Status of The Florida Panthers

ucanthanzalthetruth

#CatsAreCooked
Jul 13, 2013
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Hi all,

Been ages since I posted on this topic as the matter was favorably settled in my favor almost exactly 2 years ago, but I noticed some main board posts and even posts on the Panthers board worrying, so I'm just making a post here I can link to (or others can link to) addressing the matter:

Year Annual Cumulative
1 2015 2016 12,000,000 12,000,000 18,000,000 Not Applicable
2 2016 2017 12,000,000 24,000,000 30,000,000 Not Applicable
3 2017 2018 10,000,000 34,000,000 40,000,000 Not Applicable
4 2018 2019 10,000,000 44,000,000 50,000,000 Not Applicable
5 2019 2020 8,000,000 52,000,000 58,000,000 Not Applicable
6 2020 2021 8,000,000 60,000,000 66,000,000 Not Applicable
7 2021 2022 6,000,000 66,000,000 72,000,000 Not Applicable
8 2022 2023 6,000,000 72,000,000 72,000,000 Not Applicable
9 2023 2024 4,000,000 76,000,000 72,000,000 72,000,000
10 2024 2025 4,000,000 80,000,000 64,000,000 64,000,000
11 2025 2026 2,000,000 82,000,000 56,000,000 56,000,000
12 2026 2027 2,000,000 84,000,000 48,000,000 48,000,000
13 2027 2028 2,000,000 86,000,000 40,000,000 40,000,000
Total Payments 86,000,000
Average Annual Payment 6,615,385

http://www.broward.org/Arena/Documents/ExecutiveSummary10-13-15.pdf

72 of the 86 million is paid out that 1st 8 years, and yes, you're reading that correctly, 12 million in taxpayer money is currently going to our clown owners. The buyout is the 72 million that was paid returned to the county.

Please note that the intention of this thread is not to turn into whether this is "fair" or "in the best interest of hockey" (though I don't doubt that's what it will turn into :laugh:) I am merely explaining how the Panthers are safe for several more seasons(2023), as well as providing an actual copy of the amended lease agreement confirming the same.

I was a frequent poster on this section until 2 years ago when there was (fortunately for me) no further reason to appear. I see the Coyotes threads are still going strong :laugh:
 
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Fenway

HF Bookie and Bruins Historian
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I will simply say the Panthers made a huge mistake a year ago when this happened in Raleigh.

image.0.jpeg


A year later who is laughing now.

I will state again that South Florida has terrible demographics for hockey and the location of the arena in Sunrise has hurt them. Wayne Huizenga wanted no part of Dade County and bet heavily on Broward and then walked away from sports and hockey was given to Alan Cohen. :help:

Panthers are now entering the snowbird part of the schedule and attendance will be fine through February.

2 years ago I thought the Panthers were ready to claim a spot at the adult table of South Florida sports but miscues by ownership have them back at the kiddie table.
 

BKIslandersFan

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Sep 29, 2017
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I will simply say the Panthers made a huge mistake a year ago when this happened in Raleigh.

image.0.jpeg


A year later who is laughing now.

I will state again that South Florida has terrible demographics for hockey and the location of the arena in Sunrise has hurt them. Wayne Huizenga wanted no part of Dade County and bet heavily on Broward and then walked away from sports and hockey was given to Alan Cohen. :help:

Panthers are now entering the snowbird part of the schedule and attendance will be fine through February.

2 years ago I thought the Panthers were ready to claim a spot at the adult table of South Florida sports but miscues by ownership have them back at the kiddie table.
I think Marlins having to dump Giancarlo Stanton for nothing (really more about how much they are in trouble really) makes me question whether Panthers AND ALL PRO SPORTS except Dolphins actually have long term future in Miami.
 
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Hoek

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Not to mention the utter failure to get an MLS team up and running for almost 5 years now after Beckham picked them, watching several other expansion teams pop up since. Miami feels cursed.
 

jkrdevil

UnRegistered User
Apr 24, 2006
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I live in downtown Miami within reasonable walking distance to American Airlines Arena (and where the old Miami Arena was where the Panthers used to play).

The Panthers play in the most inconvienant location in the Arena. Rush hour traffic on 95 is awful and if you want to go to a weeknight game it takes about an hour to get from the Business district in Miami to the Arena. And to get from downtown Ft. Lauderdale is about 45 minutes.

The bet in Broward was a huge mistake and because of the distance was almost akin to moving to a new market (removing the goodwill of ‘96). That they have been a dumpster fire and haven’t won a playoff series since hasn’t helped. Had they stayed in Miami proper and built AAA with the Heat the team would be much more successful.

Over course Downtown Miami when they moved wasn’t what it is today. And Miami itself is a tricky market because of much of the growth has been fueled by Foriegn investment. However I think there is enough here to build a sustainable franchise if management right.

Arena locations matter. Along with ownership and management. Of course a bad arena location caused by bad ownership can beget more bad management as savvy investors shy away.
 

jkrdevil

UnRegistered User
Apr 24, 2006
42,634
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Miami
I think Marlins having to dump Giancarlo Stanton for nothing (really more about how much they are in trouble really) makes me question whether Panthers AND ALL PRO SPORTS except Dolphins actually have long term future in Miami.

The Marlins situation is more about ownership that market. Loria was a swindler and the new group that bought doesn’t have the money. It’s a skeptical market because it has been burnt so many times by different ownership groups.
 

powerstuck

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Jan 13, 2012
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72 of the 86 million is paid out that 1st 8 years, and yes, you're reading that correctly, 12 million in taxpayer money is currently going to our clown owners. The buyout is the 72 million that was paid returned to the county.

The payment itself is a choice of the county and I guess it's citizens (thru votes).
But one has to question the leagues and the teams honesty when they ask for those heavily front loaded payments deals.
 

BKIslandersFan

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Sep 29, 2017
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The Marlins situation is more about ownership that market. Loria was a swindler and the new group that bought doesn’t have the money. It’s a skeptical market because it has been burnt so many times by different ownership groups.
Their attendance has never been great, though.
 

jkrdevil

UnRegistered User
Apr 24, 2006
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Miami
Their attendance has never been great, though.

You have to look at the situation. For the longest time they were is a suburban football stadium (think issues with Sunrise but with games every day) that had no covering leaving you exposed to the heat and sun if South Florida.

By the time a convienent stadium came (which was a political swindle itself), you had the sell offs of ‘98 and ‘05, which burned the marketplace.
 

tony d

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Jun 23, 2007
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Yeah, it's always been a team that you expected more from but they never can get it together consistently. As to off ice I figure they are the East team most likely to re-locate now that the Carolina situation seems to be resolved.
 

Howboutthempanthers

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I live in downtown Miami within reasonable walking distance to American Airlines Arena (and where the old Miami Arena was where the Panthers used to play).

The Panthers play in the most inconvienant location in the Arena. Rush hour traffic on 95 is awful and if you want to go to a weeknight game it takes about an hour to get from the Business district in Miami to the Arena. And to get from downtown Ft. Lauderdale is about 45 minutes.

The bet in Broward was a huge mistake and because of the distance was almost akin to moving to a new market (removing the goodwill of ‘96). That they have been a dumpster fire and haven’t won a playoff series since hasn’t helped. Had they stayed in Miami proper and built AAA with the Heat the team would be much more successful.

Over course Downtown Miami when they moved wasn’t what it is today. And Miami itself is a tricky market because of much of the growth has been fueled by Foriegn investment. However I think there is enough here to build a sustainable franchise if management right.

Arena locations matter. Along with ownership and management. Of course a bad arena location caused by bad ownership can beget more bad management as savvy investors shy away.
I don't know why this keeps being repeated. But the arena is closer to Broward and Palm Beach counties than an arena in Miami would be. So it's closer to more of South Florida than an arena in Miami would be. So it's being further from you in Miami, doesn't mean it's further from everybody.
 
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Sticksandsun

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Yeah, it's always been a team that you expected more from but they never can get it together consistently. As to off ice I figure they are the East team most likely to re-locate now that the Carolina situation seems to be resolved.
You don't think any other team is at risk before 2023?
 

jkrdevil

UnRegistered User
Apr 24, 2006
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Miami
I don't know why this keeps being repeated. But the arena is closer to Broward and Palm Beach counties than an arena in Miami would be. So it's closer to more of South Florida than an arena in Miami would be. So it's being further from you in Miami, doesn't mean it's further from everybody.

One, the team started in Miami and Miami-Dade is by far the most populous county in South Florida. To try and build away that population center to focus on Broward and Palm Beach is a mistake. Especially since West Palm Beach is further away from the arena than Miami is.

Second and most, most importantly though the arena is in an incovienant location for all three areas. It literally sits on the edge of the Everglades. You miss the exit to the arena and you are on Alligator Alley on the way to Naples.

If the arena was more central to the downtown Ft. Lauderdale, I would by you argument. Especially with the Tri-Rail and Brightline trains coming in better connecting the theee counties.
 
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Melrose Munch

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Mar 18, 2007
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Wish Viola would sell to Arison and the Panthers played in miami. Demolish Sunrise Arena.
I don't know why this keeps being repeated. But the arena is closer to Broward and Palm Beach counties than an arena in Miami would be. So it's closer to more of South Florida than an arena in Miami would be. So it's being further from you in Miami, doesn't mean it's further from everybody.
They're the hockey team representing Miami. They should play in Dade.
One, the team started in Miami and Miami-Dade is by far the most populous county in South Florida. To try and build away that population center to focus on Broward and Palm Beach is a mistake. Especially since West Palm Beach is further away from the arena than Miami is.

Second and most, most importantly though the arena is in an incovienant location for all three areas. It literally sits on the edge of the Everglades. You miss the exit to the arena and you are on Alligator Alley on the way to Naples.

If the arena was more central to the downtown Ft. Lauderdale, I would by you argument. Especially with the Tri-Rail and Brightline trains coming in better connecting the theee counties.
Agreed.
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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Ever since the deal was signed giving them subsidies, I don't recall any substantive discussion on this board about the Panthers relocating. Similar to when Glendale made the subsidy deal with the Coyotes. They didn't reemerge as a relocation candidate until the city voided the deal. So there is no need to panic (or hope depending on which side of the relocation debate you're on) until you get close to the out-clause date.
 
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Rob

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I think Marlins having to dump Giancarlo Stanton for nothing (really more about how much they are in trouble really) makes me question whether Panthers AND ALL PRO SPORTS except Dolphins actually have long term future in Miami.

Yes. It isn't just the NHL. Miami has been criticized for not being a sports town.

(no evil Canadian conspiracy here)
 
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willy702

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Jul 3, 2016
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Saying Miami demographics are questionable is utter nonsense. The arena is in a bad location, that's the real story. Broward is not a bad idea at all, but Sunrise is head scratching. The team is probably as well or better off being outside of the Miami core because it will always lose a competition with the Heat, especially with foreign born residents.

I think Miami as a whole is the same as most sun belt markets. They love winners and have loyalties that stray when the teams aren't winning. But you can't argue they won't fill seats when teams are winning. The Dolphins were a tough ticket for decades, the Heat filled the NBA's largest arena during the good years, and the U played to packed houses when they had to compete with the Dolphins being sold out. Just consider this market more leveraged to winning than most.
 

Fenway

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Miami ( South Florida ) really is a weak sports market by available metrics.

Sports radio listener numbers in a market are usually a good barometer and in South Florida the numbers are weak. Most markets have moved sports radio to FM but South Florida stays on AM

When you look at TV numbers, Palm Beach performs better for hockey than Dade and Broward combined.

upload_2017-12-11_0-9-25.png


upload_2017-12-11_0-11-52.png

upload_2017-12-11_0-13-41.png
 
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ucanthanzalthetruth

#CatsAreCooked
Jul 13, 2013
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Ever since the deal was signed giving them subsidies, I don't recall any substantive discussion on this board about the Panthers relocating. Similar to when Glendale made the subsidy deal with the Coyotes. They didn't reemerge as a relocation candidate until the city voided the deal. So there is no need to panic (or hope depending on which side of the relocation debate you're on) until you get close to the out-clause date.
Definitely, I just made this because I couldn't find the old thread and it will make a useful link for further inquiries.

You don't think any other team is at risk before 2023?
In the east with Carolina seemingly settled? No. TBH I'm already nervous about 2023 but it's too far away to think about now.
 
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Howboutthempanthers

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One, the team started in Miami and Miami-Dade is by far the most populous county in South Florida. To try and build away that population center to focus on Broward and Palm Beach is a mistake. Especially since West Palm Beach is further away from the arena than Miami is.

Second and most, most importantly though the arena is in an incovienant location for all three areas. It literally sits on the edge of the Everglades. You miss the exit to the arena and you are on Alligator Alley on the way to Naples.

If the arena was more central to the downtown Ft. Lauderdale, I would by you argument. Especially with the Tri-Rail and Brightline trains coming in better connecting the theee counties.
Miami has more populous than Broward or Palm Beach, but it does not have more populous than Broward and Palm Beach combined.
And the arena is real easy to get to, you take Oakland Park BLVD from I-95 and it takes you right to the thing.
And what you said made no sense, an arena in Miami is much further from Palm Beach than an arena in Broward is, who cares how far away an arena in Broward is from Palm Beach, it's still closer than Miami.
So Miami people have to do some traveling, so what. It's still better than Broward and Palm Beach people having to travel, and Palm Beach people having to travel the longest distance in either scenario.
 

Fenway

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Miami has more populous than Broward or Palm Beach, but it does not have more populous than Broward and Palm Beach combined.
And the arena is real easy to get to, you take Oakland Park BLVD from I-95 and it takes you right to the thing.
And what you said made no sense, an arena in Miami is much further from Palm Beach than an arena in Broward is, who cares how far away an arena in Broward is from Palm Beach, it's still closer than Miami.
So Miami people have to do some traveling, so what. It's still better than Broward and Palm Beach people having to travel, and Palm Beach people having to travel the longest distance in either scenario.

There is a perception that many in Broward and Palm Beach will not go into Dade for any reason.

The first time I ever went to Joe Robbie Stadium was in the fall of 1990 for a THURSDAY night football game between the Pats and Dolphins and traffic was brutal.

South Florida WANTED to embrace the Marlins in 1993 and they did sell 3,000,000 tickets but fans tired of the hassles of getting there.

The most memorable moment in the first year of the Marlins was a rain delay and Tim McCarver on WWOR-TV in New York captured it perfectly.

 

Melrose Munch

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Miami has more populous than Broward or Palm Beach, but it does not have more populous than Broward and Palm Beach combined.
And the arena is real easy to get to, you take Oakland Park BLVD from I-95 and it takes you right to the thing.
And what you said made no sense, an arena in Miami is much further from Palm Beach than an arena in Broward is, who cares how far away an arena in Broward is from Palm Beach, it's still closer than Miami.
So Miami people have to do some traveling, so what. It's still better than Broward and Palm Beach people having to travel, and Palm Beach people having to travel the longest distance in either scenario.
The tril rail goes right to downtown Miami. How many metro areas have rail service all day like the Miami Tri County does. Broward and Palm Beach are the suburbs. Hockey teams need to play downtown in order to make more money off concessions. Viola might consider when the lease is up in sunrise.
There is a perception that many in Broward and Palm Beach will not go into Dade for any reason.

The first time I ever went to Joe Robbie Stadium was in the fall of 1990 for a THURSDAY night football game between the Pats and Dolphins and traffic was brutal.

South Florida WANTED to embrace the Marlins in 1993 and they did sell 3,000,000 tickets but fans tired of the hassles of getting there.

The most memorable moment in the first year of the Marlins was a rain delay and Tim McCarver on WWOR-TV in New York captured it perfectly.

jeez, that`s brutal. But the Marlins have won twice since inception. Tampa Bay, Colorado, etc never have. Something has to give.
 

613Leafer

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May 26, 2008
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Why does attendance seem to be an issue for most Florida sports teams, when it's a state that has 20 million people in it (i.e. over half the population of Canada in an area that's about 1/5 the size of Ontario). I'd get if it was just hockey, but it doesn't seem to matter what sport it is, attendance is routinely an issue.

Tampa + Miami were last and third last in attendance last year in the MLB.
2017 MLB Attendance - Major League Baseball - ESPN

Jacksonville + Tampa were 26 & 27 last year for attendance in the NFL (21 and 28 if you go by % of stadium full)
2016 NFL Football Attendance - National Football League - ESPN

Miami + Orlando were 17th + 28th last year for attendance in the NBA
2016-2017 NBA Attendance - National Basketball Association - ESPN

Now to be fair, Tampa Bay Lightning in the NHL actually do seem to be doing pretty well for attendance these days, but Florida is still consistently near the bottom (5th worst last year), and when they made the playoffs with a very exciting young core of Ekblad, Huberdeau, Barkov, etc they were still 5th last.
List of National Hockey League attendance figures - Wikipedia
 

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