Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

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Gurglesons

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Highest percentage of offensive zone starts comes nowhere near to explaining his GA stat.

And do you mean plateaued, or are you using platooned to suggest he's a leech? Either way... he's nowhere near done developing, not at his age and when his physical development has been so slowed. He's defensively aware enough to be a regular leader in GA, offensively skilled enough to have 7 in 18 and 8 in 25 when it matters (this playoffs were the first time he's dropped below 0.3ppg), and in a world where Kulikov, Brendan Smith and Karl Alzner all demand 4m+ in free agency, he really is not too expensive for what he is to us.

I would sell Maatta for a player like Edler or package him and Rust for Brodin. I want a player that actually fits our system. I don’t care if he is defensively aware. He doesn’t fit.

And yeah, I meant plateaued. Autocorrect.
 
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SEALBound

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Is there anything new from JR here or is it the same stuff he has been saying?


Depth, eh? We need depth? Of course we need depth. We need a dozen guys doing a combination of things. Off the top of my head, I'd say you're looking at a Boeski, a Jim Brown, a Miss Daisy, two Jethros and a Leon Spinks, not to mention the biggest Ella Fitzgerald ever.

Let's say that the Penguins offered Rust for Domi because they want another winger like Domi, as in a skilled top-6 LWer to play with Malkin or Crosby. If the Penguins are still looking to make that kind of move, what other LWers would you be targeting with using Rust as the centerpiece?

Tough bid to find a LW that's available to trade Rust for when you can just keep Rust and probably be okay.

Here's a list though of maybes:

  • Athanasiou
  • Svechnikov
  • Mantha
  • Nino (would require a nice plus)
  • Pearson
  • Toffoli (also a need a plus)
  • Crouse (may not be a productive move)
  • Kucherov (but he's listed as a RW so it probably won't work)
  • Nick Ritchie (see Crouse)
  • Ho-Sang or Beauvillier (if they are looking for a more complete play not unlike what we'd do with a Kessel trade - scorer for balance)
  • Virtanen (someone I would REALLY be after)
  • Kapanen?
  • Kreider (if we pony up something of value...)
  • Namestnikov (is a maybe...he lit it up with Kuch and Stammer. Put him with Jake and Sid...or Geno Kessel and you may get something)
  • If Carolina gets a center, TT or Lindholm?

Part of Rust's value could be that he should get a 3-4yr x $3mil deal. If you have a cash strapped team, swapping Rust for a $5mil guy could work if someone needs to be moved.
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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For AA, I'd probably take the chance.

Isn't he meant to be defensively suspect? Meh. Pass.

Tbh, I don't want any part of "Trade our best all round winger for another defensively suspect all skill guy". We have too many of them. We are too easy to defend in certain situations, too easy to attack against too.

Trade Rust for Sobotka. Or find the add that makes LA do Pearson. Grab a guy with some grit, some defence, some ability around the net... anything other than just nice hands and pace.

Too expensive? No, I don't think so. But he is expensive, and when he's not an 'ideal' fit, and due to his poor skating likely isn't going to move up in the lineup all that much... that makes his 4m price tag an easy target for improvement.

Maatta was, last the stats were posted, our best dman for zone exits + entries combined. Where are we going to find a dman that brings that to this team for 4m that we can afford in trade - as well as decent offensive production, good defending and the rest of it?

I would sell Maatta for a player like Edler or package him and Rust for Brodin. I want a player that actually fits our system. I don’t care if he is defensively aware. He doesn’t fit.

And yeah, I meant plateaued. Autocorrect.

Our GM and the stats appear to disagree hard.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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May 28, 2006
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Because Hamilton is a better player than Letang right now and if they are moving Hamilton it is for forward help.

Letang still outproduced Hamilton in a down year, and he has winning experience which Calgary has virtually none of. Hamilton's name is also being thrown around quite a bit in rumours. I don't think their respective values are as far apart as you think.

In regards to Minnie, I think it was way more likely they trade Staal while his value is hot. They aren’t a bubble team, they are old and their younger players are not good enough.

The Wild made the playoffs but were ousted in 5 games. That's pretty much the definition of a bubble team.

They might move Staal, but they also might want to give it a go. Most of their core players are in the age range where they either better start going for it or having a firesale.

But whatever you think of the possibility of these deals, they're the sorts of returns I think we should be looking at for Letang...take a hit on talent and production for the sake of more stable but less dynamic RH PMDs.
 

The Old Master

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Trade Rust for Sobotka. Or find the add that makes LA do Pearson. Grab a guy with some grit, some defence, some ability around the net... anything other than just nice hands and pace.
.
if we are trying to trade 2 guys that are alike.....why trade? or why would the other team make the trade?
 
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Peat

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Different D-men resulted in Stanley Cups. Just saying. Other D-men were able to spell and round out the top 6 meaning they all could play in any situation.

Ruh and Hunwick accounted for -0- these playoffs, just as Ruh did last year. There was -0- depth at actually moving that puck up.

Maatta wasn't much better. The top 4 were over taxed.

That's a depth issue, not a top 4 issue, and there was plenty of complaining about lots of the dmen.

Also, while there were some glaring errors, shot suppression was generally strong. We conceded less goals to Washington than anyone else despite the 2nd worst save percentage.
 

JackFr

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Jun 18, 2010
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Tough bid to find a LW that's available to trade Rust for when you can just keep Rust and probably be okay.

Here's a list though of maybes:
  • Athanasiou (Interesting but the contract thing worries me)
  • Svechnikov (Wouldn't trade Rust for a maybe)
  • Mantha (Wings would not accept that)
  • Nino (Would take more)
  • Pearson (Possibly)
  • Toffoli (Scoring RW, doesn't make sense)
  • Crouse (Hell no)
  • Kucherov (Uh good luck there)
  • Nick Ritchie (Hell no)
  • Ho-Sang or Beauvillier (No on Ho-Sang, Isles wouldn't move Beau)
  • Virtanen (Hell no)
  • Kapanen (Rust is straight up better and Kap is a RW)
  • Kreider (Not gonna happen)
  • Namestnikov (Eh not too into that)
  • If Carolina gets a center, TT or Lindholm? (Canes would not trade TT, not too into Lindholm)

We really shouldn't be undervaluing Rust here. He's really really good and should not under any circumstance be cast away for anything but a sure thing. He is also basically our team identity - fast, hardworking, clutch, etc. In my mind keeping Rust is on the same level as keeping Hornqvist. The only problem with Rust is that he plays RW primarily but I'm perfectly fine having him as a superb 3rd liner who can step up.
 

Coach Travis

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I can't imagine we're trading Brassard for Patches even up, even if Montreal retains on him. There's plenty of sufficient LW options for us, I don't see many 2C options for Montreal.
Well if you're thinking about the UFA market, I don't think any of those guys are willing to take a 1-year deal. I don't think we're shallow on the wings but certainly, losing Brassard would take us from being incredibly deep at Centre to arguably having a hole. Pacioretty is a big fish though. A big big fish.
 

T1K

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Jul 23, 2013
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A 1st round pick.

Doubt the cost would be that high since the ask was a good prospect+1st, no?

Ultimately though, Skinner provides to be another skilled LW option that can create offense by himself- which is what we need more of. Not saying I’d necessarily do Rust+1st, but I would be willing to pay up to get him. Perhaps Hagelin+1st is more in line with what would be considered fair value?
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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Rust for Sobotka isn't a move I'd want to make. If I'm trading Rust for a similar LWer, I either want a literal Rust clone, someone cheaper than Rust or someone younger than Rust.
 
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Andy99

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Jun 26, 2017
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Reading between the lines of these 3 points:

1. Sprong and ZAR will both be on the team next year
2. The Penguins wanting to improve their balance and depth
3. Yohe not mentioning Rust as a prominent RFA

That makes me think Rust is going to be used as a trade chip for a LW, and the Domi idea wasn't just JR really wanting Domi. You can read "balance" as either RW/LW balance or scoring/grinding balance, and I think either would fit with Rust. Rust for Domi fits both of those.

His comment, or lack thereof, on Rust may be a negotiating jab to his agent...I wouldn’t necessarily presume it’s meaningful....
 

Ugene Magic

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Oct 17, 2008
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That's a depth issue, not a top 4 issue, and there was plenty of complaining about lots of the dmen.

Also, while there were some glaring errors, shot suppression was generally strong. We conceded less goals to Washington than anyone else despite the 2nd worst save percentage.

That's my point. The depth wasn't there. The 3rd pairing wasn't pulling it's weight, though Maatta and Letang were both burn't and made a lot of mistakes.

My end synopsis is that they thought they had to do more and made a lot of poor judgment calls due to the depth issues. They couldn't be more right. They had to do more because they always seemed like they were playing from behind, they were.
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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JR wants depth? Well, if you combine that with Kessel not being happy playing without 71, I would think the obvious is Phil’s a goner.

Personally, I’d nuke the defense. Restructure it with skating in mind.
 

SouthGeorge

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May 2, 2018
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Instead of a snide, glib remark, maybe say what you disagree with and why :teach:

Kessel has put up almost 200 points in the last two years including playoffs. Only been here 3 years and his 2nd best year, Pacioretty has never put up that many points in 10 years.
 

Riptide

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I would sell Maatta for a player like Edler or package him and Rust for Brodin. I want a player that actually fits our system. I don’t care if he is defensively aware. He doesn’t fit.

And yeah, I meant plateaued. Autocorrect.

Unless something else fairly significant is coming back with Maatta and Rust, there's not a chance in hell that I'd move Maatta+Rust for Brodin - there's just not enough of an upgrade there. If we're that focused on finding someone who's a better fit, just pay the penalty (as it were) and move Maatta for an older D who fits in better. Maatta for Gogo or Maatta for Scandella - something like that.
 

Riptide

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Trade Rust for Sobotka. Or find the add that makes LA do Pearson. Grab a guy with some grit, some defence, some ability around the net... anything other than just nice hands and pace.

That's one I'd be really tempted to do. He could also play C (3/4) and give us the ability to move Brassard to the wing. The issue then (when trying to draw up a roster) is I'm not sure where to fit him in, with the other wingers we have (if Brassard is on the wing).

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - Kessel
Sobotka - Brassard - Sprong

Rust for Sobotka isn't a move I'd want to make. If I'm trading Rust for a similar LWer, I either want a literal Rust clone, someone cheaper than Rust or someone younger than Rust.

I don't know... the fact that Sobotka could slide into the middle opens up a lot of other interesting options depending on injuries and how the roster shakes out.

I'm not really all that interested in moving Rust... but that's one deal that would tempt me.
 
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Sep 5, 2008
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Don't really care what kinda analytics you wanna throw around. Maatta's skating is absolutely abysmal, and it leads to the guy getting torched way too often. It's only going to get worse as time goes on too because of the shift to a more speed-oriented league.

So, sure, post whatever corsi or whatever you want. I watch the guy make awful reads, get caught out of position and get caught flat-footed nightly. He's a problem.
 

Jules Winnfield

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Part of the problem with Maatta is Sullivan’s system requires defensemen to make judgement calls to jump in the play and keep the puck in the offensive zone or neutral zone all the time. When Maatta gets too aggressive he looks awful and is always burned. It’s really a systems issue with him. A guy like Krug or Ellis would look amazing in this system. Oleksiak gets away with it most times because of his reach.
 

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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Part of the problem with Maatta is Sullivan’s system requires defensemen to make judgement calls to jump in the play and keep the puck in the offensive zone or neutral zone all the time. When Maatta gets too aggressive he looks awful and is always burned. It’s really a systems issue with him. A guy like Krug or Ellis would look amazing in this system. Oleksiak gets away with it most times because of his reach.

Yeah, you have to kind of wonder how much of that is on Maatta and his desire to follow his coaches directions... and on the coaching staff maybe not fully recognizing his limitations and what he probably should not be doing.

I mean obviously no coach wants him chasing a puck he probably won't get... but if he thinks he can get there first and keep it in... are those pucks that the coaching staff is telling him to chase, vs letting them come out of the OZ and just regrouping. BC if he's just making poor reads, that's on him. However if it's the coaching staff pushing for him to keep the puck in at all costs, then that's on them more so than him.
 

MayorofWBS

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Apr 14, 2015
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  • Athanasiou
  • Svechnikov
  • Mantha

Might just be me...but if I'm getting a LW off the Red Wing roster, I'd take Tyler Bertuzzi over those three. Kid has moxie, smarts, etc. AA has alot of physical skills but nearly zero hockey sense. Not sure he'll ever put it all together.
 

JackFr

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Jun 18, 2010
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I love how people pretend that analytics are just a made up thing that have no connection to actual success in hockey. As opposed to a very strong indicator that the some very important trends are not obvious from focusing on visable stuff.

When Maatta f***s up it's extremely visable because his foot speed isn't great and he occasionally makes bad decisions. When he succeeds, it's not very visable because he's not a flashy player. But it's fundamentally true that we are a better team with him on the ice. That's not numbers just pulled wildly from the ether. We control play, we transition the puck up the ice - everything central to Penguins hockey except raw foot speed is better with him on the ice.

But yeah let's just send him off for Edler or package him for Brodin, who actively has a negative effect on how his team plays when he's on the ice. This reminds me of how people used to view Sutter around the league - he was just assumed to be brilliant defensively, and he's so fast, and he's got a good shot. No, he sucked and the other team controlled the play with him on the ice. But reputations are reputations and Sutter's got a big contract as a result.
 
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