SImple Question for the Pro-owner crowd

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A Good Flying Bird*

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Splatman Phanutier said:
Difference? Well, that would probably be $2 million dollars to drive up large contracts such as Bill Guerin and John LeClair. If each of the large salaries were dropped by 2 million, we would have a totally different picture right now.

How does this affect Calgary? Simple... if the bar wasn't set for superstars at $8 million (or whatever) and $6 million instead, well...

Ah, but if the Wings have an extra six million, for example, do you really think it's going to go to just two players?
No, it's going to be spread fairly evenly among the 20 players on the team, as it is today.
I think people are overstating the economic ripple effect of the $6 million.

There must be a math major in here somewhere who can illustrate this.
 

A Good Flying Bird*

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kremlin said:
Most teams would survive, but the league would be in no better shape than that is was.

Come on. You believe that?
No Better? Not even a little?
With a salary cap that cuts Detroit and the Rangers off at the knees? With a 24 percent rollback?

Not eve a little better.

You must explain why they aren't better, because I don't see it.
 

Haj

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Newsguyone said:
I understand that you guys think the players are a bunch of greedy SOBs lead by a guy you think is stupid, greedy and evil.

I understand that both the owners and the players are bunch of greedy SOBs lead by a guy I think is stupid, greedy, and evil.

If I was a player, of course I wouldnt want a cap. Why should there be limits on what I can earn ? However, the players need to take thier situation with a grain of salt. The simple fact is they get paid much more money than I'll ever make to play a game .

That being said, the owners need a cap to protect themselves from thier own stupidity. Bettman shouldnt have gotten drunk with power and started the shortsighted expansion that has killed the quality of the game, which led to a bad TV deal. With a bad TV deal , most teams rely on gate sales to make revenue. Bettman and the owners have created the situation that the NHL is in today.
 

Phanuthier*

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Tawnos said:
That's not to say they won't... but if they haven't yet... well, logic would dictate one to ask "why haven't they?"

If you're asking me to substantiate my NFL and NBA numbers:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=daretocompare&prov=tsn&type=lgns

The 8 teams are:
Pittsburgh
Nashville
Carolina
Calgary
Florida
Buffalo
Phoenix
Atlanta

On that note, I need to go to sleep... it's 4am here.
Point 1: I thought you needed cold hard facts? Seems like an assumption on your part about revenue sharing.

As for me to substantiate my argument, here's what I could find on a quick google search:
http://www.foursport.ca/Dec2_2004.htm
All along Gary Bettman and the owners have contended that revenue sharing must be married to a salary cap to properly address the league's financial woes. The NFL is the model league for revenue sharing, the bulk of which comes from league broadcasting revenues that are equally spread amongst all 32 teams.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1330/4326407.html
Whether they get is or not is one thing, but it seems as though Bettman is persuing an NFL-type CBA, where one of the keys is revenue sharing.

NFL numbers... which argument are you defending here?

8 teams... Well, Calgary is already at 38.5 million. Carolina? 36. Phenoix? Almost 40 million. Are you so sure about those 8 teams now?
 

Phanuthier*

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nedved93 said:
i have another question though that i think is worth exploring: many fans of small market teams complain that they simply cannot compete with their large market brethren. the argument rests on the notion that more money implies a greater ability to acquire free agent players, thereby ensuring a more competitive on-ice product.
It's not about the UFA's (which i'm assuming your talking about, since your talking about "competing" for free agents) - its the RFA's.

And you dont' expect Tampa's and Calgary's players to demand more money?
 

Phanuthier*

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Newsguyone said:
Ah, but if the Wings have an extra six million, for example, do you really think it's going to go to just two players?
No, it's going to be spread fairly evenly among the 20 players on the team, as it is today.
I think people are overstating the economic ripple effect of the $6 million.

There must be a math major in here somewhere who can illustrate this.
Not 2, but maye 3-4. And yes, I think that's what they'll do. I really don't think it'll be spread out evenly among 20 players - past experiance would show that.
 

nedved93

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Splatman Phanutier said:
It's not about the UFA's (which i'm assuming your talking about, since your talking about "competing" for free agents) - its the RFA's.

And you dont' expect Tampa's and Calgary's players to demand more money?
perhaps you missed this part of my post:

we know that large market teams drive up wage rates in the UFA market, that is indisputable. but i challenge the underlying assertion that the ability of a club to compete and even contend, is determined primarily by how much they spend (of course for clubs like pittsburg and buffalo that is certainly the case). if the goal is to allow ALL clubs to retain their talent, why isn't more emphasis placed on reforming the ELS, arbitration and qualifier systems, the primary drivers of NHL salary inflation?
 

Phanuthier*

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nedved93 said:
perhaps you missed this part of my post:
My apologies. For future reference, would you mind spacing your paragraphs to make them easier to read? When a post takes up almost the entire screen, and the letters are capatalized, it tends to make things hard to read. :)

Now to the challenge... see my posts on setting the bar.
 

Phanuthier*

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MOEBEAGLE said:
Since when did anyone promise you that the playing field should be level and why should it be? Next why then is the playing field not level for all other business ?
Since Gary Bettman said those words to teams like the Flames and Oilers?

Why should it be an level? Well the alternative is a 12-team league. Take your pick. I'm arguing on the premise of a 30 team, competitive NHL. If your arguing about a tier 2 league or a 12 team league, then we're not even on the same page here and this is all for not.

MOEBEAGLE said:
Stop your crying, the playing field will never be level and you all should just deal with the hand you have been delt.
With the hand most deals are delt with, they'll probably should fold.

MOEBEAGLE said:
Next if your team cannot afford to compete, then why are they in the sports and entertainment business in the first place?
Well thats why a few (ie. Cal Nicholas) want out if the CBA isn't fixed in their favour.

MOEBEAGLE said:
I for one hope that all players drafted in the last couple of years force the league to make them total free agents and are free to sign with any team they want. And that will blow any salary cap right out the window. Or lI hope the europeans form a super elite league and drive the NHL and its owners out of the professional hockey business. :banghead: These owners are just plain liers and would support slaverly if they could get it . Further, I do not care what you people think and I am going to say what I want when I want and the way I want. :madfire:
Thats alot of wants. Pure gold.
 

petrobruin

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There must be a big difference

Between both sides because the businessman who own NHL teams are willing to close the doors on a 2.1bill. dollar industry.

These owners are rich for a reason the dont always make great decisions but more often than not they do.

If they just shut the doors on the season this year its for the righht deal.

That deal is for the owners to be able to all make money and ice a competitive team
dont you think.

I think the players leadership miscaculated.THE gravey train that was is no more.

As a Bruin fan i have always known that The Bs were never going to over spend(except Lapointe).And thats a way of life for any business you can only spend up to a budget.I think this will help most teams be more competitive and interesting .


Instead of buying players ala Detroit ,Philly , toronto etc,etc .Teams will have to rely more on building there own team and identify core players ,draft bettter ,and trades will be more fun .

Petr
 

PhillyNucksFan

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nedved93 said:
let's assume that the financials are accurate - would this not be more indicative of a revenue side problem than a cost problem?

i have another question though that i think is worth exploring: many fans of small market teams complain that they simply cannot compete with their large market brethren. the argument rests on the notion that more money implies a greater ability to acquire free agent players, thereby ensuring a more competitive on-ice product. implicit in that argument is a strong, almost definite causal relationship between how much a club spends on player salaries to that club's on-ice performance. in that vein, i wonder if my small-market friends can explain why tampa bay (payroll $34,065,379) beat calgary (payroll $36,402,575), who in turn beat san jose (payroll $34,455,000) to advance to the cup finals? explain why a team that was on the verge on bankruptcy, (ottawa, payroll $39,590,000) is widely considered a model NHL franchise? why is new jersey (payroll $48,931,658) considered by most to rival the new england patriots as being the most well-run professional sports franchise? how has minnesota's wild (payroll $27,200,500) achieved so much success in its brief existence? why is atlanta (payroll $28,547,500) on the verge of entering the "competitive" phase of the team development cycle? what of nashville (payroll $21,932,500)? how were they not only able to qualify for the playoffs but provide such stiff competition to detroit (payroll $77,856,109)? why have the rangers failed to make the playoffs in 7 years? why have toronto, philadelphia, and st.louis been unable to win championships, or even qualify for a cup finals appearance despite their inflated salary structures? and why is it almost an unwritten rule in the NHL that any team can beat any other team on any given night, regardless of their total payroll differential?

we know that large market teams drive up wage rates in the UFA market, that is indisputable. but i challenge the underlying assertion that the ability of a club to compete and even contend, is determined primarily by how much they spend (of course for clubs like pittsburg and buffalo that is certainly the case). if the goal is to allow ALL clubs to retain their talent, why isn't more emphasis placed on reforming the ELS, arbitration and qualifier systems, the primary drivers of NHL salary inflation? if the goal is to allow small-market clubs to compete with the large-market clubs in the UFA market, then why not embrace a system that harshly penalizes those large-market clubs who do spend recklessly by forcing them to have to funnel money directly to their small-market rivals? i don't for the life of me understand by this board doesn't openly embrace a hybrid system, or perhaps even one that places a cap on UFA spending?

Valid points IMO.

Response to your points.

1) IMO, you cannot segregate the revenue and cost as they are closely related. The point of the owners, (which you have touched upon in your 2nd point, is that, because of the increase of the cost of players, the revenue margin decreases, to a point where they can no longer to operate with such margin, which is at loss, according to their financials. It is not necessarily about the Revenue OR the cost; rather, its about the margin, which in terms is related to both revenue and cost as you know.

2) Sure, a very valid challenge to the assertion that owners cant ice a competative product on and/or off the ice as i am personally often puzzled by that, but here is my explaination. Hockey is a team sport and individual talents play less of a factor than to say, the MLB, where you can field a group of 10 superstars and you will probably win the series. (Check the Yankees). But Hockey is different, (check the Rangers). Anybody can beat anybody. Check the 1980 US Olympic team, for example, they are the overwhelming underdog against russian superpower, and you know the story. Sure, all of those teams who have done well, (such as sharks, flames, bolts), but that is for now, and notice most of the major impact players on those teams are entering the last couple of years of their contract and they are young. They are energetic and they are cheap, for now. But the point of the owners is not about the RFA contracts being too high, its about the UFAs, who probably contributed the most greatly to the increase of the average salary in the NHL, where there are still hundreds of players who are making below average of 1.8M or below the 1 million mark.

The teams you mentioned, ATL, SJ, Flames, sure, they are competative at THIS POINT, BUT, if there is no change of CBA scenery, the chances of these impact players staying in Calgary, Atlanta, SJ are very slim as no way these teams can afford to keep all of their big guns. ATL for example, maybe they will force to make a decision to keep either ONE of the Heatley and Ilya.

3) Valid points and i actually agree with them. But, I still believe a cap is the essential and key point in any of the CBA, hard or soft cap. There are quite a few advantages of a cap to the NHL as a whole IMO.
a) Better product development in terms of GMs are actually trying hard to build a team, and rather, buy a team, and this would in term relates to better on ice management and probably off-ice management.
b) increased revenue through concession due to better managed teams icing more competative products with homegrown stars whom the team can actually sign even when he becomes an UFA
c) increased revenue in comm/tv deals due to increased support and ratings
d) because of the cap, (maybe similar to that of the NFL), teams have to release some of their own players who can then sign with other teams to balance the league competitiveness. This achieves nhl parity.



OR, you know what??? No cap? Fine, how about NO MORE GUARANTEED contract like those of the NFL??

I think that would definitely help this situation too!

:yo:
 

Tawnos

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me2 said:
The $49m million slides the entire payscale up. Every team goes up through arbitration and other salary equalisation strategies. Why do you think Goodenow is so keen on a higher cap when he knows the vast majority of the teams aren't likely to spend more than $42.5m anyway?

Its not hard to see through the ruse.



I thought the NHL teams lost hundreds of millions of dollars the last two years... That's your idea of fiscally responsible?

Of course it slides the payscale up... I just don't think it does to the point people are portraying it.

And the NHL did lose money the last two years... but I was specifically talking about the tiny growth in player salary over the last 2 offseasons.
 

ComrieFanatic

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explain to me how the players wouldnt accept it when there is a $6 mill difference. Not one player is going to directly see this amount of money. maybe a few players will make a few more dollars, but not all 700 members of the union will. If the proposal went to vote i bet that it would pass....the players know that they agreed to a cap and that the longer this goes for the lower that cap number will get
 

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Other Dave said:
This season has been an utter disaster for the Senators, but the cancellation is even worse: if hockey ever resumes, the Sens will be in the unenviable position of having to negotiate with both Havlat and Hossa as free agents, while close to the upper limit of a salary cap and shorn of revenues by the labor dispute.

Things couldn't have worked out worse for the Sens if it were deliberate.


Alfreddson only makes about 5 million a season and with a 24% rollback that could be even lower. No Sens player could command more then him and with no season players will have a tough time explaining why they deserve more money then the last year of there contract before the lockout began
 

nedved93

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Response to your points.

1) IMO, you cannot segregate the revenue and cost as they are closely related. The point of the owners, (which you have touched upon in your 2nd point, is that, because of the increase of the cost of players, the revenue margin decreases, to a point where they can no longer to operate with such margin, which is at loss, according to their financials. It is not necessarily about the Revenue OR the cost; rather, its about the margin, which in terms is related to both revenue and cost as you know.

there hasn't been sufficient discussion about revenue growth though. one of bettman's primary failings as commissioner has been his inability to deal effectively with "trap" defenses that stifle the very life of this game, and his inability to successfully develop a marketing campaign that promotes these great athletes. i'm sorry, but i don't know too many casual hockey fans who could sit through a wild-devils match!

2) Sure, a very valid challenge to the assertion that owners cant ice a competative product on and/or off the ice as i am personally often puzzled by that, but here is my explaination. Hockey is a team sport and individual talents play less of a factor than to say, the MLB, where you can field a group of 10 superstars and you will probably win the series. (Check the Yankees). But Hockey is different, (check the Rangers). Anybody can beat anybody. Check the 1980 US Olympic team, for example, they are the overwhelming underdog against russian superpower, and you know the story. Sure, all of those teams who have done well, (such as sharks, flames, bolts), but that is for now, and notice most of the major impact players on those teams are entering the last couple of years of their contract and they are young. They are energetic and they are cheap, for now. But the point of the owners is not about the RFA contracts being too high, its about the UFAs, who probably contributed the most greatly to the increase of the average salary in the NHL, where there are still hundreds of players who are making below average of 1.8M or below the 1 million mark.

The teams you mentioned, ATL, SJ, Flames, sure, they are competative at THIS POINT, BUT, if there is no change of CBA scenery, the chances of these impact players staying in Calgary, Atlanta, SJ are very slim as no way these teams can afford to keep all of their big guns. ATL for example, maybe they will force to make a decision to keep either ONE of the Heatley and Ilya.
so, i am glad you believe as i do that anybody in the NHL can beat anybody - owing to the fact that, as you mentioned, hockey is the ultimate team sport. now, the concern you've expressed about teams being unable to retain their core nucleus is no doubt addressed in part by the RFA system - only in the NHL can clubs retain control of their talent from the time they are drafted to the time they reach UFA-status. this is why i'm such a strong proponent of ELS reforms, two-way/final offer arbitration, and 75% qualifiers as methods to seriously restrain salary inflation. the problem is then reduced to one of the UFA market, and how best to restrain its salary growth. in my judgement, a hybrid tax/cap system appears to be optimal (a "soft" cap if you will).

3) Valid points and i actually agree with them. But, I still believe a cap is the essential and key point in any of the CBA, hard or soft cap. There are quite a few advantages of a cap to the NHL as a whole IMO.
a) Better product development in terms of GMs are actually trying hard to build a team, and rather, buy a team, and this would in term relates to better on ice management and probably off-ice management.
b) increased revenue through concession due to better managed teams icing more competative products with homegrown stars whom the team can actually sign even when he becomes an UFA
c) increased revenue in comm/tv deals due to increased support and ratings
d) because of the cap, (maybe similar to that of the NFL), teams have to release some of their own players who can then sign with other teams to balance the league competitiveness. This achieves nhl parity.
yes, salary restraints will FORCE owners to focus on "product development" - something that i willingly embrace as a long-time suffering rangers fan. points b and c are speculative and subject to many parameters, i'd like to take issue with d though. why would you propose a system that would force teams to release their own players, when you stated above that you were concerned that teams would be unable to retain members of their core nucleus? it would be highly undesirable for teams who spent years patiently developing their talent to have to sell that talent off to ensure that their total payroll doesn't breach the cap. furthermore, i again don't understand this desire to force an artificial parity on a league that already has it simply by virtue of what we discussed above - any team can beat anyone on any given day in the NHL!
 

wazee

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What an interesting thread. Time for me to put in my two cents worth on the original question…

Newsguyone said:
I understand that you guys think the players are a bunch of greedy SOBs lead by a guy you think is stupid, greedy and evil.
I do not think the players are stupid, greedy, or evil. Nor do I think the owners are. I am a fan of the game and I think an NHL with strong, competitive franchises is good for the game.

Newsguyone said:
But seriously. Let's take a look at where we were a year ago and where we are today.

Now assume that the NHL quickly decided to adopt the PA's most recent proposal, in its entirety. (I am not saying the league should adopt it, I am just selecting it for arguments' sake)

Is your favorite team, and the league, much better off than it was a year ago?

Could your franchise not survive? WHy or why not?
Explain how a $49 Mill cap would put your team out of business.
I am an Avs fan. The Avs would have been better off playing this season and they would be better off playing the rest of this year under a 49M cap than not playing at all. A 49M cap would not put my team out of business. That said, in the long run, they will be better off under a 42M cap than a 49M cap.

Newsguyone said:
Finally, logically explain to me why it is worth it for your team to completely cancel the season based on a $6M difference in cap levels.

Please, keep the thread free of sarcasm and insults.
I'd just like to see some thought-out opinions from the other side.

There are so many valid answers to this question. I could start by disputing your assertion that the only thing standing between cancellation and a season was 6M, but that is not what you are looking for.

I could stress that I do not have a dog in this fight. I am a hockey fan. I support the owners only because their plan is closer to what I think needs to happen to strengthen the league. It is not personal with me. But I don’t think that is really what you are asking either.

So I will try to answer your question in a more philosophical manner. I favor a relatively low salary cap because I think leveling the financial playing field is the right thing to do. Not only is it basically fair, but it is good for the NHL and for hockey fans in general. As a fan, I want to see teams rise and fall based on hockey factors…scouting, drafting, management, coaching, trades, chemistry, etc.

I watch sports for the competition. No hockey fan would find it acceptable for the NHL to adopt a system that forced the officials to call fewer penalties on the large market teams. That would offend even the biggest homer of the biggest big market team. Why? Because sports fans are idealists at heart and it wouldn’t be fair. The financial inequities of the past CBA penalized the small market franchises far more than any official could have.

So that is my answer. I hope, once this thread has played out, you will start another so the NHLPA supporters, especially those who supported the ‘no cap ever’ position, can explain why they hold their position. I would like to hear why they think the NHLPA position is good for hockey fans. But not on this thread…
 
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