Standard Red Wing Operations Procedures

TJ71

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Dec 2, 2017
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The Wings have had this entirely ridiculous process they seem to stick to for quite some time now. Regardless as to whether its impact makes this team any better. Case in point this time, is Holland & or, Blashill, decides to send down Tyler Bertuzzi so we can keep David Booth???? Are you kidding me?

While Bertuzzi isn't going to be a star by any means, he does have a much better shot at being an important part of this team for the next 8 years. It's moves like this that fondue to set us back. I could care less if Booth is considered less likely to make a bad play in his own zone. Bert is better in every other aspect. If the concern is that keeping Bert over Booth will result with more "possible" mistakes at the NHL Level (which I could counter with, Bert scoring more goals, creating more assists, and being a more aggressive forechecker) we have 16-18 guys every game that make mistakes, so why not keep the guy you believe is going to be a part of your future?? Rather than a travelling Hockey Player near the end of his road???

Just makes no sense at all. None. Unless we have a team that has a shot at going to the Stanley cup finals, we shouldn't be so caught up in getting into the 1st round only to be knocked out In the 1st round. Keep Bertuzzii bring up Hickets, bring up of Evgeny as soon as hes physically ready. Bring up any possible potential future defenseman. Lets see what we've got.
 

lomekian

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Oct 28, 2013
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I suspect that will happen soon enough when the playoffs wave bye bye and the selling starts. Until then, Blash is like a drowning man gasping for every breath, no matter how small. And, frankly, if Blash is only going to give a guy 5-6 mins a night starting in the defensive zone, I'd rather he did it to Booth, who is not going to improve and is just happy to be here.

You and i may both think that Blash should use the 4th line more and give Bert a bigger chance to make a impact, but if he's not going to, then we might as well have Bertuzzi getting 17-20 mins in GR and leading their offense than trying to make an impact in 30 second shifts in dead games.

As for Hicketts and Svech, I'd rather let them get their confidence back in GR for the mo as both have been off their game for a while now. That said, when we trade Green I sure as hell want a look at Hronek.
 

The Flying Octopus

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Sep 18, 2017
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The Wings have had this entirely ridiculous process they seem to stick to for quite some time now. Regardless as to whether its impact makes this team any better. Case in point this time, is Holland & or, Blashill, decides to send down Tyler Bertuzzi so we can keep David Booth???? Are you kidding me?

While Bertuzzi isn't going to be a star by any means, he does have a much better shot at being an important part of this team for the next 8 years. It's moves like this that fondue to set us back. I could care less if Booth is considered less likely to make a bad play in his own zone. Bert is better in every other aspect. If the concern is that keeping Bert over Booth will result with more "possible" mistakes at the NHL Level (which I could counter with, Bert scoring more goals, creating more assists, and being a more aggressive forechecker) we have 16-18 guys every game that make mistakes, so why not keep the guy you believe is going to be a part of your future?? Rather than a travelling Hockey Player near the end of his road???

Just makes no sense at all. None. Unless we have a team that has a shot at going to the Stanley cup finals, we shouldn't be so caught up in getting into the 1st round only to be knocked out In the 1st round. Keep Bertuzzii bring up Hickets, bring up of Evgeny as soon as hes physically ready. Bring up any possible potential future defenseman. Lets see what we've got.

I have been preaching this to myself, friends, and sometimes on here that this is whats needed. However, this all goes back to the cap and we simply can't bring up Hickets, or others, just to see "what we've got," even though its the best scenario at this point. It's very frustrating to say the least, but until there is significant injuries, this is what we have to deal with. #tankon
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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I agree. Bertuzzi would probably be much better than Booth at keeping the Cleary Cabana occupied two out of every three games.
 

Ezekial

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I have been preaching this to myself, friends, and sometimes on here that this is whats needed. However, this all goes back to the cap and we simply can't bring up Hickets, or others, just to see "what we've got," even though its the best scenario at this point. It's very frustrating to say the least, but until there is significant injuries, this is what we have to deal with. #tankon
Joe Hicketts has a lower cap hit than Tyler Bertuzzi. The problem with Hicketts is they have 7-8 dmen they would play over him and don't think it's conducive for his development to be scratched/play small minutes.
 

TheMule93

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This is what really signals to me that they haven't really begun a rebuild. The point of a rebuild is to try to identify pieces that will be part of your next core group. We shouldn't be playing known mediocre commodities like Ouellet, Jensen, DDK, Kronwall, etc. (also applies to forwards/Bertuzzi) who offer the organization absolutely nothing in the short or long term . We should be giving minutes to young players to see how they perform... that's the only way we're gonna know what we've got in em. Who cares if the young guys aren't immediately better than the mediocre vets... sucking more will help us anyway, and we get a better idea of what which young guys to keep around. Plus it makes for more exciting hockey to be able to watch them, instead of the boring completely talentless vets that make up most of our oldest roster in the league.
 

izlez

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Standard operating procedure:

Complain that we aren't "seeing what we got" (despite a number of young players playing and people in the organization having eyes) and saying "it can't be any worse than what we have"

When we do see them, complain that they ARE worse, and we aren't seeing the even younger kids to "see what we got"

Repeat
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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This is what really signals to me that they haven't really begun a rebuild. The point of a rebuild is to try to identify pieces that will be part of your next core group. We shouldn't be playing known mediocre commodities like Ouellet, Jensen, DDK, Kronwall, etc. (also applies to forwards/Bertuzzi) who offer the organization absolutely nothing in the short or long term . We should be giving minutes to young players to see how they perform... that's the only way we're gonna know what we've got in em. Who cares if the young guys aren't immediately better than the mediocre vets... sucking more will help us anyway, and we get a better idea of what which young guys to keep around. Plus it makes for more exciting hockey to be able to watch them, instead of the boring completely talentless vets that make up most of our oldest roster in the league.

Is it really more exciting to see Xaiver Ouellet or Ryan Sproul (when he was here) cough up the puck than it is to watch Ericsson do it? Is it really more advantageous to have a defense full of all young pieces so when they **** up it can't really be pinned to one of them "because they're young and learning"? If a kid falls flat on his face, is it because he's worthless or is it because he got tossed into an unfair position?

There is nothing more harmful to a young, mediocre player's development than to throw him into a situation bigger than what he can handle "just to see what you have".

That's one of my biggest problems with the tank train. All of it is predicated on "see what you have" with rookies, which is a really really inefficient way to know if they're any good. If they go out and suck, is it because they aren't good at hockey or because you're leaving them out on a dinghy?
 
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Winger98

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Is it really more exciting to see Xaiver Ouellet or Ryan Sproul (when he was here) cough up the puck than it is to watch Ericsson do it? Is it really more advantageous to have a defense full of all young pieces so when they **** up it can't really be pinned to one of them "because they're young and learning"? If a kid falls flat on his face, is it because he's worthless or is it because he got tossed into an unfair position?

There is nothing more harmful to a young, mediocre player's development than to throw him into a situation bigger than what he can handle "just to see what you have".

That's one of my biggest problems with the tank train. All of it is predicated on "see what you have" with rookies, which is a really really inefficient way to know if they're any good. If they go out and suck, is it because they aren't good at hockey or because you're leaving them out on a dinghy?

Define young. Waiting until guys are 23, 24, 26, etc. is pointless. If they're good, they will adapt, and you will see their game grow. What's disconcerting about the Wings is that guys they could throw out there right now don't seem to have much upside to their games. Which is also, at least partially, probably why they sign guys like Daley. They don't see enough upside in guys like XO, Jensen, Russo, Hicketts, and McIlrath to care about shoving them further down the depth chart. Hopefully, they just don't see Hronek, Saarijarvi, and Cholo as being physically ready and not in that, "eh, don't matter" group.

The longer guys are in GR, though, the less should be expected of them.
 

Frk It

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Is it really more exciting to see Xaiver Ouellet or Ryan Sproul (when he was here) cough up the puck than it is to watch Ericsson do it? Is it really more advantageous to have a defense full of all young pieces so when they **** up it can't really be pinned to one of them "because they're young and learning"? If a kid falls flat on his face, is it because he's worthless or is it because he got tossed into an unfair position?

There is nothing more harmful to a young, mediocre player's development than to throw him into a situation bigger than what he can handle "just to see what you have".

That's one of my biggest problems with the tank train. All of it is predicated on "see what you have" with rookies, which is a really really inefficient way to know if they're any good. If they go out and suck, is it because they aren't good at hockey or because you're leaving them out on a dinghy?

I think it really depends on the player. I think in some cases getting knocked on your ass and seeing the areas you need to work on early on could be good for some players.

I think a lot of guys who end up mediocre would have ended up mediocre whether they were "over-ripened" or not. I also think the inverse of that is true, for the most part. But that's me.

Maybe it's different for 1st rounders vs later round guys.... But I'm sure Larkin isn't complaining he was thrown into the NHL at 19. Good players think they can hang. And if they can't hang, they'll put in the work needed so they can. Cholowski didn't have the freshman season he wanted, and he responded by gaining 20-25 lbs and getting a Team Canada invite. Larkin didn't have the sophomore NHL season he wanted, but he looks significantly better this year so far. Ideally your young players don't let that ruin them, they push back and do something about it.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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I can understand that. And yeah, most of the time, if you're talented, you'll succeed, if you're mediocre at best, you'll be mediocre at best.

However, I do not see an advantage in bringing up Joe Hicketts to play on a third pairing with Xaiver Ouellet and invariably fall on his face. It doesn't give you any reference. Did he suck because you put him in a bad spot or did he just suck? And while I understand the point about being knocked on your ass... I also think it can do a lot of damage to a guy. Look at Jurco. He had an ill fitting coach for his playstyle, came up to Detroit, lost all his offensive confidence and was then just a fourth line grinder not worth a damn. And first round picks are wildly different than mid and late round picks on this score.
 

Redder Winger

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Joe Hicketts is going 1-4-5 and not playing well defensively in GR.
What makes anyone think this pint sized defenseman is going to turn it on in the NHL?

Tyler Bertuzzi doesn't need to be an all-star when he plays. But he needs to skate, hit and be an agitator.
He's not doing that.
And I don't understand why.
Maybe Blashill is telling him to chill.
Maybe his agitation rep is undeserved.

But I'm not sure he's got the chops for anything more than that in the NHL.
 
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waltdetroit

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The AHL is a development league to see what you have. If they do well consistently, then bring them up
 

Dotter

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This thread reminds me of back when Ken Holland waived Landon Ferraro and the entire board had a melt down as if he just let the next Sergei Fedorov get away. Or when they waived Nestrasil.

And if you ask half the members on this forum, they'll say it's Ken Holland's fault they didn't develop into all-stars.

Tyler Bertuzzi is more of the same.
 

Redder Winger

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This thread reminds me of back when Ken Holland waived Landon Ferraro and the entire board had a melt down as if he just let the next Sergei Fedorov get away. Or when they waived Nestrasil.

And if you ask half the members on this forum, they'll say it's Ken Holland's fault they didn't develop into all-stars.

Tyler Bertuzzi is more of the same.

Nobody thought they were losing the next Fedorov.

But why not give those Miller minutes to Ferraro?
What's so f***ing special about Drew Miller? Show me all the post-season success we owe to playing a veteran fourth liner like Miller.
 

Dotter

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Because he was the better hockey player that actually helped the team?

Why punish the entire hockey club to play garbage failed picks for the sake of "just because"? When a better player was available...

If these busts were so great, they'd be playing today. Cut your losses and move on. Don't kill the team because of pride over the good of the team
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Because he was the better hockey player that actually helped the team?

Why punish the entire hockey club to play garbage failed picks for the sake of "just because"? When a better player was available...

If these busts were so great, they'd be playing today. Cut your losses and move on. Don't kill the team because of pride over the good of the team

Drew Miller was not a better hockey player at that point.

There is a reason his last NHL contract was with the Detroit Red Wings. He was a pretty meh player after the lockout...

These guys aren't pushing out the quality of players that are needed to be going the overripe angle on. It is because you aren't pushing out Maltby, Draper and Homer that this has shifted massively. We need to play guys like Bertuzzi at this point. We need to get more aggressive in mining and developing our young talent in the NHL.

I think Larkin and Mantha are big in terms of having a young core that other guys want to buy into. We just need to make the full shift to a declared rebuild. I know he is doing a lot of rebuild things actually that most are trying to ignore, but the time has come for Holland to announce we are thinking long-term and we are completely open for business sans Zetterberg unless he asks out himself. We need to give some of our AHL kids serious looks over the back-half the season.

There is a reality that is at play here that is getting more and more impossible to ignore. This is a bad hockey team that needs to play for three to four years from now and not what is currently happening.

There are individual cases where I would agree with holding a certain player down in terms of his game needing more maturation. But that isn't what is happening here.
 

Winger98

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Nobody thought they were losing the next Fedorov.

But why not give those Miller minutes to Ferraro?
What's so ****ing special about Drew Miller? Show me all the post-season success we owe to playing a veteran fourth liner like Miller.

Nothing, but there wasn't anything special about Ferraro, either. If the Wings didn't see much of a future with Ferraro they should have cut bait with both of them and moved on entirely.
 
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Dotter

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Who has more Trade Deadline trade value, Booth or the AHL guy that can't hack it in the NHL?

Play the bust for the sake of playing a kid, or try to showcase the guy that some playoff team might want some depth for a playoff run? I vote the free draft 7th-19th round draft pick.
 

Voodoo Glow Skulls

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Who has more Trade Deadline trade value, Booth or the AHL guy that can't hack it in the NHL?

Play the bust for the sake of playing a kid, or try to showcase the guy that some playoff team might want some depth for a playoff run? I vote the free draft 7th-19th round draft pick.

I'm guessing you don't like Bertuzzi...

In any event, the problem with Detroits development process is that they keep lower level players without making their prospects take the role.

Player gets injured, out for a month for example. Detroit has the depth to cover that, so the prospect either sits or plays a couple games, then gets sent back.

No, give the prospect an actual chance to steal a spot.

You can't develop a players NHL game in the AHL. You develop their NHL game in the NHL.
 
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Dotter

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Miller was one, if not the best, PKer on the team. Landan Farraro... not so much. He's a bust.

I don't not like Bertuzzi. I defended the pick when Holland took him off the board. But he quickly became lackluster for me. I could foresee he was a bust (or redundant 4th liner) a long time ago. I got ripped on the boards for it. Am still am, I guess?

Threads like these pop all the time when ppl think KH gives up on a prospect too early. And 99.9999% he's right. Proof is in the pudding.
 

Winger98

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Detroit's cumulative PK rank over the last 5 years of Miller's career was 14th. Over those five years, Miller had the second most SHTOI for forwards on the team, with nearly 300 more minutes than the third highest forward (Helm). He was a key element of a thoroughly average penalty kill unit.

Miller was a serviceable depth player, but entirely replaceable. Plug Ferraro into that spot, plug Ott into that spot, plug Witkowski into that spot. That 13 minutes of IT will get redistributed, rolls shifted a bit, and it would be as if he never existed.
 

Redder Winger

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Nothing, but there wasn't anything special about Ferraro, either. If the Wings didn't see much of a future with Ferraro they should have cut bait with both of them and moved on entirely.

Right. The difference is, for me, I knew that Miller was nothing special.
Landon Ferraro got 17 games over 3 seasons -- about 180 minutes -- to show anything.

You put a Ferraro in there for 40 games in a season. What does it hurt to see what you got?
 

SoupGuru

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Ah yes, the old "any prospect we have in the minors is automatically better than any roster player" thread.
 

Pavels Dog

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One thread with people labeling Bert a bust, one where he is labeled an important part of the future and sending him down is some unforgivable mistake. Maybe, just maybe, the truth is somewhere in the middle and he’s a solid prospect who isn’t yet ready to take anyone’s job in the NHL?

Nothing wrong with letting him play big minutes in GR for a while longer. Sell Green+Booth+Witkowski and maybe more then run some kids full time post-TDL. Standard (good)rebuilding procedure, like Toronto did as an example.
 

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