Speculation: Sens, Lebreton, and the NCC

[Nac Mac Feegle]

seems like discussion is picking up in Calgary again on a new arena. Talks fell apart based on this cost breakdown

1/3 paid by team
1/3 paid by city
1/3 paid by ticket surcharge

with the team believing the ticket surcharge is actually already their revenue stream

it's interesting that in effect Calgary has a 1/3rd commitment from the city and talks are resuming with the team looking for more.

In Edmonton Katz got huge money from the city for that facility

How is this market different than those markets?

As sports fans, why should we not be advocating that public money help offset arena construction in this market? This is how it gets done essentially everywhere in North America

Melnyk has been pretty clear he hasn't asked for money and Watson has been pretty clear he isn't getting any.

The arena is going to cost 500 to 600 hundred. The money has to come from somewhere. Either Melnyk's pocket or financed and if financed then you'v got the interest charges.

It's interesting to me that many here say he's broke and doesn't have the money. From what I can tell from assessing our situation versus others, he's dealing with a pretty hostile environment as far as making a corporate sports investment

Technically, they're getting the cleanup costs of the land for free. For all we know, that could be worth more than the arena. Plus, CTC has been paying a discounted rate on municipal taxes from day 1. Can't ignore that.

 

[Sensung]

seems like discussion is picking up in Calgary again on a new arena. Talks fell apart based on this cost breakdown

1/3 paid by team
1/3 paid by city
1/3 paid by ticket surcharge

with the team believing the ticket surcharge is actually already their revenue stream

it's interesting that in effect Calgary has a 1/3rd commitment from the city and talks are resuming with the team looking for more.

In Edmonton Katz got huge money from the city for that facility

How is this market different than those markets?

As sports fans, why should we not be advocating that public money help offset arena construction in this market? This is how it gets done essentially everywhere in North America

Melnyk has been pretty clear he hasn't asked for money and Watson has been pretty clear he isn't getting any.

The arena is going to cost 500 to 600 hundred. The money has to come from somewhere. Either Melnyk's pocket or financed and if financed then you'v got the interest charges.

It's interesting to me that many here say he's broke and doesn't have the money. From what I can tell from assessing our situation versus others, he's dealing with a pretty hostile environment as far as making a corporate sports investment

He is...tell him to sell the team.

 

[JD1]

Technically, they're getting the cleanup costs of the land for free. For all we know, that could be worth more than the arena. Plus, CTC has been paying a discounted rate on municipal taxes from day 1. Can't ignore that.

I don't look at it that way at all

as is, the land could sell for X
remediate the soil it sells for Y

The difference here is the buying consortium has the construction ability to do the work.

it would be no different than the NCC paying Tomlinson or whoever whatever it costs to clean it up and then selling it at full price. The NCC still only gets full price minus what they paid to clean it up

 

[ottawah]

seems like discussion is picking up in Calgary again on a new arena. Talks fell apart based on this cost breakdown

1/3 paid by team
1/3 paid by city
1/3 paid by ticket surcharge

with the team believing the ticket surcharge is actually already their revenue stream

it's interesting that in effect Calgary has a 1/3rd commitment from the city and talks are resuming with the team looking for more.

In Edmonton Katz got huge money from the city for that facility

How is this market different than those markets?

As sports fans, why should we not be advocating that public money help offset arena construction in this market? This is how it gets done essentially everywhere in North America

Melnyk has been pretty clear he hasn't asked for money and Watson has been pretty clear he isn't getting any.

The arena is going to cost 500 to 600 hundred. The money has to come from somewhere. Either Melnyk's pocket or financed and if financed then you'v got the interest charges.

It's interesting to me that many here say he's broke and doesn't have the money. From what I can tell from assessing our situation versus others, he's dealing with a pretty hostile environment as far as making a corporate sports investment

Well the issue is, following the edmonton model, is the city will be paying 2/3 and the owner 1/3, with the city recouping 1/2 of what they put in (1/3 of total cost) on a ticket surcharge, effectively an interest free loan.

The Edmonton model saw the team put up 4%, the city put up 96%, and the city made most of their money back voa 25 years of ticket surcharges, rent etc. But the city obviously has a cost of effectively providing a 25 year interest free loan to the team. That will costs hundreds of millions.

That is a large reason why the Calgary deal failed, the city was not willing to front that kind of deal. And Watson has made it very clear here there will be no city money for this development or soil cleanup. The city will cover the standard stuff it does for anyone, sewer connections, public roads, etc. With the cities eye on LRT for the next 10 years and those associated billions, its not likely they will front any huge amount for this deal to the extent Edmonton did.

 

[JD1]

Well the issue is, following the edmonton model, is the city will be paying 2/3 and the owner 1/3, with the city recouping 1/2 of what they put in (1/3 of total cost) on a ticket surcharge, effectively an interest free loan.

The Edmonton model saw the team put up 4%, the city put up 96%, and the city made most of their money back voa 25 years of ticket surcharges, rent etc. But the city obviously has a cost of effectively providing a 25 year interest free loan to the team. That will costs hundreds of millions.

That is a large reason why the Calgary deal failed, the city was not willing to front that kind of deal. And Watson has made it very clear here there will be no city money for this development or soil cleanup. The city will cover the standard stuff it does for anyone, sewer connections, public roads, etc. With the cities eye on LRT for the next 10 years and those associated billions, its not likely they will front any huge amount for this deal to the extent Edmonton did.

for sure the city isn't going to front cash. but they sure stand to make a total windfall on taxes once all those condo units are built.

 

[ottawah]

for sure the city isn't going to front cash. but they sure stand to make a total windfall on taxes once all those condo units are built.

I cant see much of a windfall. If these get built, then its condos/houses someplace else that do not get built. Build is for demand, and thats not changing.

But in any case the Cities operating budget is 3.4B. They are building 4000 condo units. I think 25% have to be for low income housing likely to generate far less tax revenue but even putting that aside. If the average tax bill is say 5K per unit that totals 20M dollars, or roughly .5% addition to the cities coffers. Not exactly a windfall.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Ottawa city hall needs to get off their butts and focus more efforts on recruiting more businesses to come to Ottawa. We have a really solid, safe economy, one of the highest educated work forces in the country, direct access to both Toronto and NYC markets, and the added perk of direct political influence (if you don't mind the lobbying game). It's insane that we don't have more corporations setting up shop here. And there's still a ton of land east, west and south of the city core.

More (good) jobs = more people = more taxes = bigger potential customer base for the Sens

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

That is a large reason why the Calgary deal failed, the city was not willing to front that kind of deal. And Watson has made it very clear here there will be no city money for this development or soil cleanup. The city will cover the standard stuff it does for anyone, sewer connections, public roads, etc. With the cities eye on LRT for the next 10 years and those associated billions, its not likely they will front any huge amount for this deal to the extent Edmonton did.

Don't think that the City had any responsibility for Soil remediation to begin with.

Although someone, a few months ago mentioned they may have a program, that was used when the new War Museum was built, that subsidized the soil remediation between the two levels of Government.

But is this case, between the RLG and the NCC, it's stricly between these two parties, as far as I've been able to learn.

There is only one taxpayer though.

 

[JD1]

I cant see much of a windfall. If these get built, then its condos/houses someplace else that do not get built. Build is for demand, and thats not changing.

But in any case the Cities operating budget is 3.4B. They are building 4000 condo units. I think 25% have to be for low income housing likely to generate far less tax revenue but even putting that aside. If the average tax bill is say 5K per unit that totals 20M dollars, or roughly .5% addition to the cities coffers. Not exactly a windfall.

it isn't just property. There are also plans for significant office accommodation and the city stands to earn taxes on everything as each stage is incrementally developed

 

[topshelf15]

Ottawa city hall needs to get off their butts and focus more efforts on recruiting more businesses to come to Ottawa. We have a really solid, safe economy, one of the highest educated work forces in the country, direct access to both Toronto and NYC markets, and the added perk of direct political influence (if you don't mind the lobbying game). It's insane that we don't have more corporations setting up shop here. And there's still a ton of land east, west and south of the city core.

More (good) jobs = more people = more taxes = bigger potential customer base for the Sens

Nobody wants to do buisness in Canada,more specifically Ontario....This province is screwed,the Liberals promised the moon to everyone...And have just overburdened everyone with more debt

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Nobody wants to do buisness in Canada,more specifically Ontario....This province is screwed,the Liberals promised the moon to everyone...And have just overburdened everyone with more debt

Agreed there! Ontario is losing companies and opportunities, largely based on hydro one costs. Many are setting up shop or moving to Québec or the States. Much cheaper in electricity costs.

 

[Wondercarrot]

for sure the city isn't going to front cash. but they sure stand to make a total windfall on taxes once all those condo units are built.

as do the developers who are building all those condo units.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Nah. Public sector workers make less than their private sector counterparts. That extra cash in hand is exchanged for (usually) slightly more job security and a better (again, usually) retirement package.

Slightly more job security?

A public sector worker has the might of their union behind them, and they would pretty much have to murder someone, on the job, in order to be fired from the Federal public service.

In 2013, 3.6% of Canadians employed in the private sector experienced job loss compared to only 0.7% of those employed in the public sector.


There is no better Pension Plan, that I know of, than the Federal Public Service Pension plan. Perhaps the Ontario teachers pension plan is on par with the Federal Public Service Pension plan....... and the benefits package that come with working for the Federal Public Service is the gold standard (in Ottawa) and nothing in the Private sector comes close to it. The Public Service Pension plan is one of the few remaining defined benefits pension plans in all of North American ..... and the move to the Defined contribution pension plans, started decades ago, and defined benefits pension plans are unavailable in the private sector as far as I know.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/the-p...etter-pay-pensions-and-job-security-1.1225327


https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sit...and-private-sector-compensation-in-canada.pdf

 

[harrisb]

Slightly more job security?

A public sector worker has the might of their union behind them, and they would pretty much have to murder someone, on the job, in order to be fired from the Federal public service.

In 2013, 3.6% of Canadians employed in the private sector experienced job loss compared to only 0.7% of those employed in the public sector.


There is no better Pension Plan, that I know of, than the Federal Public Service Pension plan. Perhaps the Ontario teachers pension plan is on par with the Federal Public Service Pension plan....... and the benefits package that come with working for the Federal Public Service is the gold standard (in Ottawa) and nothing in the Private sector comes close to it. The Public Service Pension plan is one of the few remaining defined benefits pension plans in all of North American ..... and the move to the Defined contribution pension plans, started decades ago, and defined benefits pension plans are unavailable in the private sector as far as I know.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/the-p...etter-pay-pensions-and-job-security-1.1225327


https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sit...and-private-sector-compensation-in-canada.pdf

OMG I agree with Count on something, I need to go drink myself into a coma

 

[Smash88]

Slightly more job security?

A public sector worker has the might of their union behind them, and they would pretty much have to murder someone, on the job, in order to be fired from the Federal public service.

In 2013, 3.6% of Canadians employed in the private sector experienced job loss compared to only 0.7% of those employed in the public sector.


There is no better Pension Plan, that I know of, than the Federal Public Service Pension plan. Perhaps the Ontario teachers pension plan is on par with the Federal Public Service Pension plan....... and the benefits package that come with working for the Federal Public Service is the gold standard (in Ottawa) and nothing in the Private sector comes close to it. The Public Service Pension plan is one of the few remaining defined benefits pension plans in all of North American ..... and the move to the Defined contribution pension plans, started decades ago, and defined benefits pension plans are unavailable in the private sector as far as I know.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/the-p...etter-pay-pensions-and-job-security-1.1225327


https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sit...and-private-sector-compensation-in-canada.pdf

There are a lot of assumptions and opinions in those links you provided.

It is generally accepted that entry level positions are where the public has it better than the private, once you start moving up the ranks however, the private blows the public salaries and perks out of the water.

We will never know true numbers, since you will never get straight numbers, it's all assumptions.

 

[Micklebot]

The Public Service Pension plan is one of the few remaining defined benefits pension plans in all of North American .....

The link you provided (Table 5 of fraser institute one) had a table indicating that 47% of private sector registered pension plans were defined benefit plans.

 

[BonkTastic]

for sure the city isn't going to front cash. but they sure stand to make a total windfall on taxes once all those condo units are built.

City doesn't front cash for other condos. It's not like there's a precedent here as it relates to "condo tax dollars".

The thing is, if the Sens don't develop that land, someone will. The city is under no obligation or stress to do anything.

Also - municipal governments don't "make windfalls" of profit when collecting tax. That's not really how taxes work in Canada. People pay tax, and get services based on that tax. Condos are not a license to print money for the municipal government - for every new tax payer in those buildings, the city has to offer appropriate services in exchange for those tax dollars.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

There are a lot of assumptions and opinions in those links you provided.

It is generally accepted that entry level positions are where the public has it better than the private, once you start moving up the ranks however, the private blows the public salaries and perks out of the water.

We will never know true numbers, since you will never get straight numbers, it's all assumptions.

When you include job security and the respective pension plan and benefits packages....... the Public Sector job is the better of the two.

 

[Knave]

When you include job security and the respective pension plan and benefits packages....... the Public Sector job is the better of the two.

If you work for a small firm? Yeah. If you work for a big firm you're making hundreds of thousands of dollars... like 500,000 to 600,000 compared to the peak of federal government where you're looking more at ~200,000. The retirement package (which the public servants do pay into) doesn't even come close to touching that kind of earning.

Or are you suggesting we just vote in people who will cut those benefits, lower those salaries and still somehow compete with the private sector?

Personally I want some competent people in government.

I've watched competent people jump to banks and law firms after years in government. I'm not sure how bashing public servants as a group and demanding they be paid less is going to help make government smaller or more efficient. Certainly more wasteful... I guess some people love government waste and just want more and more.

Also FYI - never worked a government job in my life. Not even through FSWEP. I work in the private sector.

I'm not interested in political games here. You have to offer an attractive package to get competent people. That's a simple fact. If government can't compete on salary, benefits or retirement package... they're not going to get competent people.

The package offered by the feds in the past has been simple: we can't compete with the big firms on salary but we will offer you a better work-life balance and a retirement package that you pay into which is guaranteed.

 

[Smash88]

When you include job security and the respective pension plan and benefits packages....... the Public Sector job is the better of the two.

Assumptions and opinion.

There are no catch all numbers that can say which one is better or not. They each have different aspects that make them better and worse.

Heck, we don't even know the private sector numbers, they aren't reported. It's all just best guesses.

 

[Micklebot]

So, unless you're going to directly tie it in to lebreton, this isn't really the place to debate PS vs private. Let's get back on topic.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I prefer the PS4

 

[JD1]

City doesn't front cash for other condos. It's not like there's a precedent here as it relates to "condo tax dollars".

The thing is, if the Sens don't develop that land, someone will. The city is under no obligation or stress to do anything.

Also - municipal governments don't "make windfalls" of profit when collecting tax. That's not really how taxes work in Canada. People pay tax, and get services based on that tax. Condos are not a license to print money for the municipal government - for every new tax payer in those buildings, the city has to offer appropriate services in exchange for those tax dollars.

that post was a while back. can't remember the specifics

munipalities all over North America cut deals for sports infrastructure investment. Ottawa won't. I'm guessing but of the 200 largest municipalities in North America that ottawa stands in a crowd of less than 5 similar munipalities that won't invest in sports infrastructure

can't sell season tickets because the biggest game in town won't accept them. can't get any public investment because we have a long history of left leaning municipal government.

I'm pretty sure when you put those two things together you cannot find a more hostile environment in North America in which to own a pro sports team.

 

[JD1]

If you work for a small firm? Yeah. If you work for a big firm you're making hundreds of thousands of dollars... like 500,000 to 600,000 compared to the peak of federal government where you're looking more at ~200,000. The retirement package (which the public servants do pay into) doesn't even come close to touching that kind of earning.

Or are you suggesting we just vote in people who will cut those benefits, lower those salaries and still somehow compete with the private sector?

Personally I want some competent people in government.

I've watched competent people jump to banks and law firms after years in government. I'm not sure how bashing public servants as a group and demanding they be paid less is going to help make government smaller or more efficient. Certainly more wasteful... I guess some people love government waste and just want more and more.

Also FYI - never worked a government job in my life. Not even through FSWEP. I work in the private sector.

I'm not interested in political games here. You have to offer an attractive package to get competent people. That's a simple fact. If government can't compete on salary, benefits or retirement package... they're not going to get competent people.

The package offered by the feds in the past has been simple: we can't compete with the big firms on salary but we will offer you a better work-life balance and a retirement package that you pay into which is guaranteed.

every study I've read since basically the 1990s tech meltdown states that public sector comp packages exceed private sector packages at all levels except the ery top.

Google it.

 

[BonkTastic]

that post was a while back. can't remember the specifics

My bad. Been super busy with work these days, didn't see when you posted this.

... because we have a long history of left leaning municipal government.

Absolutely false.

Ottawa is one of the most conservative cities in the province. We have a consistent and predictable voting pattern that alternates between highly conservative municipal governments and highly centrist municipal governments. Even in provincial and federal elections, outside of the Ottawa Center riding, the city has voted either center or right wing for over 50 years, with very, very few exceptions.

I can't remember the last time we had a left-leaning municipal government in Ottawa. Like...Marian Dewar was defeated in 1985? We haven't had anything close to resembling a left-leaning municipal government in 33 years.

Thirty. Three. Years.