Stan Fischler's latest take on the lockout

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by RangerBoy, Jan 7, 2005.

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  1. RangerBoy

    RangerBoy TRUST THE PROCESS

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    What are the agents saying right now?They have a gag order on them but they aren't very happy.Stan Fischler said last night on MSG in NY that he has talked to some big agents who have contacted the NHL trying to get the talks re-started.They have stopped listening to what Goodenow and Saskin are spewing.They are starting to go around the NHLPA to get this thing settled

    Fischler said the NHL canceled the BOG set for next Friday because the NHLPA was telling the players the league was going to submit a new proposal next Friday.The NHLPA is trying to buy some more time before they have a full fledged mutiny on their hands.There is no new proposal coming from the NHL and the ball is still in the NHLPA's court
     
  2. Pepper

    Pepper Registered User

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    The ball is firmly in PA's court, NHL made the last offer so it's PA's turn.
     
  3. arnie

    arnie Registered User

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    Given Fiscler's record with the the truth, I now firmly believe that the agents must be supporting Goodenow 100%.
     
  4. How so?
    The owners last offer wasn't an offer.
    There was nothing meaningful in it.

    They had the audacity to take the players offer, spin the numbers around in a smarmy attempt to divide the union, and then add a salary cap.
    You call that an offer?

    Not that the PA's offer was an offer that was going to get this done. But it was a significant move, at least in terms of getting some movement.

    Or do you have another reason why this is in the PA's court?
     
  5. Toonces

    Toonces The beer kitty

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    To the Union, any offer that links salaries to revenue will be rejected.

    To the Owners, any offer that doesn't link salaries to revenue will be rejected.

    Neither side seems to want to concede, so the ball is in nobodys court. A bunch of spoiled babies, both sides.

    Cancel the season already...
     
  6. tantalum

    tantalum Registered User

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    Not unlike the move of the NHLPA that put on a window dressing of 24% rollback to try an entice and divide the owners without addressing anything else in a significant manner? A proposal the NHL took back and crunched the numbers on. A kindness the union btw did not return on the NHL proposal.

    The NHLPA proposal was nothing. It was the starting position offer from the players. An offer they would be over the moon if it was accepted. There were no real concessions that "hurt" the players in it. The framework was not what the owners want to see and to be frank when a business is hurting as the NHL is hurting it is ultimately the owners side who gets to choose the framework of the negotiation. There was movement on the part of the owners from the original outlines during the summer. They included the subject of a minimum cap that was quite high and actually over the maximum cap in the orignial outlines...it opens up a cap range for discussion. A maximum cap nearly 25% higher than mentioned in the summer. And they put down their starting position. Again it comes down to one thing and one thing only....tying salary thresholds to revenues or not doing so. When one side jumps that hurdle the rest falls into place. It took three months of a work stoppage for both sides to put down the opening positions. Neither side has budged all that much from their rhetoric of 6 months ago in those positions as both sides are still sticking to the framework they want to see. The thing is I firmly believe the NHLPA thought the league was bluffing and I don't think they are. The owners are committed and even if a few are getting antsy there is no way 24 of them are (I'd say there aren't even 5).

    The end is that the side that is most right gets to decide that framework and the unons inability to answer and clarify some basic questions leads me to believe they aren't the ones taking this seriously and they are playing the weak hand. (1) using the Levitt numbers in their proposal they hoped would get accepted and thereby having them in writing as legit yet not accepting them, (2) the inability to even discredit the numbers or the Levitt report, (3) no matter what source they all agree the league is bleeding and that the bleeding must be stopped yet the proposal does not seriously address the issues everyone elese can see as needing addressed, (4) the lack of any sort of explanation as to why tying salaries to revenues is a bad thing (and trust has nothing to do with it given an independent auditor would be making the evaluation taking 'trust' COMPLETELY out of the equation), (5) why 50+% or more of revenues is such a bad thing, (6) if the owners are hiding all this money somehow why they wouldn't negotiate a $45 mil cap expressed as x% (given the league has offered about $38 mil as a formal opening....with give and take it would get to $45 mil or perhaps higher if a joint tax/cap system is used). After all the only place the cap is going is up when the auditor looks at things and finds all this hidden money. Or is it simply because if there is any hidden money it isn't going to amount to anything but a nominal difference? (7) why losing $1.2 billion in salary is better than guaranteeing $1 billion or so in salary as could have been negotiated in a hard cap; and (8) why negotiating a trigger such that as revenues increase so do salaries is such a bad thing.

    The NHL has answered the questions as to why they think this is the best way to go about things and why they don't feel the other systems will work. Whether you agree or not they have spelled out there position and provided reasons why. I've yet to see any sort of answers from the NHLPA on these things other than "we won't accept it". "The NFLPA hates their cap". "caps lead to mediocrity".
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2005
  7. jratelle19

    jratelle19 Registered User

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    I would listen to what a monkey from the Bronx Zoo has to say about the lockout or hockey in general than to what Stan "I have my nose so far up Gary Bettman's a**, I'm kissing his pancreas" Fischler.
     
  8. BLONG7

    BLONG7 Registered User

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    Fischler takes one side and Larry Brooks takes the other...
     
  9. Oh, so you ARE a regular Brooks reader then. :joker:
     
  10. eye

    eye Registered User

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    You really do have the blinders on don't you? Bettman took 3 days to review the PA's proposal and made a counter proposal that he at least took the time to explain how and why the owners felt their framework is needed on a going forward basis for a healthy and competitive NHL. The PA could have at least taken a couple of days to review it instead of reacting on emtion and dismissing it 2 hours later. By doing so they prevented any form of progress in talks. Goodenow has been awful this time around at actually negotiating or keeping talks moving forward. He could have countered in a number of ways if he really wanted to devide the owners. Stiff dollar for dollar luxury tax at 35 million probably would have done it but he is only concerned about maintaining what he has managed to gain in the past instead of considering what's good for hockey or giving any consideration to the big picture. Goodenow knows better than anyone that owners in todays sports climate need a process that has built in checks and balances that indeed protects them form one another or from destroying the sporting franchises that they own.

    Newsguyone, I suspect you have never owned or managed a business and it wouldn't suprise me if you are still a student with little business experience but don't you think it makes sense that owners have the right to manage their business the way they see fit. Obviously they have to be fair to the employees and operate within labour guidelines but I think they are being more than reasonable in saying they want a certain framework that they are quite willing to negotiate within.
     
  11. ScottyBowman

    ScottyBowman Registered User

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    The last proposal by the owners was a joke. The owners are taking positive points in the proposal (rollbacks) and then adding them onto their harsh proposal. The owners only asked for a 10% rollback in the beginning and now they are gunning for 20%. The owners are taking taking taking and not giving anything.
     
  12. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    The ball is in both sides court to get a deal done. One of the reasons this lockout has gone on this long is become the owners are sitting on their asses waiting for the PA's offers. The owners are the ones unhappy and they're the ones lockout out the players, they should be the ones making offers and starting talks.
     
  13. eye

    eye Registered User

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    OK, your in a store and you offer X # of $, the owner of the store says NO, I need X # of $ to make the deal. The agreeable price is somewhere in the middle. Who's turn is it? It doesn't matter if you liked or disliked the owners counter - If you want the product you will find a creative way of getting to the agreeable price. If you say nothing there will be no sale and you might as well walk out and go to another store or in this case players might as well all try to go over to Europe. I hear many NHL players have been turned down and are now trying to get into the lowest leagues in Europe. Some NHL players have even been cut by Europeon teams. It kind of looked good on the big mouthed McCabe who like fellow player rep Daniel Alfredson was off to Europe when they should have been here working with Goodenow on new proposals.
     
  14. RangerBoy

    RangerBoy TRUST THE PROCESS

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    What does it say for the players union that their two biggest backers in the media are Larry Brooks and Al Strachan :help:

    Can't wait to read the latest crap from Brooks tomorrow.Brooks has blamed everything wrong in the world on Bettman except the tsunami.He will probably do that tomorrow
     
  15. RangerBoy

    RangerBoy TRUST THE PROCESS

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    I cannot understand the unwillingness to negotiate a salary cap, which wealthy NBAers and NFLers have had to do, rather than accept unemployment

    The NHLPA will ultimately make this choice: Come back with a salary cap, or don't come back at all

    What are the players going to do with the rest of their careers?Go get real jobs?
     
  16. ScottyBowman

    ScottyBowman Registered User

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    Using the NBA is a poor example. They have 12 men on the roster and they have a soft cap and the majority of teams are over the cap. Splitting $50 mil + over 12 players is nothing to complain about.
     
  17. txpd

    txpd Registered User

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    smarmy...i like that..haha. how could you be surprised by the owners counter offer?
    The owners are committed to tying payroll to revenue. the players are committed to not doing that above all else. so the nhlpa puts forward what would be a reasonable offer on many levels, but of course avoids the salary cap. the owners take the luxury tax out and put the salary cap in and ask the players how they feel about that?

    the krux of the players offer is to entice the league off its main demand again. the owners are serious about the cap this time around and they are not going to make it the first thing they drop in order to negotiate. you say it was a "significant move, at least in terms of getting some movement." what movement did you expect??? the only movement that could have happened was either the owners make counter proposal like they did or cave in on their main demand of a salary cap.

    audacity??? LOL...the owners did nothing more than what the players did....would you say that the players had the audacity to put forward a proposal that because there was no salary cap the players knew the owners would reject? Its the same thing.
     
  18. eye

    eye Registered User

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    The NBA also has major TV contracts and revenue. How hard is that to grasp?
     
  19. nyr7andcounting

    nyr7andcounting Registered User

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    The owners didn't really counter the PA's offer either. Really, they took it and put in their cost certainty system and then said okay heres our counter offer. In reality their counter offer had no similarity to the PA's offer, it was a completely different system they were talking about.

    It is cost certainty via a cap vs. cost certainty via no cap. Until one side agrees with the other on the system that's going to form the CBA, there is no need to counter offers because any offer will simply be dismissed by the other side.

    The ball is in times' court right now. There are no offers that either side could put out that would change anything or get talks going. This thing is going to court, going to the NLRB, and that's going to take time.
     
  20. CarlRacki

    CarlRacki Registered User

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    Right on. With the exception of a $1.3 million average salary, a chance to play in the NHL, fame, fortune, first-class travel arrangements, a doting medical staff and numerous other fringe benefits the players really get nothing from the owners. :shakehead
     
  21. eye

    eye Registered User

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    Don't forget a pension that sets the players up for life after only a few years in the league.
     
  22. CarlRacki

    CarlRacki Registered User

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    What difference does the size of the roster have to do with anything? It doesn't.
    The fact remains the NBA lives under a system in which salaries largely are tied to revenues. The fact is NBA revenues permit a $50 million cap. The fact is NHL revenues do not permit a $50 million cap.
    Your argument seems to be that if the NHL generated more revenue the players would gladly accept a cap. That's not true. The players aren't objecting to the level of the cap, they're objecting to the cap itself.
     
  23. CarlRacki

    CarlRacki Registered User

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    Since when did the PA offer cost certainty? And, more importantly, how can cost certainty be accomplished without a cap?
     
  24. ScottyBowman

    ScottyBowman Registered User

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    http://www.nhlfa.com/CBA/cba_agreement21.asp

    I had to look it up because I didn't believe you. $8000 CDN per year can not even feed my dog. I'd love to see someone try to support a family on that.
     
  25. Beukeboom Fan

    Beukeboom Fan Registered User

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    I think the issue is that in both leagues (NHL & NBA) the players have the ability (even under a salary cap) to make anywhere from 3 to 5 times as much as they do anywhere else. If I remember correctly, a guy like Brendan Morrison is making less than 10% of what his NHL contract was for this year. Even star players like Jagr are working for 25% of his current year contract. How much would a guy like Mathew Barnaby or Curtis Brown make in Europe? They are both forgoing $1.6M dollars this year with not accepting some sort of salary cap.

    The players want to continue the system where the big market teams (or irresponsible owners) are allowed spend as much as they want. I see their point, but I think that for the good of the entire league, some compromise with a hard cap and substantial revenue sharing could be worked out if they get off their high horse with the salary cap issue.
     
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