Should Crosby Still be #1?

[therealdeal]

Definetly, look at what he's doing as an 18 year old. 2 years for a kid that age is a millenium in developement, strength, speed.

 

[Brad Tolliver]

Crosby's having the best season for a true 18-year-old rookie (a player who spends his entire rookie year in the NHL as an 18-year-old) since Dale Hawerchuk in 1982.

Not that it proves anything, but it's intresting that you brought up Hawerchuk. He actually scored fewer points in his 2nd and 3rd seasons than his rookie year.

 

[gbl1p]

Not that it proves anything, but it's intresting that you brought up Hawerchuk. He actually scored fewer points in his 2nd and 3rd seasons than his rookie year.

What is the purpose of this statement? To remind everyone that Crosby could have less points in his 2nd and 3rd seasons? Why not remind everyone of the countless times rookies have 2nd and 3rd seasons yielding more points?

 

[Brad Tolliver]

What is the purpose of this statement? To remind everyone that Crosby could have less points in his 2nd and 3rd seasons? Why not remind everyone of the countless times rookies have 2nd and 3rd seasons yielding more points?

Because he wasn't compared to other rookies? There have been countless rookies that didn't start producing right away. Are you trying to suggest that Crosby isn't producing?

 

[SmokeyClause]

Definetly, look at what he's doing as an 18 year old. 2 years for a kid that age is a millenium in developement, strength, speed.

I'm hardly an avid Crosby supporter (it would actually be a challenge to find a recent post of mine where I actually made any comments about Crosby), but I think this is way too overlooked. I do think that Ovechkin is the better player right now. But what will Crosby look like in two years? Yeah, sure he could be a Jason Arnott and have his first year be his best statistically. But odds are that this is just the beginning. He's on pace for 90 points this year. That's an insane year for a 18 year old rookie. How many NHL players who played their entire rookie season as an 18 year old managed to score even 60 points? Patrice Bergeron doesn't even score 40 points during his 18 year old season and it's considered an incredibly good season. At what point do people step back from all the hype and recognize the kid for what he has accomplished?

Maybe I am not as jaded as most on here. Living in Nashville, I am not subject to the incredible hype surrounding Crosby. And because of that, I don't have any underlying hatred of the kid. Maybe that allows me to enjoy his accomplishments a shade more. Either way, I'd say he's the best 18 year old that the NHL has ever seen. I consider myself luck to enjoy Crosby with an unfettered mind and I feel bad for those who have been so inundated with the hype that they lose all care for the kid.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

are you mantaly ill???? cause I think you are. you should see your doctor.
Beats them both combined.. mmm well how can he beat them both combined if AO is better then SC.
And Malkin is only a year older. wow is that a lot?
i would like to star a poll ( who is #1 AO or SC, but only canedians, russians and us cannot participate.) (well i will not start a poll like that cause i think a lot of SC fans will get disapointed )

Hmmm... OK. You guys have all bashed my point, but no one has yet to offer up a valid argument, this kid especially - which is why I chose this post from a myriad of other similar, arrogant babblings. JADED-FAN actually read my simple opinion and interpreted it best.

Yes, I'll repeat, Crosby has more potential than Ovechkin and Malkin COMBINED!

Yes, Ovechkin was 20 when he made his debut (and a year does make a huge difference, two years makes an enormous difference). Ovechkin is the best Caps player and one of the best in the league already. In think we're already seeing what the next 15 years will be like for him. Maybe you disagree and believe he's capable of 300 points a season... well, no he isn't, sorry.

Crosby is 18 and right at Ovechkin's heels. Malkin is prpbably the best player in Europe. I understand how good they both are, and I still say Crosby is that much better.

If your emotions are provoked, please find some way to deliver an argument worth everyone's time. Thanks.

 

[EroCaps]

What is the purpose of this statement? To remind everyone that Crosby could have less points in his 2nd and 3rd seasons? Why not remind everyone of the countless times rookies have 2nd and 3rd seasons yielding more points?

When was the last time an 18yrd old scored as many points as Hawerchuck his rookie season and improved upon that his 2nd/3rd? Granted, it's likely Crosby will- but it's an assumption. I'm sure everyone assumed Hawerchuck would have a killer 2nd/3rd year. If you're going to make broad generalizations about Crosby's vast overeaching potential, it goes both ways. Ovechkin will score many more points w/talented linemates when he reaches his prime.

 

[Epsilon]

Yes, I'll repeat, Crosby has more potential than Ovechkin and Malkin COMBINED!

That's simply an absurd statement regardless of which way one falls in the Ovechkin/Crosby debate.

 

[gbl1p]

When was the last time an 18yrd old scored as many points as Hawerchuck his rookie season and improved upon that his 2nd/3rd? Granted, it's likely Crosby will- but it's an assumption. I'm sure everyone assumed Hawerchuck would have a killer 2nd/3rd year. If you're going to make broad generalizations about Crosby's vast overeaching potential, it goes both ways. Ovechkin will score many more points w/talented linemates when he reaches his prime.

You're suggesting I make "broad generalizations about Crosby's vast overeaching potential"? As a matter of fact, like I have maintained while watching Crosbys junior career where he smashed every expectation of him, he has never stopped exceeding expectations. It's one argument after another that he ends. Crosby is too small. Crosby is too young. Crosby hasn't played against men. And now he's on pace for 90+ points in an 18 yr old rookie season that hasn't been seen in a quarter decade and still people find a way to cut the kid down. It's hilarious, frankly. "Ovechkin>Crosby"

But back to the point. I don't doubt for a second that Ovy has yet to reach his potential either, but that is not the issue. The issue is the massive under-appreciation for such an amazing 18 yr old rookie season. In a sense, it's good that Ovechkins world class year is overshadowing all others including Crosby. For once in Sid's career he is not the head and shoulders best. But at what point do people totally lose sight of what is happening here? You'd think people who post at a board called "hockeysfuture" would be the last ones not appreciating such an exceptional rookie season.

 

[Slitty]

Ovechkin and Malkin are both a good deal older than Crosby, especially Ovechkin. He was ready for the NHL in '03, so he probably won't get TOO much better than he already is. Crosby, as much a spoiled, whimpering brat as he shown tgo be, has miles higher to go, and you can see it in his play.

I'm starting to believe Malkin might be even better than Ovechkin in the long run. Crosby beats them both combined.

Malkin is less than a year older than Crosby.

 

[EroCaps]

And now he's on pace for 90+ points in an 18 yr old rookie season that hasn't been seen in a quarter decade and still people find a way to cut the kid down. It's hilarious, frankly. "Ovechkin>Crosby"

.

It's hilarious. It's not even plausible. I mean Crosby is 18 and Ovechkin is one-dimensional.

This thread reminds me of the Calder threads before this season began.

We'll see.

 

[CCCR]

Hmmm... OK. You guys have all bashed my point, but no one has yet to offer up a valid argument, this kid especially - which is why I chose this post from a myriad of other similar, arrogant babblings. JADED-FAN actually read my simple opinion and interpreted it best.

Yes, I'll repeat, Crosby has more potential than Ovechkin and Malkin COMBINED!

Yes, Ovechkin was 20 when he made his debut (and a year does make a huge difference, two years makes an enormous difference). Ovechkin is the best Caps player and one of the best in the league already. In think we're already seeing what the next 15 years will be like for him. Maybe you disagree and believe he's capable of 300 points a season... well, no he isn't, sorry.

Crosby is 18 and right at Ovechkin's heels. Malkin is prpbably the best player in Europe. I understand how good they both are, and I still say Crosby is that much better.

If your emotions are provoked, please find some way to deliver an argument worth everyone's time. Thanks.

what are you smoking?
you never know what might happen in 1,2,3 years or so on, ( are you god? that you are so shore about your statment) and have you seen MALKIN PLAY (exept olympic games?)

 

[stockwizard*]

I have followed Crosby's career very closely since he was 14.
There are a lot of uneducated posters on here. Guys that say Crosby is too small, etc...
When I watched Crosby work out in the gym when he was 14, he was pressing more weight then most grown men.
Crosby is stronger then Ovechkin is.
The reason why Crosby will improve from18-20 years of age is because obviously the natural factors is at play, but also the fact that no one has more desire and has a stronger work ethic than Crosby.
He cut out all sugary sweets from his diet at 13, and started doing gruelling workouts from a young age.

 

[mytor4*]

I have followed Crosby's career very closely since he was 14.
There are a lot of uneducated posters on here. Guys that say Crosby is too small, etc...
When I watched Crosby work out in the gym and 14 he was pressing more weight then most grown men.
Crosby is stronger then Ovechkin is.
The reason why Crosby will improve from18-20 years of age is because obviously the natural factors is at play, but also the fact that no one has more desire and has a stronger work ethic than Crosby.
He cut out all sugary sweets from his diet at 13, and started doing gruelling workouts from a young age.

quote from wealthmanager[ Crosby is stronger then Ovechkin . no one has more desire and has a stronger work ethic than Crosby.]

how the hell would you know that crosby is stronger than ovechkin and also has more disire and work ethic.those two statements alone discredits anything you say.why all this bs.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

what are you smoking?
you never know what might happen in 1,2,3 years or so on, ( are you god? that you are so shore about your statment) and have you seen MALKIN PLAY (exept olympic games?)

Who said that Crosby 'will' improve more than Ovechkin? Most here who have commented spoke in terms of probabilities not certainties. Because of the nature of human growth patterns from late teens as opposed to when a man in early tweenties it is likely . . . but not certain . . . that he has more room to grow than Ovechkin. Simple.

 

[Steve Latin*]

This debate is silly. Malkin should be number 1. He's the best player in the RSL and quite possibly the best player at the Olympics. He looks like Lemieux in the offensive zone and looks like Bob Gainey in the defensive zone. He has the potential to be the best two-way player ever.

 

[stockwizard*]

This debate is silly. Malkin should be number 1. He's the best player in the RSL and quite possibly the best player at the Olympics. He looks like Lemieux in the offensive zone and looks like Bob Gainey in the defensive zone. He has the potential to be the best two-way player ever.

Very funny.
Crosby is better than Malkin in just about every facet of the game.

 

[Steve Latin*]

Passing / shooting / skating / vision are debatable, but Malkin's defensive game and his face-off abilities are clearly better.

 

[Polska]

It's hilarious. It's not even plausible. I mean Crosby is 18 and Ovechkin is one-dimensional.

This thread reminds me of the Calder threads before this season began.

We'll see.

Ya, I mean all he can do is hit anyone, score from anywhere, feather passes anywhere, and unlike crosby is a plus player (and they both play on ****** teams so that't not a factor in the +/-). Ya, that's one dimension .

 

[stockwizard*]

Passing / shooting / skating / vision are debatable, but Malkin's defensive game and his face-off abilities are clearly better.

OK
Crosby is clearly a better passer, skater, and is stronger on the puck. Crosby is unbelievable in the corners for an 18 year old and will only get better.

Malkin's shot may be just as good or better, but Crosby will still score more goals because of his strength, soft hands and hockey sense around the net.

Crosby uses a straight blade on his stick so his backhand is lethal, but it takes away from his slapper.

Faceoffs I give to Malkin.

 

[Steve Latin*]

OK
Crosby is clearly a better passer, skater, and is stronger on the puck. Crosby is unbelievable in the corners for an 18 year old and will only get better.

Malkin's shot may be just as good or better, but Crosby will still score more goals because of his strength, soft hands and hockey sense around the net.

Crosby uses a straight blade on his stick so his backhand is lethal, but it takes away from his slapper.

Faceoffs I give to Malkin.

I've seen most of the Pens games this year and have gone to 7 or 8 in person, and I'm mostly in agreement. Crosby gets almost all of his goals by being in the right place around the net. His ability to get open right next to the goalie is really uncanny. That's something I haven't seen from Malkin.

Also very impressed (and initially surprised) with his work along the boards. He has Jagr-esque lower leg strength. However, he tends to go into the boards much more on the forecheck than the backcheck. While I wouldn't say he looks lost in the defensive zone, he's rarely the guy to take the puck away from an opposing forward. That's one of Malkin's specialties, particularly on the penalty kill. Malkin's great at using his long reach to poke check the puck away and using his speed and passing in the transition game to create a rush up the ice. Crosby's reach is considerably shorter.

I've seen them both lay some great hits, so I can't really say who has the edge in that department.

IMHO Crosby will probably put up better numbers, but he'll never look like a third defender on the ice.

Crosby can dominate a game with his offense. Malkin can dominate a game with his puck possession and tenacious two-way play. Both are critical to a team's success.

 

[CCCR]

I've seen most of the Pens games this year and have gone to 7 or 8 in person, and I'm mostly in agreement. Crosby gets almost all of his goals by being in the right place around the net. His ability to get open right next to the goalie is really uncanny. That's something I haven't seen from Malkin.

Also very impressed (and initially surprised) with his work along the boards. He has Jagr-esque lower leg strength. However, he tends to go into the boards much more on the forecheck than the backcheck. While I wouldn't say he looks lost in the defensive zone, he's rarely the guy to take the puck away from an opposing forward. That's one of Malkin's specialties, particularly on the penalty kill. Malkin's great at using his long reach to poke check the puck away and using his speed and passing in the transition game to create a rush up the ice. Crosby's reach is considerably shorter.

I've seen them both lay some great hits, so I can't really say who has the edge in that department.
:
IMHO Crosby will probably put up better numbers, but he'll never look like a third defender on the ice.

Crosby can dominate a game with his offense. Malkin can dominate a game with his puck possession and tenacious two-way play. Both are critical to a team's success.

 

[EroCaps]

Ya, I mean all he can do is hit anyone, score from anywhere, feather passes anywhere, and unlike crosby is a plus player (and they both play on ****** teams so that't not a factor in the +/-). Ya, that's one dimension .

I was being sarcastic.

It's ludicrous to me anyone who believes that Malkin or Crosby have somehow established themselves as better all-around players than Ovechkin. He is as multi-dimensional a player as I've ever seen and is great on the PK. It says a lot that he was the player chosen to be double-shifted in Frolov's absence.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I was being sarcastic.

It's ludicrous to me anyone who believes that Malkin or Crosby have somehow established themselves as better all-around players than Ovechkin. He is as multi-dimensional a player as I've ever seen and is great on the PK. It says a lot that he was the player chosen to be double-shifted in Frolov's absence.

Most of us have agreed that Ovechkin has a slight edge on Crosby . . . and Malkin not playing a shift can hardly be called better now either. But do not get too far ahead of yourself Chief. Especially with Crosby, going head to head all year, and the difference is mighty thin. But I will grant you that thin difference. Then again if we go there we get into the two year age difference argument then too, don't we?

 

[Dooger]

Of course he will get better. You all miss the point though. Think a bell curve. If you tracked the average players increase in stats, ability, etc. during his career there would be a much bigger vertical incline upward between 18 and 20, because of mostly physical, but also mental, maturation than there would be during any other period of a players' career. Not for all but for almost all.

We went over this in another thread. I even used Lemieux and Gretzky as an example.
LINK
What you are doing is taking extraordinary talents like Ovechkin and Crosby and applying what you believe happens in an "average player's" development.

I'm not even convinced what you are saying is true. The "vertical Incline" you think exists at age 18-20 does not happen with the average player. How many players have a breakout year at 20? Not many. How many have a breakout year at 24 or 25? A lot. Some not until 26-27.

This imaginary jump in development between 18 and 20 is only in your head. I'd bet there is even evidence that shows big guys (like Ovechkin) take longer to mature than smaller guys (like Crosby).