Standard Red Wing Operations Procedures

[Dotter]

Right. The difference is, for me, I knew that Miller was nothing special.
Landon Ferraro got 17 games over 3 seasons -- about 180 minutes -- to show anything.

You put a Ferraro in there for 40 games in a season. What does it hurt to see what you got?

The difference is you take too long to evaluate players. Ken Holland and management discovered this rather quickly with Ferraro and sent him packing. Ferraro, no matter how you slice it, is a bust. It's not Red Wings fault you can't evaluate talent quickly. That's why they get paid the big bucks and you and I are posting on a random hockey forum.

 

[HIFE]

...Sell Green+Booth+Witkowski and maybe more then run some kids full time post-TDL. Standard (good)rebuilding procedure, like Toronto did as an example.

You mean like last season post-TDL? Oh wait that's right, the Wings decided they could only rotate one Griffin at a time... to teach the kids "pride" lol. It's funny reading all the novel ideas put forward that were supposed to happen last season and still won't. Green, Booth, Witkowski- wow I guess the rebuild is on!

Comparing the sad state of the Wings to a team that dumped 1/2 their roster within one year and moved forward publicly with a legitimate sports rebuild is a low blow to a wounded fanbase. We have nothing in common with Toronto.

The only way we get off this hamster wheel is Holland gone, and not just moved upstairs.

 

[HIFE]

The difference is you take too long to evaluate players. Ken Holland and management discovered this rather quickly with Ferraro and sent him packing. Ferraro, no matter how you slice it, is a bust. It's not Red Wings fault you can't evaluate talent quickly. That's why they get paid the big bucks and you and I are posting on a random hockey forum.

I'm never sure if you're trolling half the time or what. The Red Wings evaluate talent quickly?

Jurco 159 GP
Pulkkinen 67 GP
Marchenko 110 GP
Emmerton 139 GP
Andersson 205 GP
Ouellet 123 GP
Lashoff 123 GP
Kindl 273 GP

Should we add Frk and Jensen to the list?

If anything Ferraro and the other 1st/2nd round picks (Smith, Kindl, Sheahan, McCollum) that brought nothing special in return is an indictment of Holland's mediocre drafting. I do give the Wings credit for more quickly pulling the plug on say Sproul and Wilson.

The point still stands there is a process to developing/evaluating your prospects. I believe as others have said Bertuzzi could start now getting his 2 season tryout. Hopefully when the pipe-dream we're a competitive team finally dissolves he gets a proper look.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You mean like last season post-TDL? Oh wait that's right, the Wings decided they could only rotate one Griffin at a time... to teach the kids "pride" lol. It's funny reading all the novel ideas put forward that were supposed to happen last season and still won't. Green, Booth, Witkowski- wow I guess the rebuild is on!

Comparing the sad state of the Wings to a team that dumped 1/2 their roster within one year and moved forward publicly with a legitimate sports rebuild is a low blow to a wounded fanbase. We have nothing in common with Toronto.

The only way we get off this hamster wheel is Holland gone, and not just moved upstairs.

We still saw more kids post-TDL, and as always it’s a process. Thinking our long track record of one non-playoff year is evidence things will play out exactly like that every year we miss seems foolish.

As for picks, getting 10+ in a draft is good enough. Green/Booth/Witkowski are the obvious choices but some of XO/Jensen/Nyquist/Mrazek could go too. Get over the fact that under Holland, and likely under current ownership, the team won’t burn everything to the ground unless we’re 10 years deep into a rebuild with 0 or 1 playoff appearance (like Toronto had). This team doesn’t need scorched earth, it needs to be patient and keep drafting and developing d-men. Talking about a hamster wheel when we’ve missed the playoffs once and are now on track for a bottom 3 finish... Maybe you mean a hamster wheel barrelling down a hill?

 

[Dotter]

I think Red Wings currently have 9 picks for 2018 so far. We took 11 picks in 2017.

The most TML had was 11 when they drafted Mathews, since Shanahan took over.

 

[Bench]

I think Red Wings currently have 9 picks for 2018 so far. We took 11 picks in 2017.

The most TML had was 11 when they drafted Mathews, since Shanahan took over.

I'd prefer they try to turn that pick volume into less picks but at higher positions. Trade up and snag the guys your scouts really love in the early rounds rather than throwing a dart at a bunch of project players.

 

[Winger98]

I'd prefer they try to turn that pick volume into less picks but at higher positions. Trade up and snag the guys your scouts really love in the early rounds rather than throwing a dart at a bunch of project players.

especially when the key to that big draft wasn't the eleven picks Toronto had, but the one they had at the top. Luckily, it looks like we suck enough to have quantity and quality. Lucky us, huh?

Right. The difference is, for me, I knew that Miller was nothing special.
Landon Ferraro got 17 games over 3 seasons -- about 180 minutes -- to show anything.

You put a Ferraro in there for 40 games in a season. What does it hurt to see what you got?

I don't think it hurts because Miller was nothing special. My bigger issue with it is that everyone could tell Miller was nothing special, and the Wings didn't think Ferraro was anything special...so get rid of both of them. Either put a kid in that spot you think is better, or go after a better player elsewhere. Don't just keep crap around because it's the easiest path.

 

[Frk It]

We still saw more kids post-TDL, and as always it’s a process. Thinking our long track record of one non-playoff year is evidence things will play out exactly like that every year we miss seems foolish.

As for picks, getting 10+ in a draft is good enough. Green/Booth/Witkowski are the obvious choices but some of XO/Jensen/Nyquist/Mrazek could go too. Get over the fact that under Holland, and likely under current ownership, the team won’t burn everything to the ground unless we’re 10 years deep into a rebuild with 0 or 1 playoff appearance (like Toronto had). This team doesn’t need scorched earth, it needs to be patient and keep drafting and developing d-men. Talking about a hamster wheel when we’ve missed the playoffs once and are now on track for a bottom 3 finish... Maybe you mean a hamster wheel barrelling down a hill?

What's even the difference between trading Green and finishing bottom 3, and burning it down?

I'm not sure there's much else we could get rid of if we wanted to, because we have so many players that either have negative trade equity or a NTC.

 

[jkutswings]

The difference is you take too long to evaluate players. Ken Holland and management discovered this rather quickly with Ferraro and sent him packing. Ferraro, no matter how you slice it, is a bust. It's not Red Wings fault you can't evaluate talent quickly. That's why they get paid the big bucks and you and I are posting on a random hockey forum.

Nyquist says hi.

 

[jkutswings]

I think Red Wings currently have 9 picks for 2018 so far. We took 11 picks in 2017.

The most TML had was 11 when they drafted Mathews, since Shanahan took over.

Draft picks are like potential energy. The more you have, the higher up the hill the boulder starts. But if you never start rolling, all the potential in the world is of no use.

Bring on the extra picks, whether they get packaged or used as-is. But at the moment, I don't have much faith in the regime using them.

 

[jkutswings]

I'd prefer they try to turn that pick volume into less picks but at higher positions. Trade up and snag the guys your scouts really love in the early rounds rather than throwing a dart at a bunch of project players.

Sounds good to me. Hopefully with those decisions being made by a staff that's building for a high-end future instead of the playoff bubble.

 

[BinCookin]

this discussion of Bertuzzi and other prospects is... a little pointless.

I am sorry you all are so upset with how the team has been run for 5-6-7 years now.

But we have just entered our rebuilding phase. (the kind of rebuild you guys want).

It will take some time to trade our horrible contracts, if at all possible.

quite frankly im tired of listening to complaints about how this team was run 5 years ago... some of you should just write an alternative reality post, and enjoy the fiction.
this team is in the spot it is in. I much much prefer we talk about the present.

You guys are talking about Miller.... (hes gone, retired, GONE).

Bertuzzi is not competing with Miller, hed be competing with Witkowski (hired so Mantha/Larkin don't have to fight people)
Booth (#1 target)
Glendening.

At least make the complaints relevant

 

[jkutswings]

this discussion of Bertuzzi and other prospects is... a little pointless.

I am sorry you all are so upset with how the team has been run for 5-6-7 years now.

But we have just entered our rebuilding phase. (the kind of rebuild you guys want).

It will take some time to trade our horrible contracts, if at all possible.

quite frankly im tired of listening to complaints about how this team was run 5 years ago... some of you should just write an alternative reality post, and enjoy the fiction.
this team is in the spot it is in. I much much prefer we talk about the present.

You guys are talking about Miller.... (hes gone, retired, GONE).

Bertuzzi is not competing with Miller, hed be competing with Witkowski (hired so Mantha/Larkin don't have to fight people)
Booth (#1 target)
Glendening.

At least make the complaints relevant

I'm fine with talking about now. I just want the guy who created this mess to be gone, so all these dead horses being discussed don't continue to recur and plague the future as well.

Sell at least Green at the deadline -ideally Nyquist too - and get a new GM and coach here as soon as the season ends, so they have as much time as possible to prepare for the draft and off-season.

 

[obey86]

This is what really signals to me that they haven't really begun a rebuild. The point of a rebuild is to try to identify pieces that will be part of your next core group. We shouldn't be playing known mediocre commodities like Ouellet, Jensen, DDK, Kronwall, etc. (also applies to forwards/Bertuzzi) who offer the organization absolutely nothing in the short or long term . We should be giving minutes to young players to see how they perform... that's the only way we're gonna know what we've got in em. Who cares if the young guys aren't immediately better than the mediocre vets... sucking more will help us anyway, and we get a better idea of what which young guys to keep around. Plus it makes for more exciting hockey to be able to watch them, instead of the boring completely talentless vets that make up most of our oldest roster in the league.

kronwall and dekeyser have big contracts, it's just a reality of sports they are going to play if healthy (unfortunately). can't dump either one of them unfortunately.

jensen and oullett really got their first chances in the NHL last season, not a surprise they got another year to see what they have. obviously, they both suck, although I think Jensen would be alright as a bottom pairing guy on a non terrible team.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

This is what really signals to me that they haven't really begun a rebuild. The point of a rebuild is to try to identify pieces that will be part of your next core group. We shouldn't be playing known mediocre commodities like Ouellet, Jensen, DDK, Kronwall, etc. (also applies to forwards/Bertuzzi) who offer the organization absolutely nothing in the short or long term . We should be giving minutes to young players to see how they perform... that's the only way we're gonna know what we've got in em. Who cares if the young guys aren't immediately better than the mediocre vets... sucking more will help us anyway, and we get a better idea of what which young guys to keep around. Plus it makes for more exciting hockey to be able to watch them, instead of the boring completely talentless vets that make up most of our oldest roster in the league.

Terrible Post. Think about it?
Let Cholowski and Hronek play top mins and get slaughtered? That makes sense.

 

[BinCookin]

I'm fine with talking about now. I just want the guy who created this mess to be gone, so all these dead horses being discussed don't continue to recur and plague the future as well.

Sell at least Green at the deadline -ideally Nyquist too - and get a new GM and coach here as soon as the season ends, so they have as much time as possible to prepare for the draft and off-season.

Good news is most of that is happening.


I theorize
Green will be traded
Mrazek will be gone
(Nyquist no one wants last time i checked)
GM likely to retire this year, he wont be firing the coach, the new GM will make that choice

 

[obey86]

Drew Miller was not a better hockey player at that point.

There is a reason his last NHL contract was with the Detroit Red Wings. He was a pretty meh player after the lockout...

These guys aren't pushing out the quality of players that are needed to be going the overripe angle on. It is because you aren't pushing out Maltby, Draper and Homer that this has shifted massively. We need to play guys like Bertuzzi at this point. We need to get more aggressive in mining and developing our young talent in the NHL.

I think Larkin and Mantha are big in terms of having a young core that other guys want to buy into. We just need to make the full shift to a declared rebuild. I know he is doing a lot of rebuild things actually that most are trying to ignore, but the time has come for Holland to announce we are thinking long-term and we are completely open for business sans Zetterberg unless he asks out himself. We need to give some of our AHL kids serious looks over the back-half the season.

There is a reality that is at play here that is getting more and more impossible to ignore. This is a bad hockey team that needs to play for three to four years from now and not what is currently happening.

There are individual cases where I would agree with holding a certain player down in terms of his game needing more maturation. But that isn't what is happening here.

I agree that Drew Miller sucks, but if we're comparing him to Landon Ferraro, Ferraro equally sucks.

Ferraro is out of the NHL too in case you didn't notice.

 

[TheMule93]

Terrible Post. Think about it?
Let Cholowski and Hronek play top mins and get slaughtered? That makes sense.

I think you meant to reply to someone else, I never said such a thing

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

Bertuzzi is another Ott type player. That's what we got. We don't need any NHL tryout period to figure that out.

 

[Dotter]

Draft picks are like potential energy. The more you have, the higher up the hill the boulder starts. But if you never start rolling, all the potential in the world is of no use.

Bring on the extra picks, whether they get packaged or used as-is. But at the moment, I don't have much faith in the regime using them.

The ragime? As in Hakan Anersson & other amateur scouts? You don't like our scouts?

The best thing that happened to this club the past 5 years is Jim Nill left. I think Tyler Wright is doing a fantastic job.

 

[Red Stanley]

You mean like last season post-TDL? Oh wait that's right, the Wings decided they could only rotate one Griffin at a time... to teach the kids "pride" lol. It's funny reading all the novel ideas put forward that were supposed to happen last season and still won't. Green, Booth, Witkowski- wow I guess the rebuild is on!

Comparing the sad state of the Wings to a team that dumped 1/2 their roster within one year and moved forward publicly with a legitimate sports rebuild is a low blow to a wounded fanbase. We have nothing in common with Toronto.

The only way we get off this hamster wheel is Holland gone, and not just moved upstairs.

No, we don't. Detroit isn't Toronto or Montreal, for that matter. Totally different markets that are largely unaffected by the quality of the product on the ice. Also, Toronto has done diddly squat in 50 years. MTL hasn't done shit since the start of our streak.

 

[Dotter]

No, we don't. Detroit isn't Toronto or Montreal, for that matter. Totally different markets that are largely unaffected by the quality of the product on the ice. Also, Toronto has done diddly squat in 50 years. MTL hasn't done **** since the start of our streak.

Great point. And I might be the minority here, but I would not throw away what DRWs have accomplished the past 25 years to be what the new TMLs are today. I suspect many here would, though. Which is sad to me.

 

[jkutswings]

The ragime? As in Hakan Anersson & other amateur scouts? You don't like our scouts?

The best thing that happened to this club the past 5 years is Jim Nill left. I think Tyler Wright is doing a fantastic job.

Let me be clear. I want Ken Holland and all his assistants and all the player personnel staff and all the cap gurus on a plane out of town. Yesterday. And I'd take a very long look at doing the same thing to some or even all of the scouting staff.

Larkin is panning out to be a very good player, and an outstanding value for where he was taken. Mantha is on track to be a very good value for his draft slot.

And literally everything else from the last decade is some ratio of 'maybe' and 'lousy'.

I want a clean break and a fresh start.

 

[jkutswings]

Great point. And I might be the minority here, but I would not throw away what DRWs have accomplished the past 25 years to be what the new TMLs are today. I suspect many here would, though. Which is sad to me.

Except that there's zero reason why it has to be either/or. Smart decisions could have this franchise building the next core, without somehow magically erasing a single championship.

Unless you're specifically referring to the last 2-3 years of mediocrity. In that case, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Dotter]

Let me be clear. I want Ken Holland and all his assistants and all the player personnel staff and all the cap gurus on a plane out of town. Yesterday. And I'd take a very long look at doing the same thing to some or even all of the scouting staff.

Larkin is panning out to be a very good player, and an outstanding value for where he was taken. Mantha is on track to be a very good value for his draft slot.

And literally everything else from the last decade is some ratio of 'maybe' and 'lousy'.

I want a clean break and a fresh start.

Very few teams draft players who play over 100 NHL games late(r) rounds in the draft. You want to fire those scouts, too? I guarantee you EDM hire them before they clean box the things in their office.