XploD
Registered User
Against the pylon defensmen of the 70's I think they would've done pretty well.An interesting point was raised also. If the Soviets player played in the NHL in the 70's how well would they have done.
Against the pylon defensmen of the 70's I think they would've done pretty well.An interesting point was raised also. If the Soviets player played in the NHL in the 70's how well would they have done.
Against the pylon defensmen of the 70's I think they would've done pretty well.
You only weaken your argument with a statement like that. Yeah, Bobby Orr, Brad Park, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson (still the standard for the big, mobile defenceman), Guy Lapointe, Denis Potvin, Barry Beck, none of those guys could skate. They just lumbered on the ice, absolutely useless, only getting points because they would chip the puck off the glass and into the neutral zone, where their fleet-footed forwards would take over.Against the pylon defensmen of the 70's I think they would've done pretty well.
Igor Larionov once said that Kharlamov was the best player he had ever seen.
I'm sure if this question was asked the other way around, on a Russian forum, only Gretzky and Lemieux would crack the all-time top 10 list.
Please, don't speak ill of Russian hockey fans...
I would liek to think they are a bit more knowledgable than you give them credit for.
The defensemen looked like pylons in the Challence Cup final which I have on tape. Robinson, Potvin and Salming looked like they didn't belong to the same ice as the best Soviet players like Makarov, Mikhailov, Kapustin and Balderis.
I think A LOT of people are underrating the Soviets here.
Who cares how they would have performed in the NHL - its a hypothetical. All we can do is judge them based on their play against the highest level competition.
Fact is, the Soviets always (repeat always) skated neck and neck with the best the NHL had to offer.....many times making them look foolish. Heck, in '87 Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Messier, etc. were only a goal better than the Soviets despite the Russians having a goalie that couldn't stop a beach ball.
Against the pylon defensmen of the 70's I think they would've done pretty well.
A lot of people here are stating that the Russians in the 70s and 80s would have had no problem dominating in the NHL. That`s all hypothetical. The NHL game is much more physical and the schedule is far more grueling (80 games + playoffs vs. 48 games and no playoffs). I mean no disrespect to the great Russian players of the past, but ...
In 1989, Makarov, Larionov, Krutov, Fetisov, Kasatonov and Mylnikov all came to the NHL. They were considered the best 6 players in the Soviet Union at the time, therefore they should have dominated the NHL: but they didn`t. Makarov was supposed to be the top offensive player in the world after Gretzky, yet despite joining the leagye`s best offence (Calgary) and getting a ton of power-play time he couldn`t crack the NHL`s top 25 scorers. Fetisov and Larionov were the only two who carved out decent NHL careers. Now a lot of factors need to be considered with that, but the question is that if those guys didn`t completely dazzle the NHL, why is it assumed that Kharlamov and Mikhailov would?
How long has the NHL been completely open to Soviets; 10-15 years? If you were to list the 10 best players in that span, how many Soviets would make the list: likely just Fedorov. If it was a top 20 list then just Fedorov and Bure. Yet it assumed that they make up 50% of the best players before 1990?
I think it`s best to treat them seperately and appreciate them for what they were.
That was a fairly ignorant comment. Just curious how often you saw Bill White, Jacques LaPerriere, Serge Savard or Bobby Orr play? Personally when I think of pylon defencemen of the 70s, I think of the game in the Super Series in `76 when the Buffalo Sabres racked up 12 goals against the Soviet Wings. Perreault was skating circles around those guys.
Thanks for the list.
But I have to say that (as the writer himself said) that these lists create controversy.
Bure is IMO too high on that list while Mikhailov is way too low. And the list omits at least one important name with Starshinov.
And, while I agree that he is great, Tretyak is too high on this list. I wouldn`t have him in the Top5.
But, as always, lists are hard to make.
I don't think the amount of games or physicality had anything to do with it. They were the best trained hockey players in the world at the time with 300 days of Soviet military-like training per year. Also speed can beat physicality, as a lot of europeans have shown in the NHL as well as north americans.A lot of people here are stating that the Russians in the 70s and 80s would have had no problem dominating in the NHL. That`s all hypothetical. The NHL game is much more physical and the schedule is far more grueling (80 games + playoffs vs. 48 games and no playoffs). I mean no disrespect to the great Russian players of the past, but ...
In 1989, Makarov, Larionov, Krutov, Fetisov, Kasatonov and Mylnikov all came to the NHL. They were considered the best 6 players in the Soviet Union at the time, therefore they should have dominated the NHL: but they didn`t. Makarov was supposed to be the top offensive player in the world after Gretzky, yet despite joining the leagye`s best offence (Calgary) and getting a ton of power-play time he couldn`t crack the NHL`s top 25 scorers. Fetisov and Larionov were the only two who carved out decent NHL careers. Now a lot of factors need to be considered with that, but the question is that if those guys didn`t completely dazzle the NHL, why is it assumed that Kharlamov and Mikhailov would?
How many Russian players have played 10-15 years in the NHL?How long has the NHL been completely open to Soviets; 10-15 years? If you were to list the 10 best players in that span, how many Soviets would make the list: likely just Fedorov. If it was a top 20 list then just Fedorov and Bure. Yet it assumed that they make up 50% of the best players before 1990?
That's 4 players. When I'm talking about defencemen I'm not talking about the Niedermayer's of the 70's. How many fast defencemen were there back then? You've named 4. If the Soviets were to play in the NHL they would have to face more than these 4 defencemen wouldn't they?That was a fairly ignorant comment. Just curious how often you saw Bill White, Jacques LaPerriere, Serge Savard or Bobby Orr play? Personally when I think of pylon defencemen of the 70s, I think of the game in the Super Series in `76 when the Buffalo Sabres racked up 12 goals against the Soviet Wings. Perreault was skating circles around those guys.
A lot of people here are stating that the Russians in the 70s and 80s would have had no problem dominating in the NHL. That`s all hypothetical. The NHL game is much more physical and the schedule is far more grueling (80 games + playoffs vs. 48 games and no playoffs). I mean no disrespect to the great Russian players of the past, but ...
In 1989, Makarov, Larionov, Krutov, Fetisov, Kasatonov and Mylnikov all came to the NHL. They were considered the best 6 players in the Soviet Union at the time, therefore they should have dominated the NHL: but they didn`t. Makarov was supposed to be the top offensive player in the world after Gretzky, yet despite joining the leagye`s best offence (Calgary) and getting a ton of power-play time he couldn`t crack the NHL`s top 25 scorers. Fetisov and Larionov were the only two who carved out decent NHL careers. Now a lot of factors need to be considered with that, but the question is that if those guys didn`t completely dazzle the NHL, why is it assumed that Kharlamov and Mikhailov would?
How long has the NHL been completely open to Soviets; 10-15 years? If you were to list the 10 best players in that span, how many Soviets would make the list: likely just Fedorov. If it was a top 20 list then just Fedorov and Bure. Yet it assumed that they make up 50% of the best players before 1990?
I think it`s best to treat them seperately and appreciate them for what they were.
That was a fairly ignorant comment. Just curious how often you saw Bill White, Jacques LaPerriere, Serge Savard or Bobby Orr play? Personally when I think of pylon defencemen of the 70s, I think of the game in the Super Series in `76 when the Buffalo Sabres racked up 12 goals against the Soviet Wings. Perreault was skating circles around those guys.
so if you ask me, everything is relative. and I seriously doubt that anybody here has seen enough of Canadian AND Soviet hockey to make a valuable list. after all, NHL games were not televised in Russia, same goes for the Soviet league in Canada.
How long has the NHL been completely open to Soviets; 10-15 years? If you were to list the 10 best players in that span, how many Soviets would make the list: likely just Fedorov. If it was a top 20 list then just Fedorov and Bure. Yet it assumed that they make up 50% of the best players before 1990?
You're very right about that. That's why it bugs me when people say "no Soviet player can be on the top 10 list of all time", as if it was definite.True also,Good point.
The best of all time lists are contraversial among people just when including nhl players and becomes impossible when trying to put Soviet players into the mix. Fans on both sides of the argument just have'nt seen enough of each others players to make a list that the majority could agree on.
It's really just too difficult to do..
Top 10 overall? Not a chance.
Off of that list the only one thats remotely close is Kharlamov.
There isn't one Soviet player that would crack the top ten all time.
You're very right about that. That's why it bugs me when people say "no Soviet player can be on the top 10 list of all time", as if it were definite.
One thing to take into account is that when the Soviet Union collapsed so did the Russian hockey system. In fact, the RSL came inches from disbanding around 1995 or 1996. As a result, player development also suffered. Its not hard to notice that the players born from say 1974 to 1981 have been rather subpar compared to previous generations -- and these are the majority of the players who would have come over in the last 10-15 years.
Its interesting to note that since Russian hockey has sort of got back on its feet (and more money is being pumped into development) Russia has produced arguably 3 of the top 5 'young' forwards in the league (Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin).
Joke of a World Championships?
Well, just as well we could talk about joke of a Canada Cup. At least, the first Canada Cup, since Soviet Union didn´t even have the best possible team there.
And hey, let´s talk about joke of a sport also. There are (still) about 6-7 countries where hockey is being played seriously.
And when you have seen 30-year old rookies (like Makarov and Fetisov were) dominate NHL??? Don´t you think they would have been more productive and dominant had they played in the NHL in their twenties? I think both were better than Peter Stastny and he did pretty well, didn´t he???