Slavin vs Provorov

[HyPnOtiK]

He's nothing like those guys plsying d.

Not close to McDonaugh, not far off Werenski, who plays similar minutes.. better than Rielly and Shattenkirk imo defensively, at the very worst even.

 

[zeke]

Lolwut?

Don't add to the false narrative by agreeing with this junk. Ghost is Much more than a "PP specialist " he's 5th in the league in ESP/per game and he's playing 22 minutes a game, more than guys like Rielly and Shattenkirk, similar to McDonaugh and Werenski, the "sheltered " argument doesn't work either anymore

Provorov is getting elite quality of competition, legit top pair stuff. As is MacDonald. Both are handling the competition pretty well.

Hagg has been getting very tough but not quite as tough matchups as well, and struggling a bit in those matchups, though that's not surprising from a rook.

Gost and Manning have both been getting similar borderline top-4 type matchups, and neither is faring very well in those softer matchups.

the rest of the guys Sanheim/Gudas/Alt have all been getting completely sheltered bottom pair matchups, but to their credit have handled those matchups well.

The biggest problem on the Flyers' dcorps this year so far is that Hagg/Gost/Manning haven't been able to handle the 2nd pairing duty very well.

 

[Sasso09]

Provorov is getting elite quality of competition, legit top pair stuff. As is MacDonald. Both are handling the competition pretty well.

Hagg has been getting very tough but not quite as tough matchups as well, and struggling a bit in those matchups, though that's not surprising from a rook.

Gost and Manning have both been getting similar borderline top-4 type matchups, and neither is faring very well in those softer matchups.

the rest of the guys Sanheim/Gudas/Alt have all been getting completely sheltered bottom pair matchups, but to their credit have handled those matchups well.

The biggest problem on the Flyers' dcorps this year so far is that Hagg/Gost/Manning haven't been able to handle the 2nd pairing duty very well.

Stop pretending like you watch. Ghost is doing very well with his minutes, and they're not sheltered minutes. He has the 4th toughest minutes on the team in terms of defense ( not facing the toughest but not sheltered either). +/- is only relevant when you compare it relative to your own team. Ghost is a +3 on a +2 team, he's doing just fine...in fact the only Flyer who sticks out drastically positively or negatively is Couturier at a +14 ( one of if not best defensive forward in the game). Compare that to Rielly whos even on a +9 team... Granted Rielly faces tougher minutes. Rielly is playing poorly with those minutes, albeit tougher. Maybe ghost would struggle with those minutes as well but your statement is factually incorrect, Ghost is doing very well with his minutes.

 

[Hurricane28]

Provorov is getting elite quality of competition, legit top pair stuff. As is MacDonald. Both are handling the competition pretty well.

Hagg has been getting very tough but not quite as tough matchups as well, and struggling a bit in those matchups, though that's not surprising from a rook.

Gost and Manning have both been getting similar borderline top-4 type matchups, and neither is faring very well in those softer matchups.

the rest of the guys Sanheim/Gudas/Alt have all been getting completely sheltered bottom pair matchups, but to their credit have handled those matchups well.

The biggest problem on the Flyers' dcorps this year so far is that Hagg/Gost/Manning haven't been able to handle the 2nd pairing duty very well.

That last part is only semi-true. Until MacDonald went down, Hagg-Ghost were a pretty good second pairing, and Ghost was thriving. Injuries caused a lot of shuffling to the pairs, and Hagg has been shifted to the top pair which he hasn't been suited for.

 

[zeke]

Stop pretending like you watch. Ghost is doing very well with his minutes, and they're not sheltered minutes. He has the 4th toughest minutes on the team in terms of defense ( not facing the toughest but not sheltered either). +/- is only relevant when you compare it relative to your own team. Ghost is a +3 on a +2 team, he's doing just fine...in fact the only Flyer who sticks out drastically positively or negatively is Couturier at a +14 ( one of if not best defensive forward in the game). Compare that to Rielly whos even on a +9 team... Granted Rielly faces tougher minutes. Rielly is playing poorly with those minutes, albeit tougher. Maybe ghost would struggle with those minutes as well but your statement is factually incorrect, Ghost is doing very well with his minutes.

4th toughest minutes, yes, but far closer to 5th (Manning) than 3rd (Hagg).

i.e. borderline top-4 usage.

as for Rielly, he and Provorov get similar elite tough usage, and so far Rielly is doing better in those minutes.

 

[zeke]

That last part is only semi-true. Until MacDonald went down, Hagg-Ghost were a pretty good second pairing, and Ghost was thriving. Injuries caused a lot of shuffling to the pairs, and Hagg has been shifted to the top pair which he hasn't been suited for.

Fair enough. MacDonald going down is pretty huge, despite all the flack he gets. He always plays the elite tough matchups for you guys, and even if he isn't great in that role, it does make it much easier on the rest of the dmen.

 

[Sasso09]

4th toughest minutes, yes, but far closer to 5th (Manning) than 3rd (Hagg).

i.e. borderline top-4 usage.

as for Rielly, he and Provorov get similar elite tough usage, and so far Rielly is doing better in those minutes.

wait.... Rielly is playing similar minutes that Provorov does.... and he's doing better?

-wrong again, like I said Rielly is a -9 essentially on his team average, Provorov -5

- Provorov has better defensive stats down the line, block shots, hits ect.

- Provorov average ice time is 24:36 (2oth in league #1 D minutes, all players) , 3:14 on the top PK line, 1:56 on the second PP.
- Rielly average ice time is 21:07 (74th in the league all players... #3 D minutes), 2:25 on top PP, 1:29 on second PK

-Rielly has nearly half of his points on the PP (7 out of 16)
-Provorov has only 1 PP point out of 8.....

Rielly has scored 9 ES points in easier minutes on a better offensive than Provorov with his 7 ES points lugging around garbage with tougher minutes. Rielly doesn't even have a strong case offensively against Provorov at this point, and defensively I don't even need to present a case, its not close.

 

[zeke]

wait.... Rielly is playing similar minutes that Provorov does.... and he's doing better?

-wrong again, like I said Rielly is a -9 essentially on his team average, Provorov -5

- Provorov has better defensive stats down the line, block shots, hits ect.

- Provorov average ice time is 24:36 (2oth in league #1 D minutes, all players) , 3:14 on the top PK line, 1:56 on the second PP.
- Rielly average ice time is 21:07 (74th in the league all players... #3 D minutes), 2:25 on top PP, 1:29 on second PK

-Rielly has nearly half of his points on the PP (7 out of 16)
-Provorov has only 1 PP point out of 8.....

Rielly has scored 9 ES points in easier minutes on a better offensive than Provorov with his 7 ES points lugging around garbage with tougher minutes. Rielly doesn't even have a strong case offensively against Provorov at this point, and defensively I don't even need to present a case, its not close.

Provo is getting more minutes, true, but they're both getting equally tough quality of competition in terms of their opponents' ice time.

At ES

Rielly: 17:13, 30.00toiqoc, 1.55p60, 53.4cf% (+4.1rel)
Provorov: 19:25, 30.08toiqoc, 0.73p60, 48.3cf% (-2.3rel)

Special Teams

Rielly: PP 2:25, 9.28p60 / SH 1:28
Provorov: PP 1:56, 1.75p60 / SH 3:14


So full credit to Provo for carrying a bigger workload so far this year - at ES and on the PK, but they're both playing equally tough minutes, and so far Mo is signifiantly outperforming Provo both offensively and possession wise.

 

[IPS]

Not exactly sure how Provorov is winning. Slavin is a legit shut-down guy in the mold of Vlasic whereas Provorv is likely topping out as a 2nd-pairing D-man.

 

[stl76]

Provo is getting more minutes, true, but they're both getting equally tough quality of competition in terms of their opponents' ice time.

At ES

Rielly: 17:13, 30.00toiqoc, 1.55p60, 53.4cf% (+4.1rel)
Provorov: 19:25, 30.08toiqoc, 0.73p60, 48.3cf% (-2.3rel)

Special Teams

Rielly: PP 2:25, 9.28p60 / SH 1:28
Provorov: PP 1:56, 1.75p60 / SH 3:14


So full credit to Provo for carrying a bigger workload so far this year - at ES and on the PK, but they're both playing equally tough minutes, and so far Mo is signifiantly outperforming Provo both offensively and possession wise.

The bolded statement is logically incongruous. If players are playing similar QoC, but one is playing significantly more minutes, then by definition it is tougher to play those greater minutes. You can say, in a vacuum, the difficulty of the minutes Reilly and Provorov play are similar...but the argument falls apart when Provorov plays significantly more of those minutes, at least insofar as comparing the 2 players.

It's disingenuous at best to say that a player playing less than one half the SH minutes of another player is playing equally tough minutes.

To put it another way, using the same QoC metric you use in your argument, Provorov would be tougher QoC than Reilly.

Not exactly sure how Provorov is winning. Slavin is a legit shut-down guy in the mold of Vlasic whereas Provorv is likely topping out as a 2nd-pairing D-man.

Provorov is currently a legit top pairing defender by any conceivable measure. "likely topping out as a 2nd-pairing D-man"...

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Not exactly sure how Provorov is winning. Slavin is a legit shut-down guy in the mold of Vlasic whereas Provorv is likely topping out as a 2nd-pairing D-man.

Slap a Leafs jersey on him and you'd call him a top 5 under 25 kinda guy.

 

[Sasso09]

Provo is getting more minutes, true, but they're both getting equally tough quality of competition in terms of their opponents' ice time.

At ES

Rielly: 17:13, 30.00toiqoc, 1.55p60, 53.4cf% (+4.1rel)
Provorov: 19:25, 30.08toiqoc, 0.73p60, 48.3cf% (-2.3rel)

Special Teams

Rielly: PP 2:25, 9.28p60 / SH 1:28
Provorov: PP 1:56, 1.75p60 / SH 3:14


So full credit to Provo for carrying a bigger workload so far this year - at ES and on the PK, but they're both playing equally tough minutes, and so far Mo is signifiantly outperforming Provo both offensively and possession wise.

look. ive been one of the most critical posters on this forum when it comes to Rielly and I'll be the first to admit, I was wrong. I saw him as a #3 career guy. He certainly has the potential to be a quality #1 guy and hes playing at another level this year.. id call him a good #2 at this point right now. Aside from that I already broke down why Rielly isn't significantly, if at all better than Provorov Offensively. in fact I think its pretty logical to say that if Rielly was a Flyer hed had as many or less overall points than Provorov does. Rielly wouldn't have those 7 PPP with the Flyers, he'd be where Provorov is on the second unit, he also wouldn't be getting as many minutes as Provorov or be used on the top PK and every important defensive ZS possible. Using just the numbers you presented its clear Provorov gets tougher minutes.

and again, factually you're incorrect on both counts when stating "Rielly is playing similar minutes and player better in them"

 

[Sasso09]

Not exactly sure how Provorov is winning. Slavin is a legit shut-down guy in the mold of Vlasic whereas Provorv is likely topping out as a 2nd-pairing D-man.

Provorov... at 20 years old... ( most defenseman don't even crack the league until 23-24) who is already a legit shut down 2-way #1 defender is "topping out" as a 2nd pairing d-man? Hilarious.


Provorov is winning this because he's currently better, a shut down defender who provides significantly better offense while being 3 years younger. Slavin wasn't even in the league at his age.

If Provorov was a Leaf Rielly would be on the back burner with these hype threads, much like Nylander was when Marner was god.

 

[zeke]

look. ive been one of the most critical posters on this forum when it comes to Rielly and I'll be the first to admit, I was wrong. I saw him as a #3 career guy. He certainly has the potential to be a quality #1 guy and hes playing at another level this year.. id call him a good #2 at this point right now. Aside from that I already broke down why Rielly isn't significantly, if at all better than Provorov Offensively. in fact I think its pretty logical to say that if Rielly was a Flyer hed had as many or less overall points than Provorov does. Rielly wouldn't have those 7 PPP with the Flyers, he'd be where Provorov is on the second unit, he also wouldn't be getting as many minutes as Provorov or be used on the top PK and every important defensive ZS possible. Using just the numbers you presented its clear Provorov gets tougher minutes.

and again, factually you're incorrect on both counts when stating "Rielly is playing similar minutes and player better in them"

It is factually correct that both Rielly and Provorov are playing similarly tough elite matchup minutes.

Also factually correct that Rielly is performing better than Provo in those minutes.

 

[zeke]

The bolded statement is logically incongruous. If players are playing similar QoC, but one is playing significantly more minutes, then by definition it is tougher to play those greater minutes. You can say, in a vacuum, the difficulty of the minutes Reilly and Provorov play are similar...but the argument falls apart when Provorov plays significantly more of those minutes, at least insofar as comparing the 2 players.

It's disingenuous at best to say that a player playing less than one half the SH minutes of another player is playing equally tough minutes.

To put it another way, using the same QoC metric you use in your argument, Provorov would be tougher QoC than Reilly.

That is fair.

So we could argue that Rielly's significant edge in possession is perhaps a bit misleading thanks to provo getting bigger, but not tougher, minutes. We might even argue that the two cancel each other out, so that the two dmen are performing similarly.

 

[Sasso09]

It is factually correct that both Rielly and Provorov are playing similarly tough elite matchup minutes.

Also factually correct that Rielly is performing better than Provo in those minutes.

no point in arguing, the numbers don't lie. Rielly is getting easier minutes and relying on power play points, and not nearly as good defensively. The end

 

[zeke]

no point in arguing, the numbers don't lie. Rielly is getting easier minutes and relying on power play points, and not nearly as good defensively. The end

The numbers are clear.

They both get elite tough quality of competition.

Rielly has been far more productive at both even strength and on the PP.

And Rielly has been the signficantly better possession player as well.

On the flipside, in Provo's favor is that he's playing more minutes.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Why are people even talking about Rielly I'm so confused.

 

[StoneHands]

Why are people even talking about Rielly I'm so confused.

Because Leafs fans.

 

[Sasso09]

The numbers are clear.

They both get elite tough quality of competition.

Rielly has been far more productive at both even strength and on the PP.

And Rielly has been the signficantly better possession player as well.

On the flipside, in Provo's favor is that he's playing more minutes.

no...... he has not......

 

[zeke]

no...... he has not......

Provo: ES 0.69p60 / PP 1.63p60
Rielly: ES 1.46p60 / PP 8.84p60

It's not really close.

 

[zeke]

Because Leafs fans.

It was not any leaf fan that brought Rielly into this discussion.

 

[Sasso09]

Provo: ES 0.69p60 / PP 1.63p60
Rielly: ES 1.46p60 / PP 8.84p60

It's not really close.

nice use of numbers to skew the facts.

Provorov has 7 ES points in 20 games
Rielly has 9 ES points in 20 games with much easier minutes despite you trying to call them equal

 

[Sasso09]

use those same numbers for Ghost vs Rielly and it'll make Rielly look bad. You won't rely on the stats then will you? nope.

 

[zeke]

use those same numbers for Ghost vs Rielly and it'll make Rielly look bad. You won't rely on the stats then will you? nope.

Provo: ES 0.69p60 / PP 1.63p60
Rielly: ES 1.46p60 / PP 8.84p60
Ghost: ES 1.11p60 / PP 6.80p60