Should Holland be replaced as GM? (and moved to front office)

[Pavels Dog]

Then why do I keep hearing how great we are at drafting and development? Because we can draft wingers, literary the least important part of building a cup team.

since 2000 we have Filppua, Helm, Andersson, Sheahan and Larkin. So a 2nd line two 3rd line, a 4th line and who knows with Larkin.

Because statistically we should have the worst draft record in the league since 95.

 

[Frk It]

Didn't they do that with Larkin, Sheahan and Jurco? Plenty of callups for Nyquist and tatar too, those weren't opportunities?They gave XO chances but then Marchenko ended up taking the job. AA's 30+ games wasn't an opportunity or Mantha's 10 games?
What is an opportunity ? Being gifted a full-time roster spot for no reason and staying in the NHL for 82 games regardless of performance?

Let's not just default to "gifting". I'm not advocating gifting.

When you have a player that produces at the rate that AA did last year, and passes the eye test with a clearly high skill level, let's construct the roster so that there is actually a roster spot he can attain. Without injuries.

When you have Mantha, who get's called up and put into a net front role on the PP, and hmm coincidentally the PP heats up over that same span, maybe you leave a roster spot open that he can attain. Without injuries.

Now to be clear, not a roster spot for each. But one roster spot that both can compete for and BEST man wins. You lay it out this way.

What WE do is clog the roster so badly, that even having a fantastic camp doesn't matter, and the only way to make the team is through injuries. With very FEW exceptions. I'm not really a fan of that. I would say -- ok wow, AA and Mantha both looked really good and can add some elements to this team (size/speed), I'm going to let one of them play in the top 9 so I'm going to leave a spot open there they can compete for. Since they both looked good last year.

 

[njx9]

What WE do is clog the roster so badly, that even having a fantastic camp doesn't matter, and the only way to make the team is through injuries.

Can either even make the team, truly make the team, as a result of injuries, or does the cap preclude any ability to keep them up?

Honest question: let's say Vanek plays poorly, then gets hurt. Mantha gets called up, and scores lights out. Vanek then comes back from injury. Is there any possible way that the team can keep Mantha up at that point, or do the realities of the cap management essentially force him back to GR?

 

[jkutswings]

Sure thing. Exactly like what happened with Larkin.

Right. Because, over the last decade, Larkin is clearly the poster boy for how this franchise handles prospects, and not the exception to the rule.

 

[Frk It]

Can either even make the team, truly make the team, as a result of injuries, or does the cap preclude any ability to keep them up?

Honest question: let's say Vanek plays poorly, then gets hurt. Mantha gets called up, and scores lights out. Vanek then comes back from injury. Is there any possible way that the team can keep Mantha up at that point, or do the realities of the cap management essentially force him back to GR?

No.

Holland has said they need to be top 9 or they will go to GR. Top 9 is very clearly: Larkin, Z, Nielsen, Tatar, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Sheahan, Helm, Vanek

 

[jkutswings]

You're explicitly asking people to defend a position that they haven't taken when you ask me to defend the idea that doing what Detroit is doing is the best way to get "high end pieces". I still don't know why you think that's a meaningful avenue of discussion.

Again, not what I said. My point of contention is that some fans believe that the current approach is certainly possible, and perhaps even reasonable, to win a championship. Not necessarily the best, but absolutely viable. And I don't see how this strategy can ever acquire sufficient talent to do it, considering that several years of the approach has failed to yield multiple key pieces necessary to even have a realistic shot.

That's a bit too strident a position for me, given that we're a whopping 10 or so years into a hard cap and that for every Chicago or LA there are 4-5 teams who were tanking yet who aren't an inch closer to a Cup now than they were the day they started.

That points to the fact that high draft picks are far from a guarantee. But it says nothing about the viability of the ultra-conservative methods Holland employs.

And that's another somewhat overblown position.

They're taking a break from a hard Cup push that lasted 25 years. The longtime owner is in serious physical decline and (not to be morbid) is not too terribly long for the world. They're focusing their organizational energy on moving the team, making hundreds of millions from the city and their taxpayers, and trying to stay vaguely relevant throughout.

Can we just call it that and be accurate without having to inject 'Fan Outrage Component X-01' into our necks and thrash about like Bane as we declare the team to be 'an embarrassing husk' or whatnot?

I was under the impression that this was a message board for fans, not a PR department for the franchise.

The franchise has the right to set their own goals. And fans have the right to say that those goals are good, bad, realistic, foolish, or however else they feel. So if their modus operandi now appears to be, "cash the easy checks until Illitch passes", it's ok for me to label that as a lousy way to run a sports franchise.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Honestly, who cares if the Ilitch family is going to make even more money because Holland is being ultra conservative and the team is stale first round fodder? Is that going to translate into a better hockey team? No? Then what do I get out of them lining their own pockets?

 

[Heaton]

Why did it happen though? Because of a fluke? Or because Larkin was too good to hold back? Who are all the superstars we've been sending to GR for 5 years instead of letting them dominate the NHL? I'm waiting for that list. Cholowski could spend 2-3 years in college and jump right into the NHL, IF HE'S GOOD ENOUGH.

Mantha will be sent down if he's not good enough. If Jeff Blashill doesn't think he makes the team better.

Why do they need to be superstars and dominate? What about the years of ****** players Holland has signed instead of giving the younger kids a chance? What about not re-signing Todd Bertuzzi and letting Tatar have a chance? How about Nyquist? Smith? You want your 4th line to have energy and cause issues, what issues does Drew Miller create? Or Steve Ott at this point of his career? Wouldn't Tyler Bertuzzi make more sense to give a shot right out of the gate and then if he doesn't work out, you can sign or trade for a veteran that fills the role.

I think the main concern is that we have players that fizzle out pretty hard, we're not really generating much talent in the NHL these days in comparison to other NHL franchises. We're basically a run of the mill drafting team without drafting any high end defensemen or centers.

The Wings are a decent wing drafting team, that's about it, and when they have a surplus, they'd rather lose their prospects for nothing, than trade them when they have value for upgrades.

 

[njx9]

No.

Holland has said they need to be top 9 or they will go to GR. Top 9 is very clearly: Larkin, Z, Nielsen, Tatar, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Sheahan, Helm, Vanek

So all of this talk about them being able to earn a spot is literally nothing more than hot air. Even if Mantha plays like Gretzky in the preseason, there isn't space for him because of the cap mis-management. So why are we still talking like there's a meritocracy?

 

[Frk It]

So all of this talk about them being able to earn a spot is literally nothing more than hot air. Even if Mantha plays like Gretzky in the preseason, there isn't space for him because of the cap mis-management. So why are we still talking like there's a meritocracy?

Us, a meritocracy? Lol.

 

[njx9]

Us, a meritocracy? Lol.

I agree, sorry, that was a more general question. I don't think any of our GR-bound guys have an opportunity to win a permanent roster spot this season, minus whichever D is destined to sit in the press box every night.

On the plus side for Mantha, I guess, he'll get to go to LV next year, if we don't trade him for peanuts (oh, I'm sorry, for Legwand) first.

 

[Frk It]

I agree, sorry, that was a more general question. I don't think any of our GR-bound guys have an opportunity to win a permanent roster spot this season, minus whichever D is destined to sit in the press box every night.

On the plus side for Mantha, I guess, he'll get to go to LV next year, if we don't trade him for peanuts (oh, I'm sorry, for Legwand) first.

I genuinely believe that if Mantha or AA scored a goal in every single game they played in, and no one got hurt, it wouldn't matter at all.

I mean Nyquist had 5 pts in 5 games in the preseason of 2011...

Babcock said this...

"He’s a real good player, looks like he’s an NHL player," Babcock said. "We’ve always kind of done things the same way, we send those kids to the minors and let them play a little bit and see what we got here (in Detroit), see how the year starts."

and then he didn't make the team full time until 2014

 

[Pavels Dog]

Right. Because, over the last decade, Larkin is clearly the poster boy for how this franchise handles prospects, and not the exception to the rule.

Great prospects who are NHL ready quickly get into the NHL faster than mediocre/good prospects that need time to become NHL ready. It's really, really simple. Says a lot that people keep harping on Nyquist's development path. An undersized guy who had several underwhelming call-ups took time to become an NHL regular??? Amazing.

Let's not just default to "gifting". I'm not advocating gifting.

When you have a player that produces at the rate that AA did last year, and passes the eye test with a clearly high skill level, let's construct the roster so that there is actually a roster spot he can attain. Without injuries.

When you have Mantha, who get's called up and put into a net front role on the PP, and hmm coincidentally the PP heats up over that same span, maybe you leave a roster spot open that he can attain. Without injuries.

Now to be clear, not a roster spot for each. But one roster spot that both can compete for and BEST man wins. You lay it out this way.

What WE do is clog the roster so badly, that even having a fantastic camp doesn't matter, and the only way to make the team is through injuries. With very FEW exceptions. I'm not really a fan of that. I would say -- ok wow, AA and Mantha both looked really good and can add some elements to this team (size/speed), I'm going to let one of them play in the top 9 so I'm going to leave a spot open there they can compete for. Since they both looked good last year.

Building a roster with the idea that injuries won't happen is extremely stupid and should only be done if you absolutely have to.
Holland also knew about stuff like Pulkkinen's surgery before free agency IIRC. Injuries happen 100% of the time, and waiving someone like Miller if they are pushed out by kids is easier than finding trades/free agents in the middle of the season to fill holes.
My bet: both AA and Mantha spend most of the season in the NHL.

 

[Frk It]

Great prospects who are NHL ready quickly get into the NHL faster than mediocre/good prospects that need time to become NHL ready. It's really, really simple. Says a lot that people keep harping on Nyquist's development path. An undersized guy who had several underwhelming call-ups took time to become an NHL regular??? Amazing.

Building a roster with the idea that injuries won't happen is extremely stupid and should only be done if you absolutely have to.
Holland also knew about stuff like Pulkkinen's surgery before free agency IIRC. Injuries happen 100% of the time, and waiving someone like Miller if they are pushed out by kids is easier than finding trades/free agents in the middle of the season to fill holes.
My bet: both AA and Mantha spend most of the season in the NHL.

Well, I would have advocated for this:

Zetterberg-Nielsen-Tatar
Abdelkader-Larkin-Nyquist
Vanek-Sheahan-X

With X up for grabs, in a competition between AA, Mantha, Jurco, and Pulkkinen. Would have set it up that way before the latter two went down. Even after that, more than fine having the competition be between just AA and Mantha.

You can still have the same 4th line, and then your callups are loser of AA/Mantha, and then Frk, Nosek, or Bertuzzi.

I don't see the issue with it, or how it does not account for potential injuries.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Well, I would have advocated for this:

Zetterberg-Nielsen-Tatar
Abdelkader-Larkin-Nyquist
Vanek-Sheahan-X

With X up for grabs, in a competition between AA, Mantha, Jurco, and Pulkkinen. Would have set it up that way before the latter two went down. Even after that, more than fine having the competition be between just AA and Mantha.

You can still have the same 4th line, and then your callups are loser of AA/Mantha, and then Frk, Nosek, or Bertuzzi.

I don't see the issue with it, or how it does not account for potential injuries.

Isn't that what we have?

 

[Frk It]

Isn't that what we have?

If we didn't re-sign Helm, yes. He's not going to get 3.85 million to play on the 4th line.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If we didn't re-sign Helm, yes. He's not going to get 3.85 million to play on the 4th line.

Not sure what his contract has to do with where he plays. Blashill will play the guys where he wants to, really doubt he's got everyone's caphit in mind when making lines. Insert a kid on that 3rd line and it probably gets less icetime than the supposed "4th" line anyway.

 

[Frk It]

Not sure what his contract has to do with where he plays. Blashill will play the guys where he wants to, really doubt he's got everyone's caphit in mind when making lines. Insert a kid on that 3rd line and it probably gets less icetime than the supposed "4th" line anyway.

I doubt he would have signed here without some assurance he would get playing time. Even if you want to try and say his caphit isn't a factor.

 

[Winger98]

The NHL isn't a development league. Mantha/AA/etc don't do ALL of their development in the AHL but they need to get to a certain point where they're not liabilities in the NHL, where they can handle the physicality and speed and the 82 game grind at a certain level.
What many fans ignore in the veteran vs. kid discussions is that it is very difficult to handle an NHL season. A guy like Darren Helm can be counted on to be basically the exact same player in Game 1 of the season as he is in Game 56 or Game 82. Larkin on the other hand was nowhere near the same player in the second half as he was in the first half. The grind wore him down. And he is a special, special kid. Many other prospects don't handle an NHL season nearly as well at that age. You don't want to rush prospects into the 82 game grind if you don't have to. AA got 30+ games last year, he'll probably get more this year. Mantha got 10 last year, he'll probably get more. Becoming an everyday NHLer is like climbing Mount Everest, you can't do it all in one climb. You need to get acclimatized (exceptions being of course the Crosbys of the world).

Larkin was 19 last year coming off of a year of playing all of 50 games between college, national teams, and GR. Athanasiou and Mantha are both 22 this year, played 70+ games last year, and are more accustomed to the pro grind than some kid out of college. If we were looking at them jumping in out of juniors I'd agree with you, but another full year in GR isn't going to be some cure-all for getting through an NHL schedule. Getting through an NHL schedule, however, would be.

I think we're too quick to chalk up more time in GR being a good thing, and we overplay how these prospects are going to fall apart under the weight of playing in the NHL.

 

[Winger98]

I doubt he would have signed here without some assurance he would get playing time. Even if you want to try and say his caphit isn't a factor.

though cap hit is obviously a factor. If you're playing a guy 8 minutes a night, you don't have to blow $4m to fill that spot. Helm's getting 16 minutes a night this year, and he's going to get it in the top9, maybe top6. Maybe in a couple of years we'll see Helm moved to the fourth line.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Not sure what his contract has to do with where he plays. Blashill will play the guys where he wants to, really doubt he's got everyone's caphit in mind when making lines. Insert a kid on that 3rd line and it probably gets less icetime than the supposed "4th" line anyway.

if cap hit didnt influence ice time then everybody's cap hit would be the same

i cant imagine KH wants is 20 million dollar player playing 8 minutes a night, 2 months after backing up the brinks truck to his front door

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

They're taking a break from a hard Cup push that lasted 25 years. The longtime owner is in serious physical decline and (not to be morbid) is not too terribly long for the world. They're focusing their organizational energy on moving the team, making hundreds of millions from the city and their taxpayers, and trying to stay vaguely relevant throughout.

Can we just call it that and be accurate without having to inject 'Fan Outrage Component X-01' into our necks and thrash about like Bane as we declare the team to be 'an embarrassing husk' or whatnot?

this thread like ALL other threads on HF Boards is about fans discussing how THEY perceive things and what THEY would like to see differently

from the game day threads critiquing the power play, penalty kill, breakout philosophy, line combinations, game strategy at home vs the road, ice time, individual player puck decisions to the prospect and draft discussion to the trade scenarios, every SINGLE ONE OF THEM is from a fans POV

absolutely NONE of them mater one iota to the people and players involved in any of the franchises and the decisions THEY choose intentionally to make but thats not the point of the board

perhaps somebody should create a hockey message board where all the teams themselves post all their philosophies and decisions and the fans can log in and be given one option, that is to say bravo

perhaps that would be a great venture idea for yourself

until such time however this board is not about that and this thread is doing a good enough job to warrant keeping his job based on what THEY want/like/believe, etc

 

[Pavels Dog]

I doubt he would have signed here without some assurance he would get playing time. Even if you want to try and say his caphit isn't a factor.

if cap hit didnt influence ice time then everybody's cap hit would be the same

i cant imagine KH wants is 20 million dollar player playing 8 minutes a night, 2 months after backing up the brinks truck to his front door

When was the last time our 4th line got 8 minutes a night? One of the most common criticisms around here is that Glendening/Miller/etc get too much icetime. Helm-Glenny-Miller/Ott could be a very good shutdown line that gets 12-15 minutes per game. Helm is signed and I seriously doubt he would throw a tantrum if he's not playing together with Vanek and Sheahan, and I also doubt Holland would order Blashill to give Helm a certain amount of icetime just because he's signed to a new contract. If Helm is in the top 9 it's because Blashill thinks that's best for the team, not because of caphits.

But I forget I'm on the board where everyone thinks every injury is just part of a conspiracy to reduce the roster logjam. Nothing is ever what it seems, right? Let me just grab my tinfoil hat..

 

[njx9]

Yeah, I mean, it's not like Helm complained about his usage prior to resigning, suggesting that some agreement was made regarding it. If he sucks, I'm *sure* he'll be benched or whatever.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yeah, I mean, it's not like Helm complained about his usage prior to resigning, suggesting that some agreement was made regarding it. If he sucks, I'm *sure* he'll be benched or whatever.

Helm won't suck, he's been one of our most consistent and reliable players for years. He "complained" about his role not being clearly defined. He did not say he will only accept playing in the top 9, on a scoring line or in an offensive role. He did not say he'd rather play 10 minutes a game with Vanek and Sheahan instead of 15 minutes a game together with Glendening against the opposition's best line.