're for the most part routine saves, Jets never had traffic in front of Fleury which made it easy on him and the Jets never were able to penetrate the middle of the ice.
 

Board Bard

Dane-O-Mite
Jun 7, 2014
7,888
5,055
Ya, I get a kick out of the guys saying "enjoy it cuz it will never happen again". lol. We havent even seen their best players yet. Hope the teams enjoy thier share of that 550M, they'll need it with Vegas kicking their asses for the next 8 years.

Vegas already cost the Jets revenue from at least 2 and perhaps 4 SCF games. So that's a third of the Jets' expansion take down the drain in one try.
 
Jun 15, 2013
5,561
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Winnipeg
Everyone said it was all Fleury but aside from the two saves on two real quick shots from Schief in game 2-3? was Fleury really tested, most of the Jets shots came from the perimeter and we're for the most part routine saves, Jets never had traffic in front of Fleury which made it easy on him and the Jets never were able to penetrate the middle of the ice.

I don't know what you were watching but this happened. Utter dominance by the Jets. Everyones eyes test should have seen this.
Screen Shot 2018-05-23 at 11.40.43 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-05-23 at 11.42.59 AM.png
 

kelsier

Registered User
Aug 17, 2013
4,280
1,741
Because you keep claiming his decision making is slow, doesn't actually make it correct, that's all. I disagree entirely with it and think it's way off base. You can condescend about me watching more hockey all you like, I'll take my eye over whatever it is you're seeing, no problem.

Buff is not the issue with the 1st PP unit, there is no issue with the 1st PP unit, it was one of the best in the league, Against the Knights they just couldn't break through, had lots of opportunities but if you want to insist it had a lot to do with Buff missing chances to tee up Laine, have at it, it's not really accurate.. The formation the Jets run on PP1 completely suits Buff's shot, teams have to respect it and they do, which many times this season opened up room for Wheeler, Laine and Scheifele. He's largely a decoy in that formation, I don't see a big issue with his puck distribution. It's an antiquated notion that people believe the point man is the QB on the PP, they simply aren't in the formation the Jets run, which is common throughout the league. Wheeler ran the PP pretty damn well this season but when that unit is struggling it's largely because of his decision making, not Buff's. He's already started to make way for Trouba in many areas, but Trouba is not a better option on the PP, sorry. He's also not a better option right now in pushing the Jets offense in the same way Buff does, but I do see that coming more and we've already seen the minutes between the two of them start to equalize more. Buff played more against Vegas because they needed to score goals, that's all. Penalties? His penalties were way down this season and while he takes some dumb ones (like Wheeler), he also gets called for a lot of bull**** if you ask me. Buff's discipline was not an issue this year at all.




The first goal in game 4 being entirely Buff's fault? Yeah, try again, it was a PP for god's sake, Buff didn't have "a guy". Both he and Wheeler over-pursued up top, although I'll give both of them credit for actually pressuring a puck on that PK the Jets run. Wheeler is on the wrong side of the ice because he is the one most out of position, he lets the pass go back door to Marchessault and then Scheifele, who was still down low, decides to come across and help Chiarot, leaving Karlsson wide open, terrible read. The whole thing was a cluster **** from the face-off but yeah, Buff's fault, so predictable.

As far as the ELL debate went, more misstated "facts". My only engagement in that conversation was to defend Little, and I still stand by it. Yes the line lacked chemistry but at the time Maurice didn't have many options to put between Laine and Ehlers that could at least have the line hold water defensively. The degree to which people were ignorantly lighting up Bryan Little was ridiculous, but hey people are entitled to their opinions. I'll still stand by what I said about Laine back then, which was not shooting bullets at him. It was basically the same as what you claim to do, call a spade a spade, his play deserved some rightful criticism in certain areas and that's what was done. See how that works?

And yes, I do think that a lot of people who criticise Buff are biased, towards the way he plays the game, not because they don't like him. You keep trying to twist this into some hate type of thing, it's misguided. People have observational biases based on their pre-conceived notions, you concluding that Buff cost the Jets game 4 because of a positional mistake, shared by two other players, which encompassed all of 10 seconds of a game he played more than 25 minutes in, is a textbook example.

Yes, his decision-making progress definitely isn't one of his strong suits and if you cannot analyze the game situations on the powerplay even when they are often presented to you later on a replay, then too bad. I'm starting to wonder if this has more to do with just defending <insert player> for whatever personal bonds as opposed to what is actually real and what has actually happened. However, you don't have to agree with this and it is by all means fine if you think he is armored with a high hockey IQ & vision, elite decision making compared to other top defenders or rather, quarterbacks in the league.

When you have Scheifele, Wheelers, Laine and (later on) Stastny in your powerplay unit, it's almost impossible for it not to work and of course it's inevitable that you get some actual real good results, no matter who the fifth player is. That doesn't mean it couldn't be better and that was my point in the begin with. Buff is the odd piece out yet nevertheless, as long as he is capable of feeding Wheelers (essentially just moving the puck along the wall) which is an easy task for any player really, you're bound to get assists and Blake is more than capable of handling the playmaking tasks in the formation. Nevertheless I think Laine's shot is so lethal that it would be better to get the cross ice pass near the blueline for that shot more often than it's actually happening. I take it that you didn't notice but Buff did actually get better at it towards the end. At first whenever he executed the pass to Laine it was oftentimes so slow that you could eat popcorn in between and not miss a beat. Still, that "thinking process" whenever receiving the puck is the problem and it still happened even at the very end.

Ha, you really think the other teams gave a damn about Buff's shot when they had Laine and Scheifele to worry about? Guess again. Yeah he has a cannon but as high as he can clock it, the shot actually is not at all that accurate. If anything, they were hoping for him to take the shot, cause if he did at least that would mean there would be less chance for Scheifele or Laine taking it. Also you do realize that it took him for near half a season just to net one single goal? Yes, 33 games and when he actually potted a goal we had already passed the New Years. The last goal before that? March 30th 2017 against the Ducks. Despite of playing in one of the best powerplay units in the league, he definitely proposed minimal offensive risk and I cannot but be baffled where you come up with this "fear factor" argument.

Now if you read again what I said, I think I stated it pretty clearly that I'd much rather have Morrisey there rather than Bufyglien or even Trouba, and yes, I'm well aware of the transition phase happening in the Jets blue line and Buff no longer is playing near the same minutes he did in 16-17, which is a very good thing. Also I never claimed that the man wasn't a good offensive defenceman because he is, but not in the way that would be beneficial for PP1. The mix of size, skating and puck protection skills build a foundation for this where he can power his way into the offensive zone. Yet when you already have two line drives perfectly capable of executing clean zone entries, that becomes less essential. No problems with discipline whatsoever? Are you frigging kidding me? Here, have a look:

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/winnipeg-jets-team-stats?season=2017&category=PENALTIES&time=0

He's leading the Jets in penalty minutes and it's not even a competition. He has 112 penalty minutes when the next player (Wheelers) has 52. That means he has been on the bench over twice more than the next "best" player. He accomplished this while playing 12 less games than Wheelers. Yet that's not a concern to the slightest? M'kay.

Now as for the mentioned game against the Vegas, as I said his contribution in those goals against was pretty significant. You and pretend it wasn't but I think that's just intellectual dishonesty. He was on the ice when the s*** hit the fan making terrible calls all day long. Sure, I'm not here stating that other players had great games or that they didn't share some of the blame. That's never what I argued. There's really not much else to be said there, everyone saw what happened and I doubt many have forgotten.

As for the good old ELL debate. What happened again immediately after both Laine and Ehlers were moved to play with another center? I seem to recall both of their games elevating to another level where Laine went on insane hot streak shooting his way all the way up to the Rocket Richard race and finishing 2nd. How did it go with Little? He seemed to continue to have the same on ice issues and his season never really took off no matter who he played with. So looking back now, was the odd man out Little or Laine? It's actually quite funny to think about it because all the s*** they all got, you spent a lot of time shuffling that on Laine and making excuse after another for Little. I seem to recall Little having only one line combination where he could get some consistent effective output and that's just not good when he is the man expecting to center second line for a team that is a serious playoffs contender.

I'm not twisting anything here. You clearly said that I didn't like him and that I was biased. There's no misunderstandings there as these were your own words. Yet I have nothing against Buff. I merely said that he wasn't the most perfect fit for the first PP unit and I stand behind that statement. Of course the discussion has expanded since, which it often does as you analyze players and have to go to the very detail. When you see people pointing out the same things or criticizing him for other on ice affairs, perhaps they do this because they are onto something? I really seriously doubt that any Jets fan here would try to look flaws or otherwise discredit their own players out of sheer fun. However whatever the case, you just can't go on calling everyone biased because they criticize aspects in a game of a player you happen to like and take it personal when it happens.
 

SUX2BU

User of registers
Feb 6, 2018
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Now that everyone has come down to earth, and acknowledges Vegas for the great team that they are --this is what we'll need to beat them.

1) We absolutely need support scoring from our 2nd and 3rd lines --where has Laine, Ehlers, Little and Perrault been ?? Perrault missed a wide open net tonight--all he had to do was flip the puck over the pads ?? We're paying this guy $ 4 mil a year--I think Chevy should think of trading him.

2) We have to play a full hard 60 minutes, just like Vegas does. We can't come out half asleep in the 1st period and get behind early and have to chase the game.

3) I'd like to see Morrow put in to replace Enstrom--and not because I think Toby has been bad defensively -- I think Morrow has a great shot, and we may get a couple goals from him in this series.Our back end scoring is great, and we should use it. Morrow is also a great skater.

4) I noticed Buff and Myers had strong games -- and we should use our point shots a lot more than we do --like with Myers, Buff and Trouba, and Morrissey -- just the way Nashville does.

5) We're getting good enough Goaltending--Helle made a mistake that cost us a goal tonight-- but otherwise he's been as good as Fleury--who has been great.

In summary --we really have to come out with a 100% effort all game and play desperate hockey. If we lose the next game and go down 3-1 -- chances are Vegas takes the series in 6. We'll now see what kind of poise and character this Jet's team has -- now that we're behind and the "chips are on the table"--it becomes who wants it more ???

The Jet's have the talent to win this series-"have to put it all together." :thumbu:

6) kick the knight doing dinner place theatre in the prunes ....

D-grade acting at its finest
 

SUX2BU

User of registers
Feb 6, 2018
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Just the luck of being in the central the toughest division so I don't know how teams overcome that. But Nashville made it to the finals last year. Don't remember when a central team last won it.

Chicago 2015

My apologies if someone else responded earlier just getting through this thread now
 

sting13

Registered User
Jul 30, 2011
1,310
382
Geez....if we think Vegas is hard to defeat this year, just wait for the upcoming years. They have plenty of cap room, and a slew of draft picks they acquired with teams during the expansion draft. Vegas is set to succeed for the foreseeable future. Get used to Vegas as one of our main arch-rivals.
I would disagree with this as Vegas will be different. What made them a success this year was career 3rd and 4th liners playing clutch and grab defensive hockey. When the top draft picks Glass, Suzuki etc. come on board in another year they do not play a clutch and grab defensive style. They will have to change the system they play for these guys. They will be a different team down the road.
 

Board Bard

Dane-O-Mite
Jun 7, 2014
7,888
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I would disagree with this as Vegas will be different. What made them a success this year was career 3rd and 4th liners playing clutch and grab defensive hockey. When the top draft picks Glass, Suzuki etc. come on board in another year they do not play a clutch and grab defensive style. They will have to change the system they play for these guys. They will be a different team down the road.

Or the new guys could add talent, play as hard as the rest of the team, and the Knights will be better.
 
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Saintb

Registered User
May 5, 2016
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They transition from defence to offence with lightening speed. I just don't know how they do it so effortlessly.
 

Eyeseeing

Fagheddaboudit
Sponsor
Feb 24, 2015
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We LET Vegas abuse Scheifele who was our biggest weapon.
Still almost a week later wondering why we never made Vegas pay??
I guess we take this as a learning process and see if we learn.
I think the Caps win because Wilson will make one of theirs pay m.
We just did not have answers.
The advance stats people might say we outplayed them and 9/10 we’d win...you only get one chance and we did not adapt or change.. shame really
 
Jun 15, 2013
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And yet we got eliminated and lost 4 straight.
This is where advanced stats are cold consolation

Teams have been outshooting teams for decades yet losing due to a hot goalie.

This can be even more apparent as in todays NHL the best team doesn't always win. It's what happens when there's parity. Game's are often a coin flip.

Jet's lost 4 straight, 3-1, 4-2, 3-2, 2-1. A lucky bounce, a mental lapse, a fanned shot & a double deflection are the easy plays to point out on the defensive side. On the offensive side we ran into Fleury.

Of course there's no consolation in these facts. Sometimes you play well & you lose .
 

Robinson2187

Registered Schmoozer
Nov 22, 2015
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Everyone said it was all Fleury but aside from the two saves on two real quick shots from Schief in game 2-3? was Fleury really tested, most of the Jets shots came from the perimeter and we're for the most part routine saves, Jets never had traffic in front of Fleury which made it easy on him and the Jets never were able to penetrate the middle of the ice.
The idea that we lost the series because we were "goalied" does not tell the whole story. Yeah MAF was a factor but the guys also didn't have enough in the tank. Preds took too much out of them emotionally and physically.
 

DeepFrickinValue

Formally Ruffus
May 14, 2015
5,291
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Don't wear out your best players during the season. Moderation is the key.

This upcoming season will start off on the wrong foot with the games in fInland to start
 

Ducky10

Searching for Mark Scheifele
Nov 14, 2014
19,809
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The idea that we lost the series because we were "goalied" does not tell the whole story. Yeah MAF was a factor but the guys also didn't have enough in the tank. Preds took too much out of them emotionally and physically.
Fleury doesn't tell the whole story, just most of it. The fact remains, despite being gassed they were still in every game and lost by the narrowest of margins. The biggest margin going against them was in goal.
 

PhilJets

Winnipeg is Good
Jun 24, 2012
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Don't wear out your best players during the season. Moderation is the key.

This upcoming season will start off on the wrong foot with the games in fInland to start
True
Specially for the older players.

Jets run out gas, though vegas as a whole is a great team all around.

Vegas seems to score at will on most of the teams they played in the playoffs.
Except the Jets.
 

Tommigun

Registered User
Jan 5, 2018
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I think the rest element has been huge for Vegas. They've averaged only one loss per series in the playoffs, so they've gotten so much rest between series that they'll probably sweep the Capitals. Same thing against the Jets, they had only one or two days of rest while Vegas was off for like a week. It's a shame really that the two best teams in the league took each other out so lesser teams can take the trophy, and have a somewhat smooth sailing at that.
 
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raideralex99

Whiteout Is Coming.
Dec 18, 2015
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So instead of the Capitals being up a goal and going on the PP ... Reaves crosschecks the defender to the ice and scores the tying goal. It must be nice to get special treatment.
 

Maukkis

EZ4ENCE
Mar 16, 2016
10,559
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Everyone said it was all Fleury but aside from the two saves on two real quick shots from Schief in game 2-3? was Fleury really tested, most of the Jets shots came from the perimeter and we're for the most part routine saves, Jets never had traffic in front of Fleury which made it easy on him and the Jets never were able to penetrate the middle of the ice.
DdrAHtFUQAAeQ5s.jpg


Have a shot at being more wrong.
 

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