Something fundamentaly flawed about Damphousse thought process

[Cole Caulifield]

We give them all the tools and a big roll back for them to set budgets and run their business. We're ready to do a lot of things, but we're not going to run their business on top of that.

I think it's up to them to look at their numbers and decided how much they want to pay the players. There's nothing in the offer that we gave them that forces them to pay more than they want.

Here Damphousse doesn't understand one fundamental thing about the owners motives and the league economical dynamics. The league is not one homogeneous and uniform business. It's composed of 30 different business, 30 differents markets with 30 different owners with different motives.

Damphousse reasoning is fundamentally flawed because of 2 reasons :

First the big markets do what's good for them. They give generous rises to their RFAs and sign UFAs to huge multi years deals. Those big markets aren't in danger. They are fine with the last agreement. They are responsible. It's the other teams, who can't compete with the big markets. They try to be responsible, but at one point they can't follow anymore. The league ain't trying to get cost certainty for Detroit, Colorado, NYR, Toronto and Philadelphia. It's for the other teams they're doing it.

Second the owners can't get together to decide the players salaries at any time during the year because that's automatically called collusion. The only chance they have to decide the players salaries is when they negotiate a CBA. Last time they signed one they were irresponsible and agreed to a system that worked totally in the players favor. This time, they're trying to be responsible by putting in place a system that will put every teams on the same level. And getting cost certainty is the only way to make the owners responsible as a group.

The only conclusion possible is that either Damphousse doesn't get it at all, or he's just saying it because it sounds good when he's quoted on TSN. Either way, he, Linden and co are misleading the players into a dead end.

Then Damphousse also said that little gem :

It was clear before this week to me that we weren't going to have a season

Bravo Vinny, so you were getting into this with absolutely no intention to get a deal done.

The players are a bunch of babies with absolutely no guts. If they really were men, they'd get in this with the owners. They'd sign a deal that puts them into some kind of partnership with the owners. They'd assume the fact that the league is the 4th sport, they'd agree to get less than players in the other 3 big leagues. If the league became healthy again, they'd reap the rewards. But deep down inside, they know that the product they are putting on the ice ain't as attractive to the fans than the 3 others sports (I disagree but economically facts point to it).

Each day that passes, makes it more essential for the owners to get what they want because each day that passes the pie is being eaten by the 3 other glutons (MLB, NFL and the NBA). Each day that passes, the owners have less and less money to pay the players what they want. They're fighting a losing battle, because even if the owners bend first, what will the players be left with ? A 20-24 teams league with even fewer money for the owners to throw around.

The worst thing about this is that the players would all flock toward the hard capped WHA if it started next season. And that cap would be lower than what they NHL is offering.

I was sure that the players would yield before the season was lost until now. They won't, and they're shooting themselves in the collective feet.

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[Greschner4]

Yep.

Vinny didn't get where he is today because of his brains and he just keeps on showing us how true that is.

 

[Vinceee]

Give him a peace chance, Lot of Hockey players didnt finish their high school...

He should mind his own business, he keeps saying ********...

 

[creative giant*]

I think it's up to them to look at their numbers and decided how much they want to pay the players. There's nothing in the offer that we gave them that forces them to pay more than they want. .

This is the part that always makes me shake my head. Other players have said it as well. I wonder if Keith Tkachuk and Alexei Yashin feel the same way? The fact is the players sometimes do force the team to pay more than they want to by withholding their services. So, if we believe what the NHLPA exectives have been saying we should never see another holdout in Hockey again.. Ever! Because they would never force an owner to pay them more than they want to pay them.

 

[Greschner4]

This is the part that always makes me shake my head. Other players have said it as well. I wonder if Keith Tkachuk and Alexei Yashin feel the same way? The fact is the players sometimes do force the team to pay more than they want to by withholding their services. So, if we believe what the NHLPA exectives have been saying we should never see another holdout in Hockey again.. Ever! Because they would never force an owner to pay them more than they want to pay them.

No Vinny, there's nothing in the offer making them pay more than they want ... but why should there be when your hack allies in the media that publicly call owners "cheap" and publicly opine that "they don't want to win" when one of your brethren hold out can do it for you?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

This is the part that always makes me shake my head. Other players have said it as well. I wonder if Keith Tkachuk and Alexei Yashin feel the same way? The fact is the players sometimes do force the team to pay more than they want to by withholding their services. So, if we believe what the NHLPA exectives have been saying we should never see another holdout in Hockey again.. Ever! Because they would never force an owner to pay them more than they want to pay them.

Excellent point ! And yet another reason why it's ridiculous for Damphousse to say that the owners have to be responsible.

 

[grego]

I also find the NHLPA idea of saying their are too many teams in the league funny. Do Damphousse and Linden really believe they would still be playing in the NHL at their age if it was only a 20 team league. If they got the deal for the players and dropped 10 of the weaker teams from the NHL, the old guys that are many of the NHLPA representatives would never skate another shift in the NHL.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The league is not one homogeneous and uniform business. It's composed of 30 different business, 30 differents markets with 30 different owners with different motives.

That's the problem. It's not 30 different businesses. The NHL is the corporation. None of the 30 teams can exist outside of the NHL.

And yes, there are 30 different cities, both big and small markets, that make up the NHL. That's why there has to be a salary cap, a salary floor, and revenue sharing. Or else there is no point whatsoever to having any teams outside of the top 5 or 6 markets. They should just put 5 or 6 teams in the city of NY, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia, and another city or two.

The 30 individual teams don't compete against each other financially. The NHL competes financially with the other major leagues, and the individual teams compete financially with the other individual teams from the other major sports in the same city.

The problem is that too many people view pro sports as your normal, everyday business.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

First the big markets do what's good for them. They give generous rises to their RFAs and sign UFAs to huge multi years deals. Those big markets aren't in danger. They are fine with the last agreement. They are responsible. It's the other teams, who can't compete with the big markets. They try to be responsible, but at one point they can't follow anymore. The league ain't trying to get cost certainty for Detroit, Colorado, NYR, Toronto and Philadelphia. It's for the other teams they're doing it.

It's not all the big market teams that have given out the ridiculous contracts.

Some of the worst contracts in recent history were given out by so-called smaller market teams: Carolina, Boston, Tampa, Anaheim, Pittsburgh, and Washington all gave out some of the most ridiculous deals in recent history.

 

[Greschner4]

I also find the NHLPA idea of saying their are too many teams in the league funny. Do Damphousse and Linden really believe they would still be playing in the NHL at their age if it was only a 20 team league. If they got the deal for the players and dropped 10 of the weaker teams from the NHL, the old guys that are many of the NHLPA representatives would never skate another shift in the NHL.

No real union would suggest that the employer cut union jobs like the NHLPA people are doing ... but then again no real union would have its members go take the jobs of European workers in the same industry like the NHLPA did ... oh, and a real union would stand in solidarity when arena workers or league referees or the like went out on strike ....

 

[NHLFanSince2020]

Every time an NHLPA member opens his mouth, their perceived collective IQ drops another few %.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

That's the problem. It's not 30 different businesses. The NHL is the corporation. None of the 30 teams can exist outside of the NHL.

And yes, there are 30 different cities, both big and small markets, that make up the NHL. That's why there has to be a salary cap, a salary floor, and revenue sharing. Or else there is no point whatsoever to having any teams outside of the top 5 or 6 markets. They should just put 5 or 6 teams in the city of NY, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia, and another city or two.

The 30 individual teams don't compete against each other financially. The NHL competes financially with the other major leagues, and the individual teams compete financially with the other individual teams from the other major sports in the same city.

The problem is that too many people view pro sports as your normal, everyday business.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. But you said it way better than me.

 

[Greschner4]

That's the problem. It's not 30 different businesses. The NHL is the corporation. None of the 30 teams can exist outside of the NHL.

And yes, there are 30 different cities, both big and small markets, that make up the NHL. That's why there has to be a salary cap, a salary floor, and revenue sharing. Or else there is no point whatsoever to having any teams outside of the top 5 or 6 markets. They should just put 5 or 6 teams in the city of NY, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia, and another city or two.

The 30 individual teams don't compete against each other financially. The NHL competes financially with the other major leagues, and the individual teams compete financially with the other individual teams from the other major sports in the same city.

The problem is that too many people view pro sports as your normal, everyday business.

Exactly. The NHL is in the business of selling hockey competition and its franchises need to agree on certain things to be able to do that. They agree for example on the rules of the game ... which other businesses don't do. They agree on the number of players on each team ... which other businesses don't do. Other businesses don't have, as the very thing they're selling, legitimate competition between its businesses.

Now they've agreed that in the future its having each team pay its players something approximating the same amount will promote competition among its 30 teams which will thereby increase the interest of the public in what it's selling. Given the lessons of baseball and the recent NHL, that agreement makes perfect sense.

 

[Hockey_Nut99]

I'm 100% on the owners side but one thing isn't clear to me. If the owners argument is that they want to link salaries to revenues, then why can't they get together with the players like the NFL does, and go through all the numbers? Even if the numbers are correct, I would think the NHL would confirm them no problem and form a partnership. Then, when the players see the leagues losing money, they will take a cap.

Basically a regular worker can't just go to an owner and say "Hey, I want to see your books if your going to reduce my wage!!"

However, if the owner says he wants to link salaries to revenue, then I think the players have every right to look at the books so they can determine that figure. I've said differently otherwise on this issue, but now think they are entitled to see the books.

 

[avalanche_country]

I'v never liked him and I hope he never gets to play one game in an Avs uni

 

[Cole Caulifield]

It's not all the big market teams that have given out the ridiculous contracts.

Some of the worst contracts in recent history were given out by so-called smaller market teams: Carolina, Boston, Tampa, Anaheim, Pittsburgh, and Washington all gave out some of the most ridiculous deals in recent history.

Agreed. But Philadelphia also gave huge money to RFA Simon Gagné. They could, and they did.

Also Anaheim was forced into the Kariya deal, direct consequence of the RFA offer sheet to Sakic by the Rangers.

What you say is true. It just furthers the need for a cap though. It's not only the big markets, altough they are a part of it. You just can't have 30 responsible owners. Some of them are spoiled descendants of their rich dad. They buy teams to have fun with them for 2-3 years and when they don't win anything, and that they see they lose money, they try to get rid of their toy. You can't possibly ask all the owners who are responsible to live with the guys who are not. They need protection from the bad decisions of others. It's ridiculous for Damphousse to say they have to control themselves. He's living in an utopic dream where he is an ostrich with his head 3 feet into the ground.

 

[Bauer83]

It's not all the big market teams that have given out the ridiculous contracts.

Some of the worst contracts in recent history were given out by so-called smaller market teams: Carolina, Boston, Tampa, Anaheim, Pittsburgh, and Washington all gave out some of the most ridiculous deals in recent history.

And why where they forced to toss out the big dollars? It was because some big market team would offer the player that same amount, and that is the only way that those teams could get a player of high calibre. Now it failed miserably for a lot of those teams, but that is where the competitive balance issue is most forefront. These teams are now in trouble for trying to sign a star and be competitive. That is what is wrong.

 

[kerrly]

I'm 100% on the owners side but one thing isn't clear to me. If the owners argument is that they want to link salaries to revenues, then why can't they get together with the players like the NFL does, and go through all the numbers? Even if the numbers are correct, I would think the NHL would confirm them no problem and form a partnership. Then when the players see the leagues losing money, they will take a cap.

If the NHLPA won't accept this, there is nothing the league can do about it. The NHLPA refuses anything like this, that way they can just write it off and say that the numbers are wrong. I do believe that the NHL sometime last season opened the door for the NHLPA to be involved in an audit of the books, and they declined it. Bettman then hired Levitt without the NHLPA's knowledge and did one anyways.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Agreed. But Philadelphia also gave huge money to RFA Simon Gagné. They could, and they did.

The Flyers signed Gagne to his deal, after the Lightning had given out the ridiculous deal to Brad Richards, which gave Gagne something to compare himself to.

 

[Hockey_Nut99]

Players use that as an excuse. "They should watch how they spend their money". Total BS. The owners do watch how they spend their money in other businesses. The NHL is entirely different. Players like Vinny move around. They go to the highest bidder. There isn't much loyalty shown in this league. You have to win in the NHL and not everyone can. It's so competitive. Sometimes bad deals get done b/c bidding wars start. That will never ever end. Restraints need to be made for the good of the league.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I'm 100% on the owners side but one thing isn't clear to me. If the owners argument is that they want to link salaries to revenues, then why can't they get together with the players like the NFL does, and go through all the numbers? Even if the numbers are correct, I would think the NHL would confirm them no problem and form a partnership. Then when the players see the leagues losing money, they will take a cap.

I think the players realize that the NHL ain't an economical paradise. They don't want the same deal than the NFL because they know that under such a proposition they'd not get the same money than they did for the past 10 years. The players aren't honest in their intentions.

I would compare this situation to poor parents bringing their kids at the mall. Both parents just got a huge paycut for the company they were working in. They've spoiled their kids for years thinking they had the money to do it. Now they only have money to buy the kids clothes, and the kids are making a scene in the Toy R us for all the games they want, but that the parents can't pay them.

 

[GirardIsStupid]

:
First the big markets do what's good for them. They give generous rises to their RFAs and sign UFAs to huge multi years deals. Those big markets aren't in danger. They are fine with the last agreement. They are responsible. It's the other teams, who can't compete with the big markets. They try to be responsible, but at one point they can't follow anymore. The league ain't trying to get cost certainty for Detroit, Colorado, NYR, Toronto and Philadelphia. It's for the other teams they're doing it.

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! With a 40 mill cap, Colorado, Toronto, and the NYR will make huge sums of money while Calgary, Nashville, Carolina will only be able to break even, or make a profit with a good playoff run. This lockout is ALL ABOUT THE RICH CLUBS. Read what the Redwings have been saying. Read what Ed Snider has been saying. These bic clubs weren't fine with the last agreement because they feared the value of their franchises has diminished quite a bit. Now they want to raise the stock of their team so that, if in the event they want to sell it, they'll make a pretty penny.

Btw, many of the large market teams have been fairly responsible with their money. It has only been a few bad apples that have raised player salaries: Boston, NYR, Carolina, Montreal, Anaheim are the ones that come to mind. How many of those clubs are part of the large market clubs??? Get your facts straight fans. This lockout isn't about improving competitive balance. Nor is it to reduce the ticket prices. Nor is it all about saving the small markets. This lockout is only about the rich becoming richer at the expense of the fans.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

The Flyers signed Gagne to his deal, after the Lightning had given out the ridiculous deal to Brad Richards, which gave Gagne something to compare himself to.

Okay, but would you agree with the rest of my post ?

 

[Hobey Baker]

Originally Posted by Vincent Damphousse
We give them all the tools and a big roll back for them to set budgets and run their business. We're ready to do a lot of things, but we're not going to run their business on top of that.

No Vinny, you're going to RUIN their business by only accepting a short term fix.

 

[Hockey_Nut99]

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! With a 40 mill cap, Colorado, Toronto, and the NYR will make huge sums of money while Calgary, Nashville, Carolina will only be able to break even, or make a profit with a good playoff run. This lockout is ALL ABOUT THE RICH CLUBS. Read what the Redwings have been saying. Read what Ed Snider has been saying. These bic clubs weren't fine with the last agreement because they feared the value of their franchises has diminished quite a bit. Now they want to raise the stock of their team so that, if in the event they want to sell it, they'll make a pretty penny.

Btw, many of the large market teams have been fairly responsible with their money. It has only been a few bad apples that have raised player salaries: Boston, NYR, Carolina, Montreal, Anaheim are the ones that come to mind. How many of those clubs are part of the large market clubs??? Get your facts straight fans. This lockout isn't about improving competitive balance. Nor is it to reduce the ticket prices. Nor is it all about saving the small markets. This lockout is only about the rich becoming richer at the expense of the fans.

I don't think most people care that the owners will become richer. That's a given. If they already make money, they will make tons more with a cap. Players are a different story. They actually play on our teams. We watch them. There isn't competitive balance in the NHL. Nobody remembers second place. Screw the people who say "well uhhh geeeezz uhhhh..There were like 12 different teams in the conference finals the last 3 years!!"....Besides Tampa Bay, who won? ALways Detroit,New Jersey, Colorado, Or dallas the last 10 years!!