Selänne vs Francis

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Oh I put more thought into it now and here are the top 10 wingers who are purely better scorers then Selanne

1. Mike Bossy
2. Brett Hull
3. Jari Kurri
4. Jaromir Jagr
5. Luc Robitaille
6. Mike Gartner
7. Dave Andreycuk
8. Dino Ciccarelli
9. Michel Goulet
10. Alexander Mogilny

Robitaille, Gartner, Andreychuk, and Ciccarelli might be better compilers than Selanne, but they weren't better scorers (or at least better at playing in the 80s, when it was possible to compile higher numbers). Hell, Selanne has 2 fewer career goals than Ciccarelli, while spending much more of his career in a lower scoring era.

Goulet scored fewer goals than Selanne, despite playing his entire career in a high scoring era. He was also significantly worse than Selanne at playmaking.

Mogilny is so far behind Selanne, it isn't funny.

Here are 7 more wingers who are either equal or less of a goal scorer but brought more to the table especially in the playoffs

1. Brendan Shanahan
2. Mark Recchi
3. Glenn Anderson
4. Cam Neely
5. Joe Mullen
6. Trevor Linden
7. Steve Larmer

I literally laughed out loud when I saw Trevor Linden again. Literally use of the LOL jargin would be appropriate here.

I love how you say "either equal or less of a goal scorer," when they are all far behind Selanne in that regards (except for a hypothetically healthy Neely I guess).

Here are 2 wingers who have definately less offensive skill but are better then Selanne when you take into what they brought to the game and their teams

1. Adam Graves
2. Clark Gillies

I literally loled again at the mention of Adam Graves. a player who only broke 65 points once in his career.

If you want to count international and non NHL players then you can add Sergei Makarov who's best years were outsied the NHL

Absolutely

Selanne is not better then any on these players in my mind as I have seen all these players play and I would take before Selanne. Naslund and Heatley compared to Selanne depends on the day. I just feel that Markus Naslund made two average players into stars in. Morisson and Bertuzzi. Heatley as of right now it would be a tie but would still pick Heatley over Selanne.

I'm honestly wondering how much you've actually seen Selanne to make some of the outrageous claims you've been making. (Linden and Graves over Selanne? Really?)

 

[quoipourquoi]

Kovalchuk is only 27 and his scoring finishes are this:
2nd, 6th, 8th, 10th, and 11th.

I highly doubt he is now going to regress to a 60 point player for the rest of his career. Kovalchuk will end up as good if not better.

But he hasn't had a 2nd place finish in 6 years (in a league with an injured Forsberg, indifferent Jagr, no Lemieux, and pre-Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin). That's also his single goal-scoring title.

Even if we were to look at Selanne's 2001-2004 as him just laying eggs as opposed to skating on a bad leg, Kovalchuk would have to have a pretty special 5 years to get into Selanne territory (another 2nd place finish, two more top 5 finishes on top of that, two more Richards, maybe even breaking 100 points once just for the sake of it... I mean, they're hardly Dead Pucking it anymore, and Selanne still has the best post-lockout season between the two).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think the big difference between Selanne and Kovalchuk was that Selanne was a player who was pretty good at using his linemates, while Kovalchuk is awful at it.

The reason I picked Kovalchuk as a current comparable was more out of lack of anyone better. Selanne is clearly not at Ovechkin level, and... who else is there?

 

[canucks4ever]

But he hasn't had a 2nd place finish in 6 years (in a league with an injured Forsberg, indifferent Jagr, no Lemieux, and pre-Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin). That's also his single goal-scoring title.

Even if we were to look at Selanne's 2001-2004 as him just laying eggs as opposed to skating on a bad leg, Kovalchuk would have to have a pretty special 5 years to get into Selanne territory (another 2nd place finish, two more top 5 finishes on top of that, two more Richards, maybe even breaking 100 points once just for the sake of it... I mean, they're hardly Dead Pucking it anymore, and Selanne still has the best post-lockout season between the two).

You can make all the excuses you want as to how kovalchuk finished 2nd in 2004, selanne needed kariya to get both of his second place finishes. He still has years and years to further add to his resume, unless he all of a sudden declines, kovalchuk will end up better.

How does selanne have the best post lockout season when he wasn't top 10 in either of his seasons, while kovalchuk has finished 6th, 8th, 10th since the lockout? All kovalchuk needs is 3 more top 10 finishes and a few decent playoff runs and he will surpass selanne.

By the way selanne's 2nd place finish came in a season where forsberg, sakic, jagr and lindros all missed a bunch of games.

 

[MadArcand]

lolol your so focussed on top 10 dude. goals matter more than assists, and selanne has a lot of goals.

so 10 seasons in the top 15 in scoring is not consistent offense? no matter how hard you try and twist it, Selanne is very solid in the offensive department without Paul Kariya, you're kidding yourself if you don't think he would have put up similar numbers if he had never played with Paul once!

hell, he might have posted insane numbers had he played for one of the many teams that were WAY better than the 1990's ducks. Selanne rules, stop hating on him.

Imagine if Selanne had the chance to play with Francis! would have been magical if kariya was on the same line!

Man, I don't hate Selanne. He's a great player, I just think that Francis was simply better when everything is taken together.

The fact that I recently saw so many people rate the atrocious 07 Ducks as best post-lockout team probably didn't help my mood, though.

 

[seventieslord]

That's a troll esque list right there.

Absolutely. I LOL'ed, literally.

Now that I continued to play with that player season finder I noticed Selanne's "second prime" post lockout is quite impressive as well. This doesn't relate too much to Francis anymore but I hope you'll forgive me, I got a bit carried away with that site.

Ahead of Selanne in goals per game are only Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Gaborik, Heatley and Semin, all of whom are at least ten years his younger. This is quite impressive as goalscorers generally tend to decline after 30.

Last season gpg for Selanne was exactly the same, 0.5, as it has been averaging from 2005. Furthermore, Selanne also had least icetime per game than any of the above "young gun".

Other than that I was curious to see how effective these players are and calculated the time required per goal (average from 2005-2010).

Ovechkin = 32.66 minutes per goal
Gaborik = 33.96 "
Selanne = 34.75
Semin = 36.75
Kovalchuk = 37.42
Heatley = 37.94

If I had these correctly, Selanne ranks quite high, even if he is currently used mostly as a powerplay weapon (which definitely helps him against "regular" first line players).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

First, you are right that Selanne has been a PP specialist since the lockout, and this should be brought up. I think a lot of focus has been placed in this thread on how "good" Selanne has been since the lockout, but he has been a one-dimensional PP specialist playing sheltered minutes with good PP time. Among the top-100 goalscorers since the lockout, he easily has the highest percentage of his goals on the PP - 52%.

here are the leaders among the top-25:

Selanne - 52%
Cammalleri - 44%
Vanek - 44%
Malkin - 42%
Staal - 40%
Heatley - 39%
Gionta - 39%
Marleau - 38%
D.Sedin - 38%
Kovalchuk - 37%
Iginla - 34%

Note that Selanne is as far ahead of Cammalleri as Camalleri is ahead of Kovalchuk on this list.

Selanne is 18th in goals since the lockout, but 53rd in even strength goals.

At even strength, he has been given sheltered minutes while guys like Getzlaf take the best checkers.

 

[vulture77]

At even strength, he has been given sheltered minutes while guys like Getzlaf take the best checkers.

Definitely and I guess proves you can manipulate certain stats to look them more impressive, especially the icetime if a player gets most powerplay time relative to even strenght play.

To my defence I didn't pay much thought to it and I think all players I listed probably get as much powerplay minutes as they can play, which still leaves the goals per game. Being 6th overall for 5 years as 35-40 years old is quite impressive and I think one can say it's good, not "good"!

 

[quoipourquoi]

You can make all the excuses you want as to how kovalchuk finished 2nd in 2004, selanne needed kariya to get both of his second place finishes. He still has years and years to further add to his resume, unless he all of a sudden declines, kovalchuk will end up better.

How does selanne have the best post lockout season when he wasn't top 10 in either of his seasons, while kovalchuk has finished 6th, 8th, 10th since the lockout? All kovalchuk needs is 3 more top 10 finishes and a few decent playoff runs and he will surpass selanne.

By the way selanne's 2nd place finish came in a season where forsberg, sakic, jagr and lindros all missed a bunch of games.

Yeah... so did Selanne's linemate Paul Kariya, and Selanne still finished second to Mario Lemieux. And then Selanne followed up on that season by being third in points-per-game (behind Jagr and Forsberg) on the Kariya-less Mighty Ducks after missing several games himself, and then second in both points and points-per-game once Kariya returned the next season.

Selanne's gap on third place was 10 points in 1997 and 6 points in 1999. Kovalchuk was tied for 2nd with Joe Sakic, barely above 4th and 5th, and ultimately 7th in points-per-game- and that's his best season.

Points per Game
Kovalchuk: 6, 7, 7
Selanne: 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 8


As for Selanne having a better post-lockout season: 2006-07. He barely finished outside the top ten (#11) in a close grouping, was a factor in the goal scoring race (that he led at the All-Star break), and was the #1 forward on the best team. And if you believe in adjusted points, it is statistically better than each of Kovalchuk's PL seasons, too. Either way, I don't see how 5 more years of borderline top ten hockey is going to make Kovalchuk's argument against Selanne when his peak was so far below Selanne's and one season instead of three- especially when he doesn't have the same early career success to fall back upon that Selanne has.

 

[canucks4ever]

Yeah... so did Selanne's linemate Paul Kariya, and Selanne still finished second to Mario Lemieux. And then Selanne followed up on that season by being third in points-per-game (behind Jagr and Forsberg) on the Kariya-less Mighty Ducks after missing several games himself, and then second in both points and points-per-game once Kariya returned the next season.

Selanne's gap on third place was 10 points in 1997 and 6 points in 1999. Kovalchuk was tied for 2nd with Joe Sakic, barely above 4th and 5th, and ultimately 7th in points-per-game- and that's his best season.

Points per Game
Kovalchuk: 6, 7, 7
Selanne: 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 8


As for Selanne having a better post-lockout season: 2006-07. He barely finished outside the top ten (#11) in a close grouping, was a factor in the goal scoring race (that he led at the All-Star break), and was the #1 forward on the best team. And if you believe in adjusted points, it is statistically better than each of Kovalchuk's PL seasons, too. Either way, I don't see how 5 more years of borderline top ten hockey is going to make Kovalchuk's argument against Selanne when his peak was so far below Selanne's and one season instead of three- especially when he doesn't have the same early career success to fall back upon that Selanne has.

No, Kovalchuk's 2009 season is better, he finished 6th in scoring, nothing you will say will change that.

By the way, what were selanne's credentials by the time he was 27, yeah below Kovalchuk's. Ilya has plenty of time to surpass Teemu, quit being so closed minded about it. Kovalchuk has more talent. Joe Thornton and Ilya will both have better careers, thornton has already outpeaked selanne.

Your comparing the career accomplishments of Selanne to Kovalchuk's accomplishments at the age of 27, just sad.

By the way, point per game dont mean nothing, your actual finish in the scoring race is what matters, i dont give credit for 'coulda woulda shoulda".

Selanne by age 27: scoring finishes
2nd, 5th, 7th, 20th

Kovalchuk by age 27:
2nd, 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 32nd, 35th

 

[vulture77]

By the way, point per game dont mean nothing, your actual finish in the scoring race is what matters, i dont give credit for 'coulda woulda shoulda".

Or...

By the way selanne's 2nd place finish came in a season where forsberg, sakic, jagr and lindros all missed a bunch of games.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Definitely and I guess proves you can manipulate certain stats to look them more impressive, especially the icetime if a player gets most powerplay time relative to even strenght play.

To my defence I didn't pay much thought to it and I think all players I listed probably get as much powerplay minutes as they can play, which still leaves the goals per game. Being 6th overall for 5 years as 35-40 years old is quite impressive and I think one can say it's good, not "good"!

He isn't getting the most PP time. He's just the most effective.

Last season:

Kovalchuk ATL: 5:34 NJD: 4:50
Ovechkin 5:02
Crosby 4:56
Stamkos 4:33
Gaborik 3:43
Selanne 3:38
Marleau 3:24
Heatley 3:22

PP time per PP goal:

Selanne 15min
Heatley 15min
Stamkos 17min
Gaborik 20min
Marleau 23min
Ovechkin 27min
Crosby 30min
Kovalchuk 33min

He's still one of the best (or the best) PP players in the league, but I agree that his EV game has regressed.

 

[canucks4ever]

Or...

Yeah the read the post, i brought that up because he started making excuses as to how kovalchuk finished second in 2004.

 

[vulture77]

Yeah the read the post, i brought that up because he started making excuses as to how kovalchuk finished second in 2004.

True, it's a bit confusing that people use the same arguments to disparge other player that could as well be used against player they are defending. Not meaning just you, I guess I'm as guilty in these threads to it as well.

Anyways as both Kovalchuk and Selanne are both slight step below the absolute best of their respective era's top, I would say it takes some favourable circumstances and near career year for either of them to reach top-3 finishes.

Overall I would so far say Selanne was likely a bit closer with his finish in 98-99 as he was the one who missed games, top players of that time played more, and he still managed to get the second place finish.

Kovalchuk however still has time to equal that. I would think the supporting cast in NJ is now about as good as he'll get (not sure how the contract is coming up though), especially compared to Atlanta.

 

[Seanconn*]

No, Kovalchuk's 2009 season is better, he finished 6th in scoring, nothing you will say will change that.
hing, your actual finish in the scoring race is what matters, i dont give credit for 'coulda woulda shoulda".

Selanne by age 27: scoring finishes
2nd, 5th, 7th, 20th

Kovalchuk by age 27:
2nd, 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 32nd, 35th

uuggggh, Selanne was like 22 his rookie season? Kovalchuk was 19/20? bad comparrison dude.


that said, I think Kovalchuk and Selanne are very similar players. but I think Selanne has played with better players than Kovalchuk.. but not by far. KOvy and HEatley could have been very comparable to Selanne and KAriya had they stuck together... both players have had to play on lower level teams.

which for the most part has been beneficial to their stats maybe... being the best players on their team-- not any more for kovalchuk if he joins the DEvils... and the Ducks are a lllllot better now than in the 90's

I'm a giant selanne fanboy, and i think the kovalchuk comparison is very fair

 

[quoipourquoi]

uuggggh, Selanne was like 22 his rookie season? Kovalchuk was 19/20? bad comparrison dude.

Kovalchuk was 18, which means ushvinder expects me to spot him 4 seasons and compare based upon either absolute finishes in the standings or point-per-game finishes... whichever fits his argument at the time...


I guess Selanne's 1997 and 1999 were better than Yzerman's 1989, ushvinder. Cool. I'll be sure to bring that one to the table at the next HOH 100.

 

[QnebO]

Selanne also hasn't shown any consistent top-10 offense without Kariya. And Francis carried weak Canes to Cup finals. Selanne never carried anything, and on average played on better teams anyway.

Ah.. what? Wasnt it Kariya who didint show up after they seperated with Selanne? Who is again over points per game, or who has been doing good in couple of earlier seasons, with weak ducks second line without koivu? Tip for the question: Its not kariya and its one of those two. And, Selanne was the one carrying Jets to the playoffs... and the mighty ducks. Mighty ducks were like caps in ovechkins rookie seaon.. other good players too, but it was all about ovechkin for real.

Selanne was best scorer of anaheim in 07 cup season with 94points and leading player. Selanne was allways the leading forward in hes career untill the colorado trip and knee injury, wich he really got back from as late as 06.

Im sorry but i just dont see how you even can see it that way.. Ofcourse you're going to ignore this because im finn, you've done it earlier.. But how wasnt Selanne a leading player, they were the god damn dynamic duo with kariya and they two were the ONLY reasons ducks were fighting of a playoff spot. Scoring 100point seasons is not carrying a team for you? Just for you to know, its good to respect role players and tough workers, but being a leading forward IS a needed role in a team. You wont win with team full of working men just watch Finnish national team, they allmost win but then we lack a top end leading forward. You need to have those key guys, guys like that actually sometimes feel underrated when they usually are not so good all around and defensively, but the top guns are the top guns, most of their potential is offensive. That kind of guys ain't actually bad for team allways.. Finland would give like anything for a Dany Heatley. He aint working so much, but he needs to have hes respect. The team that has guys like him just has to have good 2way man in hes line like Teemu plays with Koivu.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Selanne by a wide margin

 

[MadArcand]

Ah.. what? Wasnt it Kariya who didint show up after they seperated with Selanne? Who is again over points per game, or who has been doing good in couple of earlier seasons, with weak ducks second line without koivu? Tip for the question: Its not kariya and its one of those two. And, Selanne was the one carrying Jets to the playoffs... and the mighty ducks. Mighty ducks were like caps in ovechkins rookie seaon.. other good players too, but it was all about ovechkin for real.

Obviously I was talking about playoffs. And the single time Selanne went to the finals, he wasn't carrying the team - he was behind Niedermayer, Pronger, Giguere, Getzlaf and Pahlsson, at least.

 

[Merya]

Selänne might be a PP specialist nowadays, but he is one of the best PP players in the league at the ripe age of 39-40.
Last season Ducks PP conversion was ~25% with Selänne. In contrast it was slightly above 10% without Selänne (when he was injured). It was discussed in the Ducks board quite a bit. To me, that's a pretty astonishing difference made by one old guy. I think most teams in the league would rather like to have him in their lineup, I can't think of many teams that would get worse by switching their second line RW for Selänne.

Ps. People like to think of intangibles. Here's one for you. Selänne being in the roster in 05-06 and 06-07 playoffs gave a lot more room for other players in the team, as Selänne was often the main target for opposition guarding. That's one reason the kidline was very succesful in 07 and also for AndyMac getting more and better opportunities.

 

[seventieslord]

Selänne might be a PP specialist nowadays, but he is one of the best PP players in the league at the ripe age of 39-40.
Last season Ducks PP conversion was ~25% with Selänne. In contrast it was slightly above 10% without Selänne (when he was injured). It was discussed in the Ducks board quite a bit. To me, that's a pretty astonishing difference made by one old guy. I think most teams in the league would rather like to have him in their lineup, I can't think of many teams that would get worse by switching their second line RW for Selänne.

Ps. People like to think of intangibles. Here's one for you. Selänne being in the roster in 05-06 and 06-07 playoffs gave a lot more room for other players in the team, as Selänne was often the main target for opposition guarding. That's one reason the kidline was very succesful in 07 and also for AndyMac getting more and better opportunities.

Are you sure about that? Selanne has had pretty good stats but has not been a major factor at ES since the lockout and has received 2nd line minutes. What I've heard more often is that he's been kept from the opposition's best checkers. Which is the opposite of what you're saying.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Are you sure about that? Selanne has had pretty good stats but has not been a major factor at ES since the lockout and has received 2nd line minutes. What I've heard more often is that he's been kept from the opposition's best checkers. Which is the opposite of what you're saying.

Who would have they tried to shutdown other than Selanne on 05-06 or 06-07 Ducks? Alltho he wasn't the Selanne of his prime, he was still their best ES player. His PP production especially suffered since teams focused on him in the playoffs more than they did in the regular season.

 

[Merya]

Are you sure about that? Selanne has had pretty good stats but has not been a major factor at ES since the lockout and has received 2nd line minutes. What I've heard more often is that he's been kept from the opposition's best checkers. Which is the opposite of what you're saying.

Yes I'm sure, Selänne and AndyMac were the 1st line till the cup win. Perhaps Selänne wasn't in the first line at start of the 05-06 season, but he pretty fast climbed up there.
Remember the kidline wasn't that great until spring 07.
Dunno about ES vs. PP, but from 05 till 07, Selänne was number 1 in Ducks points. I think, but not sure, that in those two seasons Selänne was also a force at ES.
In a way he's still a force in ES, as he needs more guarding than your regular winger. Because if you give him even a little room, he'll score quite often. Opponents can neutralize him at ES, but it still gives others in his line more opportunities.

Selänne will obviously not leave the ducks even at the miniscule chance he'll play another season. But on the wing of someone like Thornton, he could still score over 50 goals. He still has fast acceleration on the first few pushes, he has heart. (people who disparage his 07 PO points seem to miss the memory of what he looked like after few strikes to the face ) And he's technically the best pure sniper in NHL currently, just his age is starting to show.

ps. Since I have followed Teemu's career since he entered my Jokerit team as a junior, yes I have watched him play really alot. Especially after his amazing comeback. (And it is amazing, not even Gordie Howe racked two consecutive 40+ goal seasons at that age.)

And to finish my ode for Teemu, he is one of the most accessible and promotable players in the NHL, doing tons of charity work, always having time for the kids, and being the one and only franchise player of the Ducks. He is very good for PR and the owners' wallet.

25 Teemu Selanne ANA R 23 8 16 24 -1 14 5 0 0 0 61 13.1 17:25 21.6 45.8

 

[jepjepjoo]

Dunno about ES vs. PP, but from 05 till 07, Selänne was number 1 in Ducks points. I think, but not sure, that in those two seasons Selänne was also a force at ES.
In a way he's still a force in ES, as he needs more guarding than your regular winger.

He was first in ES points and goals on the Ducks both 05-06 and 06-07.

This season ES points:

Ryan 26gp 18pts
Getzlaf 26gp 17pts
Perry 26gp 17pts
Selanne 23gp 13pts
Koivu 26gp 8pts
Blake 25gp 8pts

Not bad. Actually Selanne is the most effective ESTOI/point along with Ryan with 24min per ES point.