Sidney vs Mario

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VanIslander

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It is such overhyped thinking as this thread that irks me.

However well reasoned and research, it's almost insulting to Mario to have such comparisons made.

This is more absurd than the comparison of Frolik with Jagr in terms of skill.
 

pei fan

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VanIslander said:
It is such overhyped thinking as this thread that irks me.

However well reasoned and research, it's almost insulting to Mario to have such comparisons made.

This is more absurd than the comparison of Frolik with Jagr in terms of skill.
What irks me is nonsense like this .Why can't we compare a junior hockey players accomplishments on a historical perspective.If anything is over hyped it is the
exxageration of Mario's junior hockey age accomplishments.They rank at least below
Crosby ,Gretzky,Orr,Lindros,and probably even Lafontaine.

It's insulting to Sidney to compare his accomplishments to a junior who didn't finish
in the top twenty scorers when he was 16 and only finished 3rd when he was 17.
Sidney is the first player to win the Q and CHL scoring race as a 16 year old.He is the first player to win back to back CHL scoring titles,regardless of age.He is the
first 16 year old to be named CHL player of the year and is sure to be the first
player of any age to repeat that accomplishment.

Nobody is saying that Sidney has accomplished or even will accomplish what
Mario has in the NHL.What we are saying is that because he is so special of a
junior hockey player he may match or surpass those accomplishments. Ofcourse
he may not but for CRYING OUT LOUD if we can speculate about how good a
Jeff Carter,Kyle Wellwood,and Ryan Getzlaf is going to be (and we do )can't we
do so for a player that is special and rare and can't we even get a little excited
that this player may bring the kind of excitement to the NHL that the other
great players like Gretzky,Orr,Howe,Lemieux,and Richard did?
 
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markov`

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pei fan said:
What irks me is nonsense like this .Why can't we compare a junior hockey players accomplishments on a historical perspective.If anything is over hyped it is the
exxageration of Mario's junior hockey age accomplishments.They rank at least below
Crosby ,Gretzky,Orr,Lindros,and probably even Lafontaine.

It's insulting to Sidney to compare his accomplishments to a junior who didn't finish
in the top twenty scorers when he was 16 and only finished 3rd when he was 17.
Sidney is the first player to win the Q and CHL scoring race as a 16 year old.He is the first player to win back to back CHL scoring titles,regardless of age.He is the
first 16 year old to be named CHL player of the year and is sure to be the first
player of any age to repeat that accomplishment.

Nobody is saying that Sidney has accomplished or even will accomplish what
Mario has in the NHL.What we are saying is that because he is so special of a
junior hockey player he may match or surpass those accomplishments. Ofcourse
he may not but for CRYING OUT LOUD if we can speculate about how good a
Jeff Carter,Kyle Wellwood,and Ryan Getzlaf is going to be (and we do )can't we
do so for a player that is special and rare and can't we even get a little excited
that this player may bring the kind of excitement to the NHL that the other
great players like Gretzky,Orr,Howe,Lemieux,and Richard did?

:bow:

I, for one, liked your Hail Marios. :biglaugh:

I know people are most of the time against you, but it happens often that you're the only one thinking like me.

I'm wondering what would have happened if HFBoards existed in 1984. One thing I can say is that Lemieux wouldn't be as hyped than Crosby at all by ANYONE. I said it so many times, Crosby and Lemieux statistical production and impact on their team at the same age aren't comparable. IMO Sidney has proved thus far that he has AT LEAST the same skill level as the greatest of all time. Let's see if he can succeed, but some of you who think he's going to be a Sakic-Lecavalier type player are going to be very, very surprised.
 

markov`

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For those who are wondering, as my profile shows, I really think that Crosby is gonna be greater than Lemieux when he retires. People aren't so sure about the kid because he never played in the NHL but the facts are there: no one, and I mean NO ONE, ever dominated the juniors at 16-17 like Sidney did. Lemieux, Lindros, Lafontaine, Lafleur, Daigle, Lecavalier, Sakic, Yzerman, bring 'em... Sidney is better than all of them at the same age.
 

pei fan

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Grave77digger said:
all of this will be moot if they are playing on the same team together
Exactly ,as Mario will be moved to the second line. :D
 

CRUNK JUICE

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markov` said:
For those who are wondering, as my profile shows, I really think that Crosby is gonna be greater than Lemieux when he retires. People aren't so sure about the kid because he never played in the NHL but the facts are there: no one, and I mean NO ONE, ever dominated the juniors at 16-17 like Sidney did. Lemieux, Lindros, Lafontaine, Lafleur, Daigle, Lecavalier, Sakic, Yzerman, bring 'em... Sidney is better than all of them at the same age.


stockwizard, is that you? :shakehead

Get back to me when Sid score 282 points next year. What made Mario so special was his meteoric rise over the course of his junior career. Young master Crosby still hasn't come close to DOUBLING his outcome between 16 and 17. I simply don't think Crosby has it in him to improve the way Lemieux did over the course of his junior carreer. If Sid gets 200 points, I'll be amazed. And even if he does, it really doesn't matter; no matter how much scoring has decreased in the last 2 decades, it won't be enough to make up for EIGHTY-TWO points.

And just to pre-empt any arguments about Crosby turning pro a year younger (assuming there's no NHL he and he leaves the Q for Europe or if there is an NHL (and yes, I have no problems admitting he'll be playing in it if there is)), if you think Lemieux couldn't have played pro in any league in the world at that age, you're kidding yourself.

Regardless, I'm done with this thread. I'm still amazed (and disgusted) at the lack of respect Lemieux gets around here. End of story.
 
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Le Golie

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pei fan said:
Only one big laugh.Come on that has to be worth several.
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

I'm all for Lemieux, he is an amazing player and in his prime he was magic out there, but that guy just sounds so angry. Hillarious.
 

speeds

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Dark Metamorphosis said:
edit - even though this is a good analysis, it doesn't mean it's perfect. there's no way of knowing how much Lemieux's numbers would drop if he played in the Q today. He has a distinct size advantage over Sidney which would definitely make today's game a bit easier for him.

hmm, I have been assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the average player is bigger and stronger in the Q now than he was 20 years ago. Is that a fair assumption?

If so, one might argue that it would be tougher, physically, for Lemieux now than it was when he played int eh Q in the 80's. We already know Crosby can handle that, we don't know how a draft eligible Lemieux would have. Yes he would still have a size advantage now, but he had likely a bigger size advantage back then as well.

Does that mean anything? Probably not, just throwing it out there.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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One thing people are not considering is the matter of improvement. Mario went from 96 to 184 to 282 pts in his 3 junior seasons, and continued to improve at an alarming rate in his early NHL seasons. Can anyone honestly tell me Crosby is improving at such a rate, and if he hasn't been, what makes you think he will improve at such a level to reach Mario Lemieux type status in the NHL?
 

Luigi Lemieux

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speeds said:
hmm, I have been assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the average player is bigger and stronger in the Q now than he was 20 years ago. Is that a fair assumption?

If so, one might argue that it would be tougher, physically, for Lemieux now than it was when he played int eh Q in the 80's. We already know Crosby can handle that, we don't know how a draft eligible Lemieux would have. Yes he would still have a size advantage now, but he had likely a bigger size advantage back then as well.

Does that mean anything? Probably not, just throwing it out there.
obviously his numbers would drop, but my point was that you can't just multiply his numbers by 60% to get his numbers today. Since he was big and mobile, his numbers likely wouldn't drop that much, as evidenced by his jawdropping numbers in the NHL, even in a low scoring era. (161 pts in 70 games in '96, 76 pts in 43 games in '01)
 

Hughes J Laffy

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Dark Metamorphosis said:
One thing people are not considering is the matter of improvement. Mario went from 96 to 184 to 282 pts in his 3 junior seasons, and continued to improve at an alarming rate in his early NHL seasons. Can anyone honestly tell me Crosby is improving at such a rate, and if he hasn't been, what makes you think he will improve at such a level to reach Mario Lemieux type status in the NHL?

Actually, Lemieux 96 points in his first season in QMJHL was considered a huuuge disapointed back then. In his final season he gave up smoking and start to work on his endurance and BANG! 282 points!
 

Jaded-Fan

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I think that people are getting the reaction of some here wrong. This really is not about Mario, or Gretz or anyone else. And sure, where else would anyone speculate about how any player, especially Crosby, would turn out but here on the prospects board. It certainly is approrpiate to do so here if anywhere.

It is just comparing a player, no matter how much potential that player has, with likely the two greatest players ever to lace up skates, and statistically finding either of those two lacking in comparison (and yes, you are drawing those conclusions, or else why put it here at all). That is . . . .well . . . :biglaugh:

Not just :biglaugh: but :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Seneca once was asked by a very very successful wealthy King who was the happiest man he knew, the King thinking that he would be named. Seneca named a man, not the King, to which the King asked for number two. Another not the King. Finally the King asked why not him. Seneca replied that the first had many children had won the marathon, achieved fame, and died a year before. Similar for the second. Count no man truly happy, truly successful, until his race has completely played out.

You all are comparing the two greatest to ever play the game, unfavorably slightly, to El Sid, before he has played one shift in the NHL, and are surprised by the chuckles? True, you can do it. But also true I can laugh my a$$ off at the endeavor. Let me say the Crosby seems to be a wonderful talent who should achieve much. I hope that someday he is looked back on as the greatest ever, the NHL could use that. But let him play a bit in the NHL before I start telling Mario and Gretz to move over.
 
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Pepper

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First Falloon, then Daigle, then Spezza and now Crosby. The overhyping never ends.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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i feel sorry for the kid. the way he's being hyped people will be disappointed with 120 or 130 pt seasons.
 

gb701

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Dark Metamorphosis said:
One thing people are not considering is the matter of improvement. Mario went from 96 to 184 to 282 pts in his 3 junior seasons, and continued to improve at an alarming rate in his early NHL seasons. Can anyone honestly tell me Crosby is improving at such a rate, and if he hasn't been, what makes you think he will improve at such a level to reach Mario Lemieux type status in the NHL?

:handclap:

The key to predicting Sid's future in comparison to someone like Mario is not to compare what they did at 16 - or 17 - or even 18. It is to predict what you think they are capable of doing at 20 - 22 - 25 - 30 etc.

Predictions based on past play are dangerous at best. This is not to say that predicting Sid as being capable of 283 points next year if he stayed in the Q are necessarily wrong, or predicting that he will be a "superstar" or put up huge numbers in the NHL would be wrong either. But in terms of assessing potential, rates of development are at least as important as whether he lead the CHL in points.

Personally, I am not convinced - yet - that this level of hype has been justified. But - and this is a big but - it is hard to argue with his success so far. So...I will wait and hope that he is the "next one". God knows the NHL needs all the help it can get.
 

dawgbone

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Dark Metamorphosis said:
obviously his numbers would drop, but my point was that you can't just multiply his numbers by 60% to get his numbers today.

Well he's not... he's basing it on league scoring for the era. And he's not saying Lemieux would have only scored such and such number of points, he's saying that all things being equal (i.e. scoring in their era), their numbers are statistically close. There is no doubt Lemieux contributed greatly to the high scoring numbers in the Q when he was there... but there's also no doubt that Crosby gives the Q now a boost in terms of scoring.

Since he was big and mobile, his numbers likely wouldn't drop that much, as evidenced by his jawdropping numbers in the NHL, even in a low scoring era. (161 pts in 70 games in '96, 76 pts in 43 games in '01)

Yes they would. Don't forget, in '96 and '01 he'd had quite a few years in the league, and experience at the NHL level is valuable... so using his NHL totals as a what-if isn't really valid. We aren't comparing NHL numbers after 10-15 years in the league.

The fact of the matter is players now are significantly bigger than they used to be, especially in junior. Mario would not have nearly the size advantage now as he did then, and that can't do anything other than hurt him (based on the way he plays). Goaltending and coaching is also much better now than it was then. I don't think the young Mario would have put up 282 points in this Q.

Unfortunately, with some of you people you don't understand era's. If Crosby is winning scoring titles with 120 points, while other players are scoring 90, I know that the thinking will be "Well Gretzky scored 215 points...". Fact of the matter is, Crosby would still be dominating the league and the scoring race like Gretzky did, but because of how different the era's are, if you are only looking at total points naturally you are going to see a huge difference between Crosby and a guy like Gretzky or Lemieux.

Crosby already has failed... moron hockey fans have already decided that. In order for Crosby to be mentioned like Gretzky or Lemieux, he's going to have to put up point totals like they did.

That's just not possible. There is nothing in the way the game is evolving that makes me think that scoring is ever going to be like it was for guys like Gretzky or Mario. Back in the 60's,70's,80's and early 90's the game was still evolving. Goalies weren't quite as good, quite as mobile, quite as big as they are now. Coaches weren't nearly as smart, resourceful, or dedicated as they are now. The players now are bigger, smarter, faster, than ever before.

Sorry, but Gretzky in his prime wouldn't score 215 points in this NHL. He wouldn't have nearly 3000 NHL points playing in this era. To me, he's still the greatest player who ever lived, but I am not a dummy. He'd be facing the best checkers who were all bigger and faster than him, and who also were positionally superior to the players he ate up in the 80's and 90's. He'd still probably be the best offensive player in the league, but it wouldn't be to the extent he did it back in the 80's.

If we are expecting Crosby to score points like Lemieux or Gretzky... it won't happen. There isn't a chance in hell (it's too bad Gretz said Crosby could break all his records... because even Wayne knows that isn't possible). There is however, a chance that Crosby will dominate the NHL much like those two did. Where they were above and beyond anyone else in the league. If we are talking about that, then I think it's stupid to say Crosby will never do that. He's too good to write that possibility off. The kid hasn't failed at all yet... I just don't see how you could discount him.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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dawgbone said:
Well he's not... he's basing it on league scoring for the era. And he's not saying Lemieux would have only scored such and such number of points, he's saying that all things being equal (i.e. scoring in their era), their numbers are statistically close. There is no doubt Lemieux contributed greatly to the high scoring numbers in the Q when he was there... but there's also no doubt that Crosby gives the Q now a boost in terms of scoring.



Yes they would. Don't forget, in '96 and '01 he'd had quite a few years in the league, and experience at the NHL level is valuable... so using his NHL totals as a what-if isn't really valid. We aren't comparing NHL numbers after 10-15 years in the league.

The fact of the matter is players now are significantly bigger than they used to be, especially in junior. Mario would not have nearly the size advantage now as he did then, and that can't do anything other than hurt him (based on the way he plays). Goaltending and coaching is also much better now than it was then. I don't think the young Mario would have put up 282 points in this Q.

Unfortunately, with some of you people you don't understand era's. If Crosby is winning scoring titles with 120 points, while other players are scoring 90, I know that the thinking will be "Well Gretzky scored 215 points...". Fact of the matter is, Crosby would still be dominating the league and the scoring race like Gretzky did, but because of how different the era's are, if you are only looking at total points naturally you are going to see a huge difference between Crosby and a guy like Gretzky or Lemieux.

Crosby already has failed... moron hockey fans have already decided that. In order for Crosby to be mentioned like Gretzky or Lemieux, he's going to have to put up point totals like they did.

That's just not possible. There is nothing in the way the game is evolving that makes me think that scoring is ever going to be like it was for guys like Gretzky or Mario. Back in the 60's,70's,80's and early 90's the game was still evolving. Goalies weren't quite as good, quite as mobile, quite as big as they are now. Coaches weren't nearly as smart, resourceful, or dedicated as they are now. The players now are bigger, smarter, faster, than ever before.

Sorry, but Gretzky in his prime wouldn't score 215 points in this NHL. He wouldn't have nearly 3000 NHL points playing in this era. To me, he's still the greatest player who ever lived, but I am not a dummy. He'd be facing the best checkers who were all bigger and faster than him, and who also were positionally superior to the players he ate up in the 80's and 90's. He'd still probably be the best offensive player in the league, but it wouldn't be to the extent he did it back in the 80's.

If we are expecting Crosby to score points like Lemieux or Gretzky... it won't happen. There isn't a chance in hell (it's too bad Gretz said Crosby could break all his records... because even Wayne knows that isn't possible). There is however, a chance that Crosby will dominate the NHL much like those two did. Where they were above and beyond anyone else in the league. If we are talking about that, then I think it's stupid to say Crosby will never do that. He's too good to write that possibility off. The kid hasn't failed at all yet... I just don't see how you could discount him.
i know all about the era differences. I said 60% because isn't today's scoring in the Q about 60% of what it was in 1984? Nobody's saying he has to put up 200 pts to be considered with them. However, I have no doubt that a prime Mario and Wayne would both put up 150 pts in today's NHL.
 
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