SPHL-level league in the Western US

Big Z Man 1990

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Jun 4, 2011
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As the SPHL is firmly planted in the East (with a majority of its teams in the Southeast with the possibility of adding more in the North and a name change to go along with it), there exists a gap in the Western US where there are a lot of markets hungry for minor league hockey.

Markets in the West no further east than the 4-state corridor running from Montana to NM not served by the NHL, AHL or ECHL (and to some extent, the WHL) could band together and form a new SPHL-level league, which could pick up a name which hasn't been seen in quite a while - the West Coast Hockey League. Or if you want to start fresh, go with Pacific Coast Hockey League.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
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Auburn, Maine
As the SPHL is firmly planted in the East (with a majority of its teams in the Southeast with the possibility of adding more in the North and a name change to go along with it), there exists a gap in the Western US where there are a lot of markets hungry for minor league hockey.

Markets in the West no further east than the 4-state corridor running from Montana to NM not served by the NHL, AHL or ECHL (and to some extent, the WHL) could band together and form a new SPHL-level league, which could pick up a name which hasn't been seen in quite a while - the West Coast Hockey League. Or if you want to start fresh, go with Pacific Coast Hockey League.

again, why?

it's bad enough there aren't enough MARKETS outstanding that aren't already served by the NHL/AHL/ECHL/WHL, Z
 

Captain Crash

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Apr 9, 2015
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Where would teams play in this proposed league? It's slim pickins in the footprint you're suggesting, which is itself likely to be prohibitively big for a league of that budget. You've got a couple of spots in Montana with iffy-at-best arenas, maybe two markets in Wyoming with Casper and Cheyenne but no venues, a return of the Denver Cutthroats and maybe a swing at Colorado Springs for Colorado, and uhh Albuquerque in NM? I don't think Santa Fe has an arena. Can't imagine how this can work.

If you want to propose a new Single A level league, I'd look maybe to start in Texas and build a footprint from there.
 

Big Z Man 1990

Registered User
Jun 4, 2011
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Don't say anything at all
Where would teams play in this proposed league? It's slim pickins in the footprint you're suggesting, which is itself likely to be prohibitively big for a league of that budget. You've got a couple of spots in Montana with iffy-at-best arenas, maybe two markets in Wyoming with Casper and Cheyenne but no venues, a return of the Denver Cutthroats and maybe a swing at Colorado Springs for Colorado, and uhh Albuquerque in NM? I don't think Santa Fe has an arena. Can't imagine how this can work.

If you want to propose a new Single A level league, I'd look maybe to start in Texas and build a footprint from there.

I'm talking about the entire west.
 

GindyDraws

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Mar 13, 2014
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As the SPHL is firmly planted in the East (with a majority of its teams in the Southeast with the possibility of adding more in the North and a name change to go along with it), there exists a gap in the Western US where there are a lot of markets hungry for minor league hockey.

Markets in the West no further east than the 4-state corridor running from Montana to NM not served by the NHL, AHL or ECHL (and to some extent, the WHL) could band together and form a new SPHL-level league, which could pick up a name which hasn't been seen in quite a while - the West Coast Hockey League. Or if you want to start fresh, go with Pacific Coast Hockey League.

No offense, but it seems like every single thread of yours starts with "As the SPHL is firmly planted...", yet you wander off from the discussion.
 

CrazyEddie20

Hey RuZZia - Cut Your Losses and Go Home.
Jun 26, 2007
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there exists a gap in the Western US where there are a lot of markets hungry for minor league hockey.

No, there aren't "a lot of markets hungry for minor league hockey" in that region. There aren't even suitable venues in a lot of the markets where, if properly capitalized, a minor league team might be successful. In other markets (Las Vegas, for example), a minor league team wouldn't be able to pull in nearly enough revenue to pay for an arena lease.
 

GindyDraws

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Mar 13, 2014
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No, there aren't "a lot of markets hungry for minor league hockey" in that region. There aren't even suitable venues in a lot of the markets where, if properly capitalized, a minor league team might be successful. In other markets (Las Vegas, for example), a minor league team wouldn't be able to pull in nearly enough revenue to pay for an arena lease.

Besides, the WPHL fiasco probably soured places on minor league hockey due to the reputation it had & places not wanting white elephant scenarios.
 

PCSPounder

Stadium Groupie
Apr 12, 2012
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The Outskirts of Nutria Nanny
No, there aren't "a lot of markets hungry for minor league hockey" in that region. There aren't even suitable venues in a lot of the markets where, if properly capitalized, a minor league team might be successful. In other markets (Las Vegas, for example), a minor league team wouldn't be able to pull in nearly enough revenue to pay for an arena lease.

I'm a guy who feels like I could sell that level of hockey in those western markets you stick your nose up at. On THAT note, I think you're wrong. I can think of a couple ski towns out west where people would flock if I built a few 5K-seat arenas. (Which, yes, you're right about the venues)

HOWEVER,

...take the SPHL footprint (including the Midwest) and multiply times 3. Understand that some of the markets are well off the beaten path of, um, airlines. Um, no, this is not going to be a bus league; I should introduce you to some of my favorite mountain passes sometime. Some of those markets are, surprisingly, not cheap in which to operate compared to the Midwest or South.

I could fill 4K arenas for this, but I'd need full 8K arenas or 5.5K with substantial business/suite presence. I could find 3 of the latter. I need 6-8.

3 of the 4 truly western ECHL markets have substantial air service. As for Rapid City, it appears I'm going to have my chance to check that out this fall, and part of the attraction of going there is finding out if a market of that size can really support what they have.
 

CrazyEddie20

Hey RuZZia - Cut Your Losses and Go Home.
Jun 26, 2007
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Back of a cop car
I'm a guy who feels like I could sell that level of hockey in those western markets you stick your nose up at. On THAT note, I think you're wrong. I can think of a couple ski towns out west where people would flock if I built a few 5K-seat arenas. (Which, yes, you're right about the venues)

HOWEVER,

...take the SPHL footprint (including the Midwest) and multiply times 3. Understand that some of the markets are well off the beaten path of, um, airlines. Um, no, this is not going to be a bus league; I should introduce you to some of my favorite mountain passes sometime. Some of those markets are, surprisingly, not cheap in which to operate compared to the Midwest or South.

I could fill 4K arenas for this, but I'd need full 8K arenas or 5.5K with substantial business/suite presence. I could find 3 of the latter. I need 6-8.

3 of the 4 truly western ECHL markets have substantial air service. As for Rapid City, it appears I'm going to have my chance to check that out this fall, and part of the attraction of going there is finding out if a market of that size can really support what they have.

Ski towns are ski towns. After a day on the slopes, people aren't going to hockey games. They're going to apres-ski parties, out to dinner, and crashing early.

If you take the SPHL footprint and multiply it by three, and say it's not going to be a bus league and the markets aren't well served by airlines, how do you propose that the teams travel? It'll be fantastically expensive, and considering that half of the SPHL drew less than 3,000/game, unaffordable.

Any market can support anything if the team's owner is willing to throw money down a black hole. That doesn't make it successful.
 

Nightsquad

Registered User
Jan 25, 2014
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The SPHL is going to "relatively" stay in its original footprint plan. The league may have a few teams on the fringe of its footprint but that is a given. A team in southern Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois is hardly a suggestion the league is expanding outside the footprint. Likewise an SPHL team in Maryland is hardly an indicator of a northeast shift. With that said that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see the "SPHL" model outside of that footprint. It would make for a nice replacement of the circus called the FHL, but only if the market has a decent arena.
 

Big Z Man 1990

Registered User
Jun 4, 2011
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353
Don't say anything at all
The SPHL is going to "relatively" stay in its original footprint plan. The league may have a few teams on the fringe of its footprint but that is a given. A team in southern Ohio, Indiana, or Illinois is hardly a suggestion the league is expanding outside the footprint. Likewise an SPHL team in Maryland is hardly an indicator of a northeast shift. With that said that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see the "SPHL" model outside of that footprint. It would make for a nice replacement of the circus called the FHL, but only if the market has a decent arena.

The SPHL has done well replacing the ECHL in most of its southern markets and its two current Midwest markets. It could do well replacing the ECHL in other northern markets (along with changing the "Southern" in the league name to "Atlantic").
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
35,232
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Auburn, Maine
The SPHL has done well replacing the ECHL in most of its southern markets and its two current Midwest markets. It could do well replacing the ECHL in other northern markets (along with changing the "Southern" in the league name to "Atlantic").

no, Z, WHY would you propose changing the AHL, even though there are Canadian teams in the higher two leagues, the ECHL has Brampton, correct, and most of those are in direct competition with the Canadian Junior leagues, depending on which region of Canada.... US teams preferably have only succeded in the WHL, not so much with the OHL/QMJHL.

IN fact, read back on the history of the A, and it did have variations in league name prior to 1936.
 

BOS358

Purveyor of unpopular opinions
Jul 20, 2017
609
329
Boston
The SPHL has done well replacing the ECHL in most of its southern markets and its two current Midwest markets. It could do well replacing the ECHL in other northern markets (along with changing the "Southern" in the league name to "Atlantic").

Depends on how far North you get. Any bottom of the barrel league will have a hard time competing with college games anywhere north of New Jersey.
 

mk80

Registered User
Jul 30, 2012
7,962
8,490
There are very few open markets west of the Mississippi that aren't served by one of the NHL, AHL, ECHL, WHL, USHL, and NAHL. The Central Hockey League which operated in your proposed region was great in the beginning merging with the WPHL but over time its markets got picked off by higher level leagues in the ECHL and AHL, and its smaller markets dropped to the NAHL, some were just bad locations and completely folded. A lot of these markets are fine with the junior teams they have, lets not forget many of the other markets in this footprint are also covered by WSHL, BCHL, and other junior teams, while not huge operations by any means those markets are well served by those teams. Also there is a limited number of "quality" arenas available with the only ones off the top of my head that are currently open with no hockey. What people fail to understand is the SPHL has found its niche in the Southeast serving markets that couldn't survive in other leagues (ECHL, CHL) and Peoria I still think will eventually leave for the ECHL again.
 

PCSPounder

Stadium Groupie
Apr 12, 2012
2,852
564
The Outskirts of Nutria Nanny
I looked at the map. I took history into account.

I solved the problem. I wrote off at least the eastern part of the Mountain West.

Montana has NA3HL. It's all they will afford. Billings looks enticing; it's an island, it's failed with the CHL, it's failed in the WHL, there are reasons for that. Avert your eyes.

Casper Events Center is a solution in search of a problem. Not a sane pro hockey market. It's half the market size of Rapid City, which is itself theoretically half the size necessary for the league it's in.

Colorado is covered. The Avs may have seen better days, but turned fortunes will pack Pepsi Center. The Eagles are well positioned to the north (and next door to an "IT" market in Fort Collins). Colorado Springs has Colorado College. Pueblo is a poor market not worth bothering. Grand Junction is a market the size of Rapid City and similarly isolated, but theirs is a story of economic promise crushed.

Albuquerque? Been there done that folded.

St. George, Utah? Surprisingly the size of Grand Junction and Rapid City. Probably more of a tourism semi-hub (Zion is close, Bryce Canyon not too far). Not as rich.

Provo/Orem: that's an interesting question.

Could someone make a semi-bus league out of the following?

Oregon: Bend, Eugene, Salem
California: Redding, Santa Rosa
Washington: Olympia

Could you peel off Boise and Utah from the ECHL? Wenatchee from BCHL?

Of course, you'd have to convert buildings in Eugene and Salem and build in the places you're not peeling from other leagues.

There's also the matter of Major Junior in Canada possibly being forced to pay players, causing an upheaval in the US Division. Probably a minor possibility at this point, but something to watch. If that can happen, you probably don't even need to recruit California cities. Given one particular airline would serve almost all these cities, it'd be theoretically in that airline's interests to offer a new Anchorage possibility (same airline also serves Santa Rosa, BTW).

So who wants to start the arena fundraiser? Hey, don't laugh TOO hard. ;)
 

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