Discussion in 'NHL Draft - Prospects' started by Marc-E-, Sep 8, 2005.
Which one of two have the best upsides?
Stoa. He's just as skilled as Bertram, but is alot bigger and faster. Questions about his attitude kept him out of the draft, but he was really a top 20 talent.
and so was Bertram. Had he kept that torrid pace he would have been a consensus top 15 pick.
No, he wouldn't have. Bertram is small and not all that speedy. His fall was expected IMO.
He has excellent hands and plays with a distinctive edge, his top speed is above average but his first step acceleration is explosive. Remember, he was a freshman at the age of 17 and still put up ok numbers.
for one thing Stoa is not faster than Bertram...Bertram IMO was the 2nd fastest skater in the draft next to Cogliano. Bertram is the better player IMO, Stoa has alot of holes in his game, Bertram was a top 10 talent for the draft but due to Boston College being a horried place for rookies he feel in the rankings...look at Pineault the previous year and Bertram is better than what he was.
First of all, you're dead wrong on Bertram's skating ability. He doesn't have near the speed you're attributing to him. Second, Bertram's situation was quite a bit differant to Pineault's. Bertram played virtually the whole year on one of the top two lines while Pineault languished on the fourth. The reason Bertram dropped is because he's a small, perimeter player who isn't all that fast. Do the math.
I only saw them in the WU-18 games. But fwiw, Bertram certainly seemed to be the more proactive player. He certainly wasn't a perimeter guy at all, more of a buzzsaw who tried to use what weight he had as much as he could. He was frequently noticeable, energetic, dynamic, and while his skill and finishing ability didn't look great, he showed a lot more facets to his game than I ever thought he possessed. Stoa meanwhile... sort of blended in with the ice and the board advertising for me. If I didn't know I was supposed to pay attention to him as a potential 1st rounder, I would have overlooked him entirely. FWIW... one tournament worth of Bertram, a couple games worth of Stoa. Not very meaningful. Doesn't say anything about their upside. Mostly I just thought that my viewing of Bertram sort of clashed with what RR was saying.
I don't know where you've seen Bertram, but his speed and first step are excellent. He's even reasonably strong on the puck for a guy his size; certainly, his skating is his strongest attribute. From seeing him at the U18s and all of Canada's WJ summer evaluation camp, he is not shy at all about initiating contact or going into the dirty areas and battling. If anything, I would be more worried that he won't be able to sustain his style of play at a higher level at his size than him being a perimiter player. The problem I saw with him (other than the obvious size issue) was his offensive vision and puck skills were not great, and any ability to create offense came only from speed. To me Bertram was a surprise to fall THAT far, and had he played major junior last season he probably would have had a much more successful year and his draft stock would have likely remained high enough for him to be a first rounder at least. Stuck in college as an underaged rookie in a league of much bigger stronger players was not the best situation for him, it appears.
I was more impressed with Bertram at the under 18's then Stoa too and although i've heard the concerns about his skating before it looked fine to me in that tourney.I'd agree with ranger that he would'nt be looked at as an explosive skater but it did'nt strike me as a concern.But it looked like it bothered the scouts this past draft.He isn't very big either i'll grant you that.Stoa may have more potential overall all things considered.But i liked Bertram a lot from what i saw of him,skates and competes hard and has good skill.
I agree all the way on Stoa. He looks at times great, then he looks like a guy in a uniform and thats about it. I saw him play once when he played the gophers. He had one great scoring chance and he buried it. He played with Kessel and Mueller most of the year. That line pretty much dominated their opponets. Dont know if he is one of those i get bored at times guys because he has a big head or what. He reminds me of Barry Tallackson. Big, talented, great all around ability and no motivation. The gophers so far from what i have heard are pleased with how is coming along and that he has worked out this summer. Rumor right now is that he may play center. The gophers have 3 natural centers and need a forth. Hopefully the responsabilty will light a fire under him and he will perform to his skill.
As with freshman in the NCAA, ala Bertram. Bert had 17 points in 38 games. Chucko had 21 in 43. Yes they are very different players but points alone never tell a freshmans worth.
there was never concern with Bertrams skating...he was always a super fast great acceleration skater with top end skill. The only concern was with his size, but IMO a guy who competes with his heart and with the rule changes size is not a problem. People make too much of size and not enough about overall skill
I'm sure i've heard the "skating problem" concerning Bertram before.
Could be wrong.He did look like a good skater to me.
I have a slight bias here, but I think Stoa has more upside. That U-18 US National Team program is starting to pump out some fantastic players...
I never said he had a "skating problem." I said he's not all that fast, which he isn't. He certainly wasn't the 2nd fastest player in the draft. He's got a good first step, but for a smaller player (which he is) he doesn't have an elite seperation gear.
I should add that Bertram obviously has alot of ability. I've seen him play several times and he is clearly offensively gifted. My initial post in this thread was responding to the question at hand, which is who has the greater upside? I maintain it's Stoa because of his size and strength in addition to his elite skills. Saying that doesn't make Bertram a slouch.
Yeah,i get what you mean.
Stoa is an enigma. He can look excellent one game and terrible the next. He does have the tools that any pro scout would look for but I wouldn't be surprised if he never overcomes his inconsistancy. Barry Tallackson seems like an apt comparison at this point. Hopefully he'll pull it all together over his college career, unlike the latter.
Bertram wasn't ready for the college game last year but I believe he'll start to stand out more and more over the next few seasons and become a very good college player. How well his game ends up translating to the pros is something I'm less sure of at this point.
I can tell you Bertram looked pretty good at the Hawks Rookie camp last week. He got his nose dirty plenty. Very good acceleration & overall speed. Very good offensive skills as well.
Bertram will also be leaving boston college to go to the Vancouver Giants to play with his cousin.
All the stories I have seen on the 'net mention that he returned to Boston College at the conclusion of the Blackhawks prospects camp.