So has Ovechkin's potential been downgraded?

[leafaholix*]

Didn't Marc-Andre Fleury say "... we're going to beat the Russians" ?

What's the difference?

It's called confidence.

 

[Deleted member 3032]

1) At the Fanfest target shooting pointing to Marc-Andre Fleury and saying "i do this to you tomorrow" and hitting 4/5

IF this was meant seriously, are players no longer allowed to try to intimidate other players?

3) Quote on Team Canada through his interpreter: 'We'll be able to handle them, we are better."

How is that cocky and full of himself? He said "WE'LL be able to handle them, WE are better." How does that make it sound like he thinks HE is better then everyone else? You think the NJ Devils won last year by going against a higher seeded team and being like "Well, we hope that they don't spank us too hard. We hope to get a few lucky bounces." NO!! You go in confident cause that is the only way you can play well. If you are worried you're going to lose cause the other team is better, what do you think is going to happen that game?

Also, keep in mind that translators are not perfect. Languages do not translate perfectly. We have no idea what exactly Ovechkin meant or how it sounded in Russian.

4) During the gold medal game, and the whole playoff part of the tournament for that matter, stayed unable to back up his words. So let's do something really childlish like taking a blatant dive in front of the Canadian goalie to celebrate how really frustrated we are!

He thinks (or knows) he is head and shoulders above the rest talent-wise. Call me a hard sell on him, but I am looking forward to seeing him try to prove it. He has the talent but I expect a rough adjustment.

Sounds more like you're frustrated Canada lost. He didn't say "*I* will beat Canada and score 9 goals and 15 assists. He said "*WE* can handle them". You know, the team concept thing that you're missing while bashing him. As far as him saying he was going to do that against Fleury -- so what? How many times has a player told a goalie he was going to score on them... how many times did they actually score on the goalie? It is more to get in their head and try and make them focus less. Not to say, "I am the best. I will score on you cause I'm better then everyone else."

I don't mean this insultingly, but you seem to hate this player with no real reason. You're picking at things that mean nothing and using that to show he is cocky and thinks he is better then everyone else. Everything he's done or said shows he is down to earth. If you're going to take one comment about him where he says HIS TEAM will handle another team and take that to mean he is full of himself then you need to take another look at the situation real closely. Just my opinion.

 

[Sundried TOmato]

He has the tools, but a massive ego.

Hilarious. Ovechkin is as humble and mild-mannered as they come.

 

[Daniel_Tkaczuk]

I have no problem with anyone thinking my allegiances are with Canada as far as tournments go, because I am from Canada. Just really from what I've seen I am not as impressed as with other players that have come up in recent years. Again, I've said he has skill and he has potential. But Ive been to a Russian practice and have seen his teammates get frustrated with him... he hasn't performed up to expectations in the WJCs... I just don't think he's the savior everyone seems to think he is. He has to be fallible somewhere. Everyone has a downside. Even Gretzky did.

There's nothing wrong with thinking critically. No one else has said one bad thing about him on this thread yet.

 

[Sundried TOmato]

I just don't think he's the savior everyone seems to think he is. He has to be fallible somewhere. Everyone has a downside. Even Gretzky did.

You are correct - Ovechkin has a downside. But it ain't his character.

 

[Daniel_Tkaczuk]

mild mannered as they come = put up and shut up

 

[Sting]

Did Gretzky really have a downside though? He was far from cocky...he made everyone around him better, was a natural leader, and did everything on the ice better than anyone else. You can't say his downfall was physical play because he didn't need to when he was scoring 150+ points a season.

 

[Daniel_Tkaczuk]

Did Gretzky really have a downside though? He was far from cocky...he made everyone around him better, was a natural leader, and did everything on the ice better than anyone else. You can't say his downfall was physical play because he didn't need to when he was scoring 150+ points a season.

If there was something bad to say about Gretz it was his physical play. He didn't need to be physical, but it was part of his game that was lacking.

You are not saying he is... but Ovechkin is not Wayne Gretzky.

 

[Sundried TOmato]

mild mannered as they come = put up and shut up

I've observed Ovechkin since he was 14. I have seen him play in the Russian league, from the stands. I have seen him with his teammates, coaches, media, and fans. Ovechkin is a Joe Sakic type. He is very quiet and unassuming. In fact, he may be too quiet. He lacks Kovalchuk's and Nash's fire. That's his greatest downside, IMO. I think Ovechkin may defer to older players out of respect, instead of taking a leadership position.

I dunno. I liked Kovalchuk a lot better because of his exuberance. Ovechkin is very mature and not that excitable. It may or may not be a good thing once he enters the NHL. I think he is a better “missing piece†for a team like Columbus, than a “cornerstone†for a team like Pittsburgh.

 

[Daniel_Tkaczuk]

I've observed Ovechkin since he was 14. I have seen him play in the Russian league, from the stands. I have seen him with his teammates, coaches, media, and fans. Ovechkin is a Joe Sakic type. He is very quiet and unassuming. In fact, he may be too quiet. He lacks Kovalchuk's and Nash's fire. That's his greatest downside, IMO. I think Ovechkin may defer to older players out of respect, instead of taking a leadership position.

I dunno. I liked Kovalchuk a lot better because of his exuberance. Ovechkin is very mature and not that excitable. It may or may not be a good thing once he enters the NHL. I think he is a better “missing piece” for a team like Columbus, than a “cornerstone” for a team like Pittsburgh.

I can't argue that if that was your experience. And I agree 100% with the 'missing piece' projection looking at it that way.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Did Gretzky really have a downside though? He was far from cocky...

This is exactly what is wrong with the internet. People are rewriting history and compare the personalities of young players with the personalities of stars *as they remember them today*.

Gretzky was cocky alright when he was actually still OLDER than Ovechkin. He came in the league and yes, was prone to being flashy, celebrated goals exuberantly and was way overconfident.

Gretzky said himself most of the Oils were a brash, cocky group who was concentrating far too much on their individual abilities than game results and he was actually FLOATING out there at times. They were also prone to racking up points when the game was out of reach (something that again would make fanboys go in epileptic ceizures today). The Oilers may have been one of the cockiest team ever in hockey.

I think he attributed much of his maturation to going in the playoffs and particularly, the last Oils loss to the Isles, who were the current dynasty. Said the Oils were in the lockerroom and pretty disappointed after the loss but he had the impression they had given everything and the Isles were just too good. Apparently, he went nearby the lockerroom with Messier and saw all Isles guys had humongous pack of ice, black eyes, many were limping and looked completely drained compared to his Oils. They had been the better men because they had played way harder and to the limit. So Messier turned to him (or maybe it was Gretz, can't remember) and said: this is the way we need to play next playoffs.

The way I see posters around here portray Sakic, Yzerman, Gretzky, you'd think these guys were never young, never brash and never cheated. The reality is, for all the whiplash Spezza takes constantly about his defensive play, Steve Yzerman wasn't much better when he came in this league. As for Joe Sakic, he probably couldn't have spelled the word e-f-f-o-r-t to save his life and probably knew more about genetic engineering than about defense and backchecking.

The young guys will mature. But at this age, this is perfectly normal in some cases, particularly from the more gifted.

 

[Ric Flair]

1) At the Fanfest target shooting pointing to Marc-Andre Fleury and saying "i do this to you tomorrow" and hitting 4/5

Makes him seem like Ivan Drago from Rocky IV. I like it.

 

[Daniel_Tkaczuk]

Makes him seem like Ivan Drago from Rocky IV. I like it.

hahaha maybe that's what he was going for, i am not sure

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

And something else - Russians are different people. And trashtalking isn't uncommon between players - I would encourage trashtalking than just staying put, taking a number and shoving a stick up the guy's grill a period later.

Personally, I think it has also much to do with player's agents. Russian agents seem to suck an unbelievable amount of ass.

Most of the North American agents coach carefully their youngsters to say the right things so that fanboys will listen carefully to the painful cliches, nod dumbly and say "that kid looks like he has a nice attitude, wow!"

PR seems to be a thing that is poorly handled in certain part of Europe, particularly Eastern. I was working in A&R and my boss had these piles of entertainment zines (most having to do with music) and he was a fanatic about keeping up with pop music acts from around the world. I noticed some drastic differences. Also, many managers there had more proeminent roles with the press it seems. And from the interview, you could see PR was at a PREHISTORICAL level over there.

It's not that we're nicer over here. We just know what to say and when to say it to feed the masses their daily dose of cliches and keep their mouth shut.

Hockey players are not crazy. You've got a couple of exceptions, guys like Roenick and Hull. But the others, they look at the abuse these guys are taking and they just don't feel like going there. Think there aren't some players who probably have MUCH more on their mind than Roenick ever did? Yeah, right.

The players agent role is tremendously important in this age of information. They are even there to make sure the player will feed the proper amount of bull**** to teams interviewing them prior to the draft. It's part of the game and I think this is severely lacking in Europe. The players are just not as PR-conscious and don't surround themselves with people who will make them avoid unpleasant situations.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I would like to hear some feedback from people associated with the industry as it concerns Ovechkin's potential. Based on what I've seen and heard, he seems to be a great prospect with all the tools, but I'm no expert. I do have a strong feeling he's not going to reinvent the sport as many around here would like to believe.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Based on what I've seen and heard, he seems to be a great prospect with all the tools, but I'm not expert. I do have a strong feeling he's not going to reinvent the sport as many around here would like to believe.

He was an early bloomer. For reasons I cannot completely understand, a lot of observers seem to always be convinced that progression of performance is going up year after year instead of looking at the player for what he is, the environment he is in and what he will likely become.

That's how some people ended up calling Ovechkin the next Gretzky last year.

Ovechkin is going through the exact same things all hyped prospects are going through. After a "honeymoon" with observers, it is now the time to pick on him, overcriticize his game up until the draft. Then, next year, it will be Crosby's time while another young 16 years old who can't shave will be hyped.

The cycle never ends :p

 

[Daniel_Tkaczuk]

Personally, I think it has also much to do with player's agents. Russian agents seem to suck an unbelievable amount of ass.

Most of the North American agents coach carefully their youngsters to say the right things so that fanboys will listen carefully to the painful cliches, nod dumbly and say "that kid looks like he has a nice attitude, wow!"

PR seems to be a thing that is poorly handled in certain part of Europe, particularly Eastern. I was working in A&R and my boss had these piles of entertainment zines (most having to do with music) and he was a fanatic about keeping up with pop music acts from around the world. I noticed some drastic differences. Also, many managers there had more proeminent roles with the press it seems. And from the interview, you could see PR was at a PREHISTORICAL level over there.

It's not that we're nicer over here. We just know what to say and when to say it to feed the masses their daily dose of cliches and keep their mouth shut.

Hockey players are not crazy. You've got a couple of exceptions, guys like Roenick and Hull. But the others, they look at the abuse these guys are taking and they just don't feel like going there. Think there aren't some players who probably have MUCH more on their mind than Roenick ever did? Yeah, right.

The players agent role is tremendously important in this age of information. They are even there to make sure the player will feed the proper amount of bull**** to teams interviewing them prior to the draft. It's part of the game and I think this is severely lacking in Europe. The players are just not as PR-conscious and don't surround themselves with people who will make them avoid unpleasant situations.

Is Ovechkin still hanging out with Don Meehan? Has he signed with him?

 

[leafaholix*]

I would like to hear some feedback from people associated with the industry as it concerns Ovechkin's potential. Based on what I've seen and heard, he seems to be a great prospect with all the tools, but I'm not expert. I do have a strong feeling he's not going to reinvent the sport as many around here would like to believe.

I don't think anyone's expecting him to reinvent the game.

 

[West]

He always made me think of how people talked about Mat Sundin coming into the league. They won't play exactly the same but in terms of size, skating, skill and overall impact I've always thought Mat Sundin. I think it fits as well now as it did last year.

 

[leafaholix*]

Not far off, I don't think.

He models his game after Owen Nolan and Sergei Fedorov apparentely.

 

[The Big P]

So Vlad, I see you've also read his autobiography.

 

[st_roland]

He always made me think of how people talked about Mat Sundin coming into the league. They won't play exactly the same but in terms of size, skating, skill and overall impact I've always thought Mat Sundin. I think it fits as well now as it did last year.

If the caps get ovechkin and he turns into a Mats Sundin type player, I will be thrilled.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

So Vlad, I see you've also read his autobiography.

Yes

Particularly in the early 90s, I loved reading hockey books. My guitar teacher was a history student AND a hockey freak. He had shelves filled with hockey history goodness.

Gretz's bio wasn't the most interesting but there were still some great moments. It's vague now, but I remember his depiction of McSorley was hilarious at times. That guy was wild! :p

I read another (unauthorized) book on Gretz that was mildly interesting but not terribly credible.

 

[Crosbyfan]

He was an early bloomer. For reasons I cannot completely understand, a lot of observers seem to always be convinced that progression of performance is going up year after year instead of looking at the player for what he is, the environment he is in and what he will likely become.

That's how some people ended up calling Ovechkin the next Gretzky last year.

Ovechkin is going through the exact same things all hyped prospects are going through. After a "honeymoon" with observers, it is now the time to pick on him, overcriticize his game up until the draft. Then, next year, it will be Crosby's time while another young 16 years old who can't shave will be hyped.

The cycle never ends :p

Except sometimes the guy who looks like the next Orr or Gretzky BECOMES Orr or Gretzky. Sid is the real deal. He's 16, third in the Q League in plus/minus and doesn't play for Gatineau (over 3 times the team plus/minus as Rimouski). He's not going to have to stop and mend his defensive game to prepare for the NHL. He is as good as the "hype" if you take a reasonable average (whatever that means) and recognize that it represents how good he is and not how good he will become.

He could put on the brakes next year and be outshone by the "next" 16 year old but you would have to be seriously pessimistic to expect that to happen.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Except sometimes the guy who looks like the next Orr or Gretzky BECOMES Orr or Gretzky. Sid is the real deal.

Define "real deal". Seriously, it could mean a hundred things.

Especially when the words "Gretzky and Orr" are 4-5 words away from "Real Deal".