Olympics: Slovakia Roster Discussion (Roster in post 1)

[Wo Yorfat]

They'll medal.

 

[RobbieJMosher]

Honestly didnt even know Ladislav Nagy still played. Was one of my favourite mooseheads.......20 years ago.

 

[tobu]

He is still pretty solid. 9th in points and 3rd in goals scored in the Slovak domestic league.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Being 9th in points in Slovak league is solid compared to what? A beer leaguer? Don't mean to be rude but the fact Nagy is on this team just shows in what a hard spot Slovak hockey is currently.

 

[tobu]

Yes, playing in the Slovak league is no NHL or KHL, but it's still a professional league that's taken seriously. It's neither pond hockey nor a beer league. For many European NHL veterans, playing on the big ice back home is a good way to continue playing solid hockey, close to their family and friends, where one does not need to skate with a high pace and be rammed against the boards as on the small ice, but instead can play it more technically. He's not going to be a first liner on the Slovak team, but brings experience to the team, which is a rare commodity at this tournament.

Slovak hockey is on crossroads, we need to accept that we can't rely on NHL stars anymore, because frankly we don't really have any anymore, and icing Europe based players is something we need re-learn and we need to make the most out of it. We managed to do it 24 years ago in Lillehamer by winning the group stage lossless with a team built mainly on domestic players at that time, with the exception of 3.

 

[Jakk123]

Yes, playing in the Slovak league is no NHL or KHL, but it's still a professional league that's taken seriously. It's neither pond hockey nor a beer league. For many European NHL veterans, playing on the big ice back home is a good way to continue playing solid hockey, close to their family and friends, where one does not need to skate with a high pace and be rammed against the boards as on the small ice, but instead can play it more technically. He's not going to be a first liner on the Slovak team, but brings experience to the team, which is a rare commodity at this tournament.

Slovak hockey is on crossroads, we need to accept that we can't rely on NHL stars anymore, because frankly we don't really have any anymore, and icing Europe based players is something we need re-learn and we need to make the most out of it. We managed to do it 24 years ago in Lillehamer by winning the group stage lossless with a team built mainly on domestic players at that time, with the exception of 3.

Taken seriously by whom? I don't want to bash our league, but I think it has simply lost its credit. The quality simply is not there. I hope Slovan returns back from the KHL and we can somehow make the league better gradually. I see no point in Slovan being in the KHL anymore, there's no money, no good players, no anything. There are barely 2 or 3 Slovak players who are even worth mentioning.

I would say we need to accept that we can't produce enough good players and do something about that. We have almost no top tier players in both Europe and NHL. Anyway, let's hope we can at least make the quarterfinals with this roster.

 

[tobu]

Taken seriously by whom? I don't want to bash our league, but I think it has simply lost its credit. The quality simply is not there. I hope Slovan returns back from the KHL and we can somehow make the league better gradually. I see no point in Slovan being in the KHL anymore, there's no money, no good players, no anything. There are barely 2 or 3 Slovak players who are even worth mentioning.

I would say we need to accept that we can't produce enough good players and do something about that. We have almost no top tier players in both Europe and NHL. Anyway, let's hope we can at least make the quarterfinals with this roster.

By everyone that participates and follows the league of course. I never said it has or ever had some credit, it's definitely a 2nd tier league in Europe and always has been, but it's still a professional league by all counts. The top 2-3 teams however on their good day can play an equal game and beat their Czech, German or Swiss competition. The Slovak league just lacks depth as everything Slovak hockey in general.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Loads of wishful thinking there. Slovak league has no teams that would make the playoffs in EBEL, which is a 3rd tier league itself. It doesn't lack depth, it lacks everything. You could say they lack depth if the top team were really good but they aren't. Calling it 2nd tier league is just being out of touch with reality. Unless you call Belarus' Extraliga, EIHL and all the garbage leagues like that 2nd tier since their teams have had some success against Swiss, Finns, etc.

 

[Faterson]

I hope Slovan stays in the KHL precisely because the Slovak league is a third-rate league. Better to be dead-last in the KHL (and Slovan is fourth-last this season) than to play in the Slovak league.

The Slovak league is a league that never should have existed. It's purely a product of politics and of early 1990s misguided nationalism and the breakup of Czechoslovakia. The Czechoslovak league had prestige, but this one has never had it. Despite being a lifelong Slovan fan, I could never get excited about Slovan winning the Slovak championship. So what?!

Even if it was necessary to split the country of Czechoslovakia (debatable), and it definitely was necessary to split the national teams, the league itself should never have been split. That was a tragic mistake on the part of Slovak nationalists, and we've been paying for it ever since.

 

[tobu]

Loads of wishful thinking there. Slovak league has no teams that would make the playoffs in EBEL, which is a 3rd tier league itself. It doesn't lack depth, it lacks everything. You could say they lack depth if the top team were really good but they aren't. Calling it 2nd tier league is just being out of touch with reality. Unless you call Belarus' Extraliga, EIHL and all the garbage leagues like that 2nd tier since their teams have had some success against Swiss, Finns, etc.

Slovak league is undeniably a level below the Swiss or the Czech league, which are a level below the Swedish and Finish leagues, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that the top Slovak teams would not make EBEL playoffs. That's wishful thinking on your part. There weren't that many head to head competitive matches between Slovak teams and EBEL teams, but I remember two in CHL, with Kosice playing Linz with a win and a loss and Banska Bystrica playing Salzburg with a win and a loss as well.

 

[tobu]

I hope Slovan stays in the KHL precisely because the Slovak league is a third-rate league. Better to be dead-last in the KHL (and Slovan is fourth-last this season) than to play in the Slovak league.

The Slovak league is a league that never should have existed. It's purely a product of politics and of early 1990s misguided nationalism and the breakup of Czechoslovakia. The Czechoslovak league had prestige, but this one has never had it. Despite being a lifelong Slovan fan, I could never get excited about Slovan winning the Slovak championship. So what?!

Even if it was necessary to split the country of Czechoslovakia (debatable), and it definitely was necessary to split the national teams, the league itself should never have been split. That was a tragic mistake on the part of Slovak nationalists, and we've been paying for it ever since.

On Slovan being dead last in KHL rather than playing in the Slovak league, I shared this opinion for some time, but I no longer do. Slovan players have adopted the loser's mentality and I as a fan have completely lost interest over the past four seasons. I enjoyed Slovan in NHL the first season, the players still believed they could win and you could see it on the ice, but I did not attend a single game this year, because I can't care anymore for the team. All Slovak players playing for Slovan just regress, just look how many national team players Slovan produces....

 

[Faterson]

But that can still change for the better in seasons to come. As you know, Slovan have a new GM this season, and I don't think you can write off a GM after the first unsuccessful season. He should be given 2 or 3 seasons to attempt a turnaround, in terms of the players' winning rather than losing mentality, in terms of the team paying its players on time, etc. If Slovan leaves the KHL, you are guaranteed that there'll be no improvement. If we stay, improvement is still possible in future, although it's difficult to see many encouraging signs at the moment.

 

[Jakk123]

But that can still change for the better in seasons to come. As you know, Slovan have a new GM this season, and I don't think you can write off a GM after the first unsuccessful season. He should be given 2 or 3 seasons to attempt a turnaround, in terms of the players' winning rather than losing mentality, in terms of the team paying its players on time, etc. If Slovan leaves the KHL, you are guaranteed that there'll be no improvement. If we stay, improvement is still possible in future, although it's difficult to see many encouraging signs at the moment.

Any kind of reasoning behind that? Slovan promised to be the backbone of our NT, this has obviously failed. Every season is a struggle to get the necessary money. I don't know how does this benefit anyone. Well, maybe the KHL, they still get a team with a pretty good stadium and attendance.

Loads of wishful thinking there. Slovak league has no teams that would make the playoffs in EBEL, which is a 3rd tier league itself. It doesn't lack depth, it lacks everything. You could say they lack depth if the top team were really good but they aren't. Calling it 2nd tier league is just being out of touch with reality. Unless you call Belarus' Extraliga, EIHL and all the garbage leagues like that 2nd tier since their teams have had some success against Swiss, Finns, etc.

Based on what? I'm the last person on Earth who would think of our league as underrated, but I strongly disagree with this.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Based on what? I'm the last person on Earth who would think of our league as underrated, but I strongly disagree with this.

I've discussed this with someone just a month ago or so. Most imports on Slovak teams are former ECHL players that didn't come close to playing a regular shift in the AHL. EBEL imports are mostly formed solid AHL players or ECHL stars. Judd Blackwater, who is really as good as Slovak league players get, failed to keep a job in EBEL. Twice.

Based on what could you say any Slovak team would actually get to the EBEL playoffs? They would all start playing above their level all of the sudden?

Well this is the post I've written on very similar topic few months ago:

<...>

The cold hard facts are that EBEL is full of guys with NHL, AHL, SHL, Liiga, DEL experience, guys like Poulin, Koskiranta, Starkbaum, Locke, Schremp, Holzapfel, Nodl, Raffl.. And overall, I think anyone will agree, the average EBEL import is either a guy who wasn't quite good enough for the veteran spot in the AHL or absolutely top-end ECHL guy.

How many players like that are there in the Slovak league? The leading scorer played in Mestis 2 years ago now he's at 1,5 PPG in your league. Judd Blackwater moved to Slovakia because he couldn't cut it in the EBEL. Twice. And now he has gold and silver medals medals because he is, evidently, a first line player on one of the best teams in the league. And this isn't cherry picking, Slovak league basically has no names familiar to European hockey fan other than 35+ guys like Radivojevic, Hossa, Nagy, etc. Once you get at least somewhat good you move to the Czech league. That's what Slovak league is all about. And if there is a decent player in his prime years in the Slovak league he's the one who didn't quite make it in the Czech one.

And I'm not even comparing the overall depth of the leagues. Bolzano, looking at the standings the worst EBEL team this season, are lead by Halmo, Angelidis, Oleksuk - guys whom most considered very solid AHL players. They also just fired Sedlacek who was KHL starting goalie for two seasons (albeit for Riga but still) meanwhile bottom teams on the Slovak league are all guys who shouldn't be playing professional hockey at all (to their credit, hockey probably isn't their full time job).

So yes, my wet dreams.

 

[kudla]

"And I'm not even comparing the overall depth of the leagues. Bolzano, looking at the standings the worst EBEL team this season, are lead by Halmo, Angelidis, Oleksuk - guys whom most considered very solid AHL players. They also just fired Sedlacek who was KHL starting goalie for two seasons (albeit for Riga but still) meanwhile bottom teams on the Slovak league are all guys who shouldn't be playing professional hockey at all (to their credit, hockey probably isn't their full time job)."

Now this is a complete bull****. I am not saying that slovak league is good, but comparing it to semi-professional league is like comparing it to czech 3rd league. Don't comment on anything you obviously have no idea about.

 

[tobu]

@soundandfurry You cherry-picking an individual or individuals that didn't make it in EBEL and made it in Slovak league and making an assumption and a judgement based off of that. By the same approach, I could say NHL is inferior to European leagues, because Chara never made it in Europe and was told he'd never succeed. Of course that's just straight out wrong to use an individual's success for league judgement. There are plenty of examples of players moving from one league to another all across the hockey world and flourishing after changing the league and the teams. You're totally discounting the possibility that a player just flourishes at different style of hockey and with different line-mates. I say look at the head-to-head matches in CHL between EBEL and Slovak teams, where there was no particular difference between the two and from the 4 games the score is tied at 2 wins and 2 losses.

 

[tobu]

This (in slovak only) is 4 year old interview with Martin Krainz who was(is?) in Graz 99ers management. I'm quoting and loosely translating one Q&A:

Do EBEL clubs know anything about the Slovak league? Is there scouting, do your people travel to watch the games?
"An overall overview is lacking. Another thing is, that a canadian coach talks differently with a canadian management than with a Slovak one. This is a fact. For your agents, it's difficult to place relatively unknown players in EBEL. But when we play pre-season games against your teams, we see how good the players are, each and every one of them could play in EBEL".

Overall he mentions that the two main reasons why there are so few Slovaks in EBEL is that EBEL management/scouting have absolutely no knowledge of the Slovak players (no scouting at all), and the second reason is that there are lot of Canadian staff in EBEL that are more knowledgeable of Canadian players and prefer them just for the sake of knowing them and speaking the language, which Slovak players rarely do.

 

[kabidjan18]

CHL results should obviously be taken with cups of salt.

Martin Krainz isn't a source I would use for anything, for many reasons. Bernd Freimuller is someone I trust much more, and he wrote a piece on this.

Die slowakische Liga: Ein Freimüller-Reisebericht

Seems consistent with what I've heard in terms of word of mouth about the league as well. The EBEL has much better parity, but I'm sure the top 5 Slovakian clubs would be good EBEL clubs as well.

 

[Faterson]

Die slowakische Liga: Ein Freimüller-Reisebericht

LMAO at his descriptions of the dilapidated stadium in Liptovský Mikuláš. (You really can't call a barn like that "arena".) It's indeed American nonsense to play the national anthem prior to league games. This is just Europeans stupidly parroting Americans. Anthems have a place at international tournaments like the Olympics, but not in domestic leagues, even multi-national leagues, because, after all, it's not national teams who are playing the games.

I get it: Americans and Canadians are sabotaging international hockey, so if anthems were only reasonably played at international games, they'd get next to no opportunity to hear their anthem being played at hockey games, but that is their choice.

 

[tobu]

CHL results should obviously be taken with cups of salt.

Martin Krainz isn't a source I would use for anything, for many reasons. Bernd Freimuller is someone I trust much more, and he wrote a piece on this.

Die slowakische Liga: Ein Freimüller-Reisebericht

Seems consistent with what I've heard in terms of word of mouth about the league as well. The EBEL has much better parity, but I'm sure the top 5 Slovakian clubs would be good EBEL clubs as well.

Yep, and quoting Bernd with a loose English translation "The better teams in the league are sure to have a good EBEL level, as proven by the CHL defeats by RB Salzburg, Black Wings Linz and KAC against Kosice and Banska Bystrica in recent years." He lists 5 teams from the league to have a good EBEL level. So I guess that's enough of the discussion on whether Slovak league is a semi-pro beer league in comparison to EBEL.

 

[Faterson]

Well, but the same article suggests that a team like Detva, promoted to the top league just because a team from the top league went bankrupt, is very much on a "semi-pro beer league" level.

No matter how much Slovan may be struggling in the KHL, returning to a league where teams like Detva are playing, would be the ultimate failure and disgrace. Give me Nizhnekamsk, Vladivostok, Riga or Kunlun Red Stars over Detva anytime.

 

[tobu]

Because a team from top league goes bankrupt and is replaced by the next best team a league below doesn't automatically make that team semi-pro beer league level. Yes, while it's not on par player-quality wise, it still needs to meet the criteria required for professional league participation.

Oh and if Slovan would return to Slovak league, it would logically within a year push out a team like Detva and you'd be left with the standard Slovak hockey cities.

 

[Faterson]

Well, I'm convinced top-tier leagues should be multi-national, not national. The NHL and KHL, and even EBEL, got that one right. Whatever Slovan does, I hope it never returns to a Slovakia-only league. That's just too provincial and, as I said, an artificial product of early 1990s nationalistic politics. Nothing to do with sports and a natural development. A Slovakia-only league should be regional and second-tier (as it used to be in Czechoslovakia), definitely not first-tier.

 

[tobu]

I would not mind the a Czech-Slovak league, but we know who is against it. In the meantime, if Slovan doesn't survive the KHL, I don't mind if its EBEL or the Slovak league. Honestly, I think the best case scenario would be Slovan in EBEL with Hc Bratislava promoting to the top Slovak league as a farm team of Slovan.

 

[vorky]

Because a team from top league goes bankrupt and is replaced by the next best team a league below doesn't automatically make that team semi-pro beer league level. Yes, while it's not on par player-quality wise, it still needs to meet the criteria required for professional league participation.

Oh and if Slovan would return to Slovak league, it would logically within a year push out a team like Detva and you'd be left with the standard Slovak hockey cities.

Just curious? How would Slovan benefit from coming back to the Slovak league? One would say that attendance would drop significantly, players would leave for better leagues etc. If officials want to help the Slovak hockey, they should consider Slovan "B" team to the Slovak league. Slovan´s (A) comeback to the Slovak league would not help to anybody. Even the EBEL would be better option for Slovan.