Small markets face big trouble

[Resolute]

Sure team building is the biggest factor in all 30 teams not just Leafs or bigger martets ..

The biggest advantage is the Leafs who have been built around 34-38 year old player can now be built around 27-28 year old franchise players in the future .. The old CBA never allowed them to do that with out paying a kings ransom in prospects and picks if some team was willing to trade them one ..

I agree the budget comes down but so did player prices .. Leafs no longer need to pay a Reichel 3+ mil and now can pay a much better player equal or less under the new CBA and player prices. Perhaps a Paul Kariya comes now with a 3 mil price tag.??

Leafs biggest weakness of old CBA was that an older injury prone team was the best choice they had for a Cup run .. Now they can build a team without having to have very many players over 34+ to do it .. No need to ever go into a full rebuild in the process as players just hitting their primes can be had for free ..

Leafs have Mats under contract for 3 more years .. and near the player max 20% at 6.8 mil price .. So when his contract is over Rick Nash, Dany Heatley and Ilya Kovalchuk hit the market ..So leafs have to have CAP space availabe to offer the max because Mats comes off the books ..

Its the TB's and Ottawa's that going to have the biggest problem keeping cores together. Teams that do not have young cores or lots of young top prospects that require $$ to keep, can freely buy to build teams ..

Two major league problems with your reply:

First, the Leafs were never forced to pay Reichel $3 million. They chose to pay guys like him ridiculous money, and therefore set the bar for everyone else. Please do not try to pass the Leafs off as a victim of the last CBA.

Related to that point, the Leafs never had to build a team of over-the-hill free agents. They could have, you know... drafted and traded for younger, better players. Strange concept in Toronto I know, but it has worked elsewhere.

The second problem is that you are simply assuming many of these players will simply want to come to Toronto. The market for top end talent is no longer six teams. Toronto will have a lot more competition now for those free agents, and they wont be able to even go after all of them. Sure Nash, Heatley and Kovalchuk might hit the market, but there is no guarantee that they will choose to leave their current teams, nor is there any guarantee that any of them will choose to go to Toronto.

Regardless, because of the cap, Toronto can really only go after one of those guys. That is exactly the point. The Leafs, and other large market teams, cannot load up on free agent talent anymore, which will spread the talent pool around, and down to the smaller market teams.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Not sure what georgous girl is ??

... didn't think you would ....

 

[NewGuy]

Leafs have Mats under contract for 3 more years .. and near the player max 20% at 6.8 mil price .. So when his contract is over Rick Nash, Dany Heatley and Ilya Kovalchuk hit the market ..So leafs have to have CAP space availabe to offer the max because Mats comes off the books ..

Its the TB's and Ottawa's that going to have the biggest problem keeping cores together. Teams that do not have young cores or lots of young top prospects that require $$ to keep, can freely buy to build teams ..

Realisticly, how many players can you offer the max salary (or somewhere near it) to.

One? For sure, most teams should be able to do this. Maybe every team can afford to have a star player.

1 player @ 7.8 million. 22 players left to divide up 31.2 million (1.418 million each).

Two? Maybe, but teams will have to start filling out the rest of their roster with some min salary players.

2 players @ 15.6 million. 21 players left to divide up 23.4 million (1.114 million each).

Three? Yikes, 60% of your salaries tied up in 3 players. I sure hope they can play a lot. I would suggest any GM who tries this would shortly be checking out the classifieds.

3 players @ 23.4 million. 20 players left to divide up 15.6 million (0.780 million each).

Four? Never. Actually it's impossible. The rest of your team would have an average salary below the league minimum.

4 players @ 31.2 million. 19 players left to divide up 7.8 million (0.411 million each)

Conclusion:

Teams will be able to sign one maybe two max salary players. Three would mean the rest of your team would probably suck, even two is starting to push it. So the Leafs will probably be able to sign one of Nash, Kovalchuk, and Heatley. Two if they want to push it, but then most of the mid-level free agents are probably out of their price range.

 

[Mess]

Two major league problems with your reply:

First, the Leafs were never forced to pay Reichel $3 million. They chose to pay guys like him ridiculous money, and therefore set the bar for everyone else. Please do not try to pass the Leafs off as a victim of the last CBA.

Related to that point, the Leafs never had to build a team of over-the-hill free agents. They could have, you know... drafted and traded for younger, better players. Strange concept in Toronto I know, but it has worked elsewhere.

The second problem is that you are simply assuming many of these players will simply want to come to Toronto. The market for top end talent is no longer six teams. Toronto will have a lot more competition now for those free agents, and they wont be able to even go after all of them. Sure Nash, Heatley and Kovalchuk might hit the market, but there is no guarantee that they will choose to leave their current teams, nor is there any guarantee that any of them will choose to go to Toronto.

Regardless, because of the cap, Toronto can really only go after one of those guys. That is exactly the point. The Leafs, and other large market teams, cannot load up on free agent talent anymore, which will spread the talent pool around, and down to the smaller market teams.

The first part has no relevance to the UFA question here at all. Even if people consider over spending old CBA an issue as you do .. The team itself in the process made 11-14 mil in profits of paying Reichel his money deserved or not .. Second Reichel in this case came to Toronto via trade and thus was never a UFA in the first place .. Same is true for Nolan contract or Leetch etc.

I will agree that it might have effected other teams but that is not only the Leafs all teams and arbitration etc also broke the old system. but again you are changing the discussion to things that do not apply here ..

Who said that it had to be those players that need to come just gave and example of a few players .. The new UFA age will fill the market with available players ..and as a result some teams could live off the fruits of other teams development costs and then lure the player to their market ..

Old CBA did not allow it so its an advantage to all teams now.

You can't change where a player was born .. So how do we know how much if $$$ is equal that a Player like Thornton or Nash or Pronger or Foote would not prefer to return to home countries and province ?? We don't at this point.

Nor do we know how other intangibles will play a part in player movement or asking price .. If a player will accept less to play for his team of choice .. I wouldn't be surprised if that played a part and a player would offer his services at a reduction price to one team he likes and if that doesn't work out offer them to others for top dollar .. A good example would be Forsberg, who wants to return to Colorado .. I guarantee that Av's will get the best deal .. If they can't fit him then Forsberg price just went from wholesale to retail for other teams interested ..

We will soon be able to put this to the test and see how much factors not in the CBA will play a part in parity and team composition in the future ....

 

[Sammy*]

How is this bad for the Leafs ??

They have 2 players under contract next year .. Mats Sundin their franchise player and Tucker .. (not counting the kids ,Stajan, Steen, Colaiacovo) .. That is a little over 8 mil in contracts ..

They have no young core players to lose ... You even admitted it yourself and mocked Kaberle for being on the list, but he is the one and only single player that falls under this UFA rules and should Leafs lose him, they can repalce him with the Redden's or Chara's when they go UFA spending etc

So If Leafs just sign their old vets Roberts, Newy, Domi, Leetch to get through next season they would be heading into next UFA with 30 mil + to spend and cap space..

Isn't that a great position .. Leafs old vet team turning over next year is the perfect position to be in from a UFA point of view ..

Then the point of glut of great young UFA players drives salaries down .. Isn't that great for a team Buying so they can afford even more then before ?

Do you not have a clue there Bud? How many times do you have to be schooled to get it. The Leafs now are not 1 of about 5 teams in the bidding war for Redden's or Chara's . They are one of 25 teams. And they cant have 5 of them cause of salary cap issues.
And furthur more you talk about Steen, Colaiacovo as if they can actually play in the NHL. They havnt proven dick & until they do, it would be wise to not be delusional.
But it never ends with you, does it? If you cant figure out that this CBA puts teams on a way more even playing field than before, & money cant buy the Leafs out of incompetent management, coaching & drafting like it could (& to a very minor extent, did before), you are even more clueless on this than you were about the CBA dispute in the 1st place.

 

[Mess]

Realisticly, how many players can you offer the max salary (or somewhere near it) to.

One? For sure, most teams should be able to do this. Maybe every team can afford to have a star player.

1 player @ 7.8 million. 22 players left to divide up 31.2 million (1.418 million each).

Two? Maybe, but teams will have to start filling out the rest of their roster with some min salary players.

2 players @ 15.6 million. 21 players left to divide up 23.4 million (1.114 million each).

Three? Yikes, 60% of your salaries tied up in 3 players. I sure hope they can play a lot. I would suggest any GM who tries this would shortly be checking out the classifieds.

3 players @ 23.4 million. 20 players left to divide up 15.6 million (0.780 million each).

Four? Never. Actually it's impossible. The rest of your team would have an average salary below the league minimum.

4 players @ 31.2 million. 19 players left to divide up 7.8 million (0.411 million each)

Conclusion:

Teams will be able to sign one maybe two max salary players. Three would mean the rest of your team would probably suck, even two is starting to push it. So the Leafs will probably be able to sign one of Nash, Kovalchuk, and Heatley. Two if they want to push it, but then most of the mid-level free agents are probably out of their price range.

Okay now apply same logic to keep together teams .. Take Ottawa .. Alfie , Hossa, Chara to keep are going to cost 5+ mil each to keep .. Now you have your 3 big core players eating up a % of your cap ..

Now what .. Are they in competition when a Thornton hits the market ..

If small market teams are luck to keep Iginla and it cost them their 20% player cost .. Are they in the Thornton sweepstakes ?.

What about UFA desire to play for the Cup ?? Wouldn't that eliminate some teams for the process .. Would a player take less to join a contender .. Kariya did he thought ..

If Pronger leaves St. Louis and is looking for a cup and money is not object as he has been paid 10 mil a year under the old CBA .. What is his asking price to a team .. If its a contender he be a discount if is samll market if might be max $$$ ..

So I don't think its going to be as straight forward as you make it out to be using math, which under those conditions your point stands .. but these are players not governed by math in real life and we don't know what will happen until it unfolds..

 

[NewGuy]

Okay now apply same logic to keep together teams .. Take Ottawa .. Alfie , Hossa, Chara to keep are going to cost 5+ mil each to keep .. Now you have your 3 big core players eating up a % of your cap ..

Now what .. Are they in competition when a Thornton hits the market ..

No but Boston is and so are any number of teams that do not have big salary players to worry about. Maybe Thornton goes to Toronto for the max salary, but then how likely is it that another big free agent does? Certainly lower than it was before Thornton signed. If Toronto adds another max salary player then filling out the roster with quality players becomes a concern. Is another top free agent going to want to come in for say $4 mil/year. Doubtful, all of the sudden half the cap would be tied up in 3 players. The more likely scenario is that third guy goes somewhere else for max salary.

If small market teams are luck to keep Iginla and it cost them their 20% player cost .. Are they in the Thornton sweepstakes ?.

What about UFA desire to play for the Cup ?? Wouldn't that eliminate some teams for the process .. Would a player take less to join a contender .. Kariya did he thought ..

If Pronger leaves St. Louis and is looking for a cup and money is not object as he has been paid 10 mil a year under the old CBA .. What is his asking price to a team .. If its a contender he be a discount if is samll market if might be max $$$ ..

So guys are going to take big paycuts to play on a contender (which of course would be a team like to Toronto), as opposed to taking max salary somewhere else and being big dog on that team. Time will tell, but I think it's unlikely that the cream of the free agent crop will all wind up on the same team playing for small money.

So I don't think its going to be as straight forward as you make it out to be using math, which under those conditions your point stands .. but these are players not governed by math in real life and we don't know what will happen until it unfolds..

Maybe the players aren't governed by math (although that seems unlikely), but the GMs are. The more max/high salary players you add the less there is for the rest of the team and the better salesman the GM needs to be.

 

[AH]

Okay now apply same logic to keep together teams .. Take Ottawa .. Alfie , Hossa, Chara to keep are going to cost 5+ mil each to keep .. Now you have your 3 big core players eating up a % of your cap ..

Now what .. Are they in competition when a Thornton hits the market ..

If small market teams are luck to keep Iginla and it cost them their 20% player cost .. Are they in the Thornton sweepstakes ?.

What about UFA desire to play for the Cup ?? Wouldn't that eliminate some teams for the process ..

Sure it would take Ottawa, Calgary, etc out of the market for Joe. But when you sign Thornton to a 4 year $28 million deal, it will also take Toronto out of the market when Heatley, Kovalchuk, etc hit the open market. It works both ways.

Would a player take less to join a contender .. Kariya did he thought ..

If Pronger leaves St. Louis and is looking for a cup and money is not object as he has been paid 10 mil a year under the old CBA .. What is his asking price to a team .. If its a contender he be a discount if is samll market if might be max $$$ ..

So I don't think its going to be as straight forward as you make it out to be using math, which under those conditions your point stands .. but these are players not governed by math in real life and we don't know what will happen until it unfolds..

You're deluding yourself if you think players will take less $$ simply to go play for a contender. Sure, maybe 10% less to go to a place where they have a hope to win. But you're kidding yourself if you think they will leave tens of millions of $$ on the table to go play for a winner. With the leveled playing field, there will be more than a handful of teams that will enter a season as a legit contender. So as to what constitutes a contender is really up in the air and will be a year by year assessment.

 

[cyrisweb]

It all comes down to 2 things.. good drafting, and having a good reputation(being a place where a player wants to play)

if players don't like the city they will sign for the same money somewhere else. or if they really do like the city they will sign for less to stay there and fit under the cap.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

cyrisweb, EXACTLY.

The thing to remember about the Ottawa Senators (since the beginning of this thread was all about doom and gloom for that franchise) is that the MAIN reason they were successful in the old system was because of their outstanding drafting and development record. Some would argue it was the ONLY reason for success under the old system.

Now, they will have cap concerns next off-season but will also have the likes of Meszaros, Kaigorodov, Bochenski and Eaves ready to step in. The key for the Sens will be to continue producing talent through the draft.

If that aspect dries up, don't blame the new CBA...blame Muckler and the management team.

 

[mmmBeer]

I hate to state the obvious, but...

The 80s Oilers didn't exactly stay together forever, and they even won a cup without Gretzky.

Sorry, I meant the Oilers as an example of a ridiculously talented team, not one that stayed together forever.

 

[futurcorerock]

Not accurate. Teams plan for free agents. In basketball, teams set it up to have a bunch of contracts expire in a certain year so they'll have a lot of capspace. A big market team will prepare for a big free agent and make cap space available. Also in the NBA, the old team gets to offer a larger contract with more years so if a UFA jumps he'll lose some money. The NHL doesn't offer any of those perks.

Duh?

i'm not sure what you're elaborating on with my post.

 

[Mess]

Now I figured out why Crosby and Ovechkin all of a sudden don't think Entry level contract system is so bad in conjunction with the liberalized UFA ages ..

They will go .. ELS

$ 850K Year 1
$ 850k Year 2
$ 850k Year 3

Owner screws over player years

followed by ...20% player max

$ 7.5 mil Year 4
$ 7.5 mil Year 5
$ 7.5 mil Year 6

Player pays back owner ..

Farewell tour in year 7 for last year of service requirement

UFA .. Year 8

Say goodbye if anything less then that .. Since we know some teams that would pay it ..


............... .... Man are you guys gullible ..!!!!........................

 

[GSC2k2*]

Now I figured out why Crosby and Ovechkin all of a sudden don't think Entry level contract system is so bad in conjunction with the liberalized UFA ages ..

They will go .. ELS

$ 850K Year 1
$ 850k Year 2
$ 850k Year 3

Owner screws over player years

followed by ...20% player max

$ 7.5 mil Year 4
$ 7.5 mil Year 5
$ 7.5 mil Year 6

Player pays back owner ..

Farewell tour in year 7 for last year of service requirement

UFA .. Year 8

Say goodbye if anything less then that .. Since we know some teams that would pay it ..

That is a rather large assumption for years 4 to 6. Those years are governed by QO's and subsequently arbitration. It would be a pretty big stretch to assume those two will get a max contract unless they have earned it by being top ten scorers.

 

[Sammy*]

Now I figured out why Crosby and Ovechkin all of a sudden don't think Entry level contract system is so bad in conjunction with the liberalized UFA ages ..

They will go .. ELS

$ 850K Year 1
$ 850k Year 2
$ 850k Year 3

Owner screws over player years

followed by ...20% player max

$ 7.5 mil Year 4
$ 7.5 mil Year 5
$ 7.5 mil Year 6

Player pays back owner ..

Farewell tour in year 7 for last year of service requirement

UFA .. Year 8

Say goodbye if anything less then that .. Since we know some teams that would pay it ..

Yeah ok. This must be another reasom why the new CBA is great for the Leafs. Cause they get both Ovechkin & Crosby when they become f/a's. I just cant figure out how there will be enough icetime for those two guys and Welwood.

 

[Cawz]

Logic? This from a guy is displays a dizzying lack of such when discussing anything, especially hockey.

Why is it that the same people that were saying the PA was going to take down the NHL, now still dwell in fantasy?

They were on here for the last year saying that Goodenow is a genius and the players resolve will never, um, dissolve... and now the same posters are here demostrating their utter lack of common sence. Boggles the mind, it does.

All the doom n gloom sayers should take a deep breath, realize that this is the way the NHL is now and either deal with it or not bother following. The system has been vastly improved. Not perfect (since theres no such thing), but improved.

 

[rwilson99]

Yeah ok. This must be another reasom why the new CBA is great for the Leafs. Cause they get both Ovechkin & Crosby when they become f/a's. I just cant figure out how there will be enough icetime for those two guys and Welwood.

The Leafs should be amazing with 5 guys getting the MAX... they wont even need a goalie or shift changes with Ovechin, Crosby, Kovalchuk, Kessel and Iginla playing for them.

(they may be a bit short on D, but who cares when you score 10 goals a game.)

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Everyone whined and cried about the cap in the NFL and how it would kill dynasties and keep teams mediocre.

Last time I checked NE has won 3 of 4 SBs and the Eagles have gone to the last 4 championship games.

It is all about drafting and managing the cap.

Some teams will do poorly and some teams will master the system.

The sky isn't falling like some posters will have you believe.

 

[Cawz]

Still waiting for a reply to that question scaredsensfan. That seems to be the basis of your whole argument, that teams can't build to have a number of years of success. What is your definition of 5 years 'at or near the top'?

Though I'm guessing you'll just live up to your name and stay scared

He tends to hide when he gets schooled in a discussion. Which is too bad cause he's entertaining.

Theres going to be a lot of doomsayers that totally forget their prophicies once their team starts winning.

 

[Resolute]

The first part has no relevance to the UFA question here at all. Even if people consider over spending old CBA an issue as you do .. The team itself in the process made 11-14 mil in profits of paying Reichel his money deserved or not .. Second Reichel in this case came to Toronto via trade and thus was never a UFA in the first place .. Same is true for Nolan contract or Leetch etc.

I will agree that it might have effected other teams but that is not only the Leafs all teams and arbitration etc also broke the old system. but again you are changing the discussion to things that do not apply here ..

Who said that it had to be those players that need to come just gave and example of a few players .. The new UFA age will fill the market with available players ..and as a result some teams could live off the fruits of other teams development costs and then lure the player to their market ..

Old CBA did not allow it so its an advantage to all teams now.

You can't change where a player was born .. So how do we know how much if $$$ is equal that a Player like Thornton or Nash or Pronger or Foote would not prefer to return to home countries and province ?? We don't at this point.

Nor do we know how other intangibles will play a part in player movement or asking price .. If a player will accept less to play for his team of choice .. I wouldn't be surprised if that played a part and a player would offer his services at a reduction price to one team he likes and if that doesn't work out offer them to others for top dollar .. A good example would be Forsberg, who wants to return to Colorado .. I guarantee that Av's will get the best deal .. If they can't fit him then Forsberg price just went from wholesale to retail for other teams interested ..

We will soon be able to put this to the test and see how much factors not in the CBA will play a part in parity and team composition in the future ....

No, the first part did not have any relevence to the larger topic at hand. I did, however, find it both curious and hilarious that you attempted to make it seem like the Leafs were a victim of the last CBA becuase they made a consious decision to build a team of over-the-hill players rather than develop their own team, and the cost reflected that choice.

The rest of your rebuttal is merely speculation. Especially the part about Forsberg taking much less to stay in Colorado. It may happen, it may not, though I believe you are probably right that he would give Denver a discount.

However, this doesnt really mean Toronto has an advantage. While you might argue that a player would choose Toronto at a discount because they are from the Toronto area, I could just as easily argue that that same player might choose Calgary for a similar discount.

Afterall, Calgary offers a quality of life every bit as high as Toronto, but the cost of living is much lower, taxes are at worst equivalent (and both Ontario and Alberta are as good as, or better than many American States), so a players salary would go farther in Alberta. Also, while the Leafs haven't been to a finals in nearly four decades, the Flames came within a goal in the last season, so a player may decide that Calgary is a better destination than Toronto if he wants to win.

Purely speculative, of course, but there is no reason to assume that Toronto or any other large market would automatically become the destination that all great players eventually want to play for.

 

[Kritter471]

Everyone whined and cried about the cap in the NFL and how it would kill dynasties and keep teams mediocre.

Last time I checked NE has won 3 of 4 SBs and the Eagles have gone to the last 4 championship games.

It is all about drafting and managing the cap.

Some teams will do poorly and some teams will master the system.

The sky isn't falling like some posters will have you believe.

It's a little more complicated than that.

It's about having a good, young (read: affordable) team and getting hot at the right time. And, what I hate about it, is there's a huge amount of player turnover. I'd guess 40 percent of a roster turns over each year.

That's fine for fans in football, as it means losing 3-4 starters at most (or 20ish percent) on a hockey team, losing 40 percent on average is 8 new players on the ice each year. That's a lot.

Finally, the NFL teams don't have to live with their high-salary mistakes, as they have non-guaranteed contracts. Therefore, they can go out and sign a quarterback to $40 million over three years with a $2 million signing bonus, a salary that should seriously impair their team in terms of other signings. But if he's a bust, they can just cut him and not have to deal with it. Hockey teams won't have that luxury, and every team will run into that problem.

 

[Kritter471]

Afterall, Calgary offers a quality of life every bit as high as Toronto, but the cost of living is much lower, taxes are at worst equivalent (and both Ontario and Alberta are as good as, or better than many American States), so a players salary would go farther in Alberta. Also, while the Leafs haven't been to a finals in nearly four decades, the Flames came within a goal in the last season, so a player may decide that Calgary is a better destination than Toronto if he wants to win.

Purely speculative, of course, but there is no reason to assume that Toronto or any other large market would automatically become the destination that all great players eventually want to play for.

I will say this - if quality of life comes into play (which is will, when teams are forced to offer basically the same contract offers), then you'll see a lot of guys heading to the Southern United States (LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Dallas, Phoenix, Florida, Tamba Bay, Carolina, Atlanta).

Hockey season is in winter. Winters in those cities are mild, moderate at worst. Guys can golf most of the season and generally get out of there before it really starts baking (July and August in Dallas/Atlanta/Florida/Carolina/TB, May-September in Phoenix, never in costal California). Many of those states also have no income tax and a reputation for being very much like Canada when it comes to hospitality and friendliness of the population.

So just like guys will stay home, I think a lot will want to go where it's nice during the season.

(I'm not just saying that - guys who have been down with the Southern teams bring that up a lot. And it won't help Dallas this year anyways. Beyond re-signing their own guys, they're probably going to get low-end UFAs to round out 3rd pair D and fourth line wing positions).

 

[Resolute]

Or, they may want to go to the smaller northern centres where the people live and die by hockey. Not to mention that getting paid in US dollars, and paying your bills in Canadian dollars is a huge bonus.

Point is, there is no natural advantage that any one market posesses that gives them the inside track on all of the stars.

 

[Kritter471]

Or, they may want to go to the smaller northern centres where the people live and die by hockey. Not to mention that getting paid in US dollars, and paying your bills in Canadian dollars is a huge bonus.

Point is, there is no natural advantage that anyone market posesses that gives them the inside track on all of the stars.

Yep. I agree. Everyone here was just talking Canadian city vs. other Canadian city, while I was merely trying to point out that there are advantages to every city, including ones everyone shrugs off (like Florida and Carolina), be it "hard-core fans," tax breaks, Canadian dollar benefits or weather patterns.

 

[Gary]

Joe Thornton is an Ontario boy not a Mass. How much will that influence decisions no ones knows as of yet ...

In the past, most of the elite players who take less $$$ to play for a team seem to be for 1 of 2 different reasons. 1) The player feels that he has a REAL good chance at a stanley cup 2) To finish their careers there (even if the team is'nt a contender). Roberts/Newy/Nolan all talk about how great the Leafs are-But they still wanted damn good coin. To insinuate they'd play for peanuts just to be in a Leafs uniform and to help the team get under a cap seems somewhere inbetween extremely unlikely, and nearly impossible. Sure Kariya and Selanne took big cuts to play for Anaheim because they liked the environment but when they're washed up. I venture to say there will be hockey in hell before guys like Heatley/Thornton/etc. play for 1/2 of what they could at a early age just to be in a city they like more. Atleast not when they're 27-28 years old. Maybe you'll get to see a 38 and 37 year old Heatley and Thornton on your team though. Look at all the oldies on T.O. and tell me honestly that you don't think I'm right.