Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building - Locked in until July

[RizzleMcRib]

Youre really counting his first stint at 18 years old, with MJ as coach?

Ha..we are done here

My bad. Didn't know certain rules apply to what counts as a game in the NHL. And what's the excuse this year?

 

[Pens1566]

Couple of things ...

1) Rowney is at best a 4th line C. And he's currently 3rd on our depth chart for the spot.

Moving on ...

2) Sprong, who knows the real reason why he's not up with the big club.
- First, I don't buy the bit about "learning to play 200 ft" when Sheary can't stay upright long enough to skate 40 ft. Sprong's not going learn what is needed to play in the NHL by playing in the AHL.
- Ignore his stretch of games in his 1st stint at 18. Mike Johnson turned Crosby into an average player.
- His callup this season looked like more than enough proof that he should stick around and work out the kinks. Sid looked energized and freed up by space that Sprong was creating for him by drawing defense away.

My guess is it's some combo of a #s game with too many RWs and cap space. ZAR and Simon fill more roles. Although, that argument is dwindling as injuries pile up and he stays in WBS. Then again, that might be due to the callup limit.

 

[Riptide]

Simon got 31 games.. pretty sure if Sprong got that much playing time hed have better numbers than Simon.

Simon also showed a better ability to get the puck back to Crosby then Sprong did. Yes Sprong had more shots on net and a lesser but similar production rate that Simon had. But one of the biggest things (at least for our team) is a winger's ability to work with his center, and Simon was clearly better in that regard. And of those 22 shots on net you're bragging about... almost all came in his first 4 games (17/22). In the last 3.66 games (as he was benched in the 3rd period of game 8), he had 1, 0, 3, 1 shots on net for a total of 5. That accounts for almost half his time here... That's simply not good enough.

Make up whatever excuse you want, but when you're getting billed as a shooter/scorer and are not doing either, and more importantly are not really creating chances... it makes it really easy to send him back to the AHL.

That said... Simon's play before getting hurt was nothing to write home about, and it's surprising considering how often he was getting shuffled around in the lineup (aka moved to the 4th line) that he wasn't sent down and Sprong given another stint.

Before Sprong was sent down he was the most experienced of all the callups. 26 games.

The thing is he wasn't taking shots, and when he did he had a 9 shooting %. Simon can move up and down the lineup if need be. Sprong can't. I mean technically he can, but "He has to play with Sid to be effective."

Meh... that also basically applies to Simon. I think Simon has shown that he's a little more well rounded offensively (in regards to his ability to make plays and dish the puck), while Sprong is more of a pure shooter... but I do not really see either of these guys being all that successful on our 4th line.

 

[WDYT]

Isn't it pretty striking that Sprong - on a WBS team with guys with +16, +18, +21 - to be the leading scorer and be a team worst -7? I obviously know that +/- is not an elegant stat and can be misleading, but that stands out on his team. There's got to be something about what he's doing without the puck that is contributing to that.

I don't blame a team chasing a championship to not want to have a young prospect working out his kinks in the NHL or even worse in critical playoff games. He needs the development. The Pens aren't starving for his scoring talent.

 

[Riptide]

2) Sprong, who knows the real reason why he's not up with the big club.
- First, I don't buy the bit about "learning to play 200 ft" when Sheary can't stay upright long enough to skate 40 ft.

This is such a bullshit point that completely overlooks the reality of the NHL. Sheary makes 3 million dollars each year for the next 2.5 seasons. AND he just came off a very successful campaign last year. There's absolutely no chance in hell that Sheary would be benched so we could play Sprong who's shown little in his time here. It's in Pittsburgh's best interest that they get Sheary back to where he was last year. Sprong will be here either way, but if Sheary can get back to that .8PGP player that we saw last year (or w/e that # is), the Penguins will be a MUCH better team. And as such... that's why Sprong was sent back to the AHL and why Sheary continues to get games.

Was Sprong out of place at the NHL level? No. However neither did he play so well that we had to find a way to keep him. Guentzel forced us to do this. ZAR before getting hurt forced us to keep playing him. Sprong didn't come close to this.

A legit talking point about Sprong would have been when Sheary got hurt or when Simon was playing like shit. Not about how Rowney, ZAR, Hornqvist or whomf***ingever who plays a game nothing remotely close to what Sprong would or could attempt to fill was seeing icetime/games.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Isn't it pretty striking that Sprong - on a WBS team with guys with +16, +18, +21 - to be the leading scorer and be a team worst -7? I obviously know that +/- is not an elegant stat and can be misleading, but that stands out on his team. There's got to be something about what he's doing without the puck that is contributing to that.

I don't blame a team chasing a championship to not want to have a young prospect working out his kinks in the NHL or even worse in critical playoff games. He needs the development. The Pens aren't starving for his scoring talent.

+/- is a garbage stat, and you trying to use it in an argument invalidates any argument you might have.

Let's cut the bull****, Sprong's not in the NHL for like 2 reasons:

1. Who's ahead of him on the depth chart (and who can't be sent down to WBS).
2. The Penguins need him to develop traits in his game to have him mesh better with Crosby. He needs to improve his puck support in the offensive zone and his give and goes, both of which I noticed were issues with him in the NHL.

 

[WDYT]

+/- is a garbage stat,

I acknowledged that.

I still find it striking that a guy scoring nearly a point per game is a team worst -7, when multiple forwards on his own team are +16, +18, +21. It's worth paying some attention to and wondering what it means.

 

[KIRK]

+/- is a garbage stat, and you trying to use it in an argument invalidates any argument you might have.

Let's cut the bull****, Sprong's not in the NHL for like 2 reasons:

1. Who's ahead of him on the depth chart (and who can't be sent down to WBS).
2. The Penguins need him to develop traits in his game to have him mesh better with Crosby. He needs to improve his puck support in the offensive zone and his give and goes, both of which I noticed were issues with him in the NHL.

3. They don't like his attitude.

 

[RizzleMcRib]

Simon also showed a better ability to get the puck back to Crosby then Sprong did. Yes Sprong had more shots on net and a lesser but similar production rate that Simon had. But one of the biggest things (at least for our team) is a winger's ability to work with his center, and Simon was clearly better in that regard. And of those 22 shots on net you're bragging about... almost all came in his first 4 games (17/22). In the last 3.66 games (as he was benched in the 3rd period of game 8), he had 1, 0, 3, 1 shots on net for a total of 5. That accounts for almost half his time here... That's simply not good enough.

Make up whatever excuse you want, but when you're getting billed as a shooter/scorer and are not doing either, and more importantly are not really creating chances... it makes it really easy to send him back to the AHL.

That said... Simon's play before getting hurt was nothing to write home about, and it's surprising considering how often he was getting shuffled around in the lineup (aka moved to the 4th line) that he wasn't sent down and Sprong given another stint.



Meh... that also basically applies to Simon. I think Simon has shown that he's a little more well rounded offensively (in regards to his ability to make plays and dish the puck), while Sprong is more of a pure shooter... but I do not really see either of these guys being all that successful on our 4th line.

I didn't mean 4th line specifically. I meant more of top 9.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

This is such a bull**** point that completely overlooks the reality of the NHL. Sheary makes 3 million dollars each year for the next 2.5 seasons. AND he just came off a very successful campaign last year. There's absolutely no chance in hell that Sheary would be benched so we could play Sprong who's shown little in his time here. It's in Pittsburgh's best interest that they get Sheary back to where he was last year. Sprong will be here either way, but if Sheary can get back to that .8PGP player that we saw last year (or w/e that # is), the Penguins will be a MUCH better team. And as such... that's why Sprong was sent back to the AHL and why Sheary continues to get games.

Was Sprong out of place at the NHL level? No. However neither did he play so well that we had to find a way to keep him. Guentzel forced us to do this. ZAR before getting hurt forced us to keep playing him. Sprong didn't come close to this.

A legit talking point about Sprong would have been when Sheary got hurt or when Simon was playing like ****. Not about how Rowney, ZAR, Hornqvist or whom****ingever who plays a game nothing remotely close to what Sprong would or could attempt to fill was seeing icetime/games.

I don't think you bench Sheary for Sprong either and I also don't buy that Sprong couldn't feed Sid the puck better, we had Sprong with Sid during Sid's struggling stretch and he was close to turning the corner, around the time Sprong was sent down was when Simon was heating up and Sid as well, it's unfortunate that happened but it did so I think the idea of what Sprong did is quite jaded by a lot here and over hyped by a lot of others. I am in the middle with this. I think he should have been given more time when the opportunity was there, it clearly is not anymore so that's done. For now. For Sprong to get called back up, we would need some mass injuries to guys like Rust, Kessel, and Hornqvist all at the same time.

But in regards to Sheary.

I honestly rather have Simon and ZAR on this roster over him and I would probably dump his ass for the raises this team will need to dole out in the summer because we are lucky to have kids like ZAR and Simon and also have Sprong learning.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

+/- is a garbage stat, and you trying to use it in an argument invalidates any argument you might have.

Let's cut the bull****, Sprong's not in the NHL for like 2 reasons:

1. Who's ahead of him on the depth chart (and who can't be sent down to WBS).
2. The Penguins need him to develop traits in his game to have him mesh better with Crosby. He needs to improve his puck support in the offensive zone and his give and goes, both of which I noticed were issues with him in the NHL.

What the +/- is isnt important but the fact that its is soooo far out of line with the rest of the team is what is concerning. Especially when its obvious that his line is scoring when hes on the ice.

If that doesnt at least raise a question with you, then you might want to take the blinders off.

 

[pistolpete11]

Simon got 31 games.. pretty sure if Sprong got that much playing time hed have better numbers than Simon.

14 points in 31 games for Simon
3 points in 8 games for Sprong. Simon played 23 more games than Sprong yet he has 36 shots on net and Sprong has 22. Not even trying to knock Simon, but you cant say he outplayed Sprong when we have no idea what kind of numbers Sprong would have right now with 31 games played. Taking 20+ shots in every 8 games(btw we need a winger for crosby who can get the puck on net) played...would give him more than 80 shots so far if had the same amount of games as Simon. And with that shot of his...saying he could have 12-13 goals right now isnt far fetched

The argument I'm making is that Sprong (or Simon) haven't been good enough to just waive one of their depth centers. There's just no need for it. If they want to call up Sprong and send down Simon whenever Simon is healthy (if they are allowed to do that), I don't really care because they wouldn't be getting rid of any of their depth options for the playoffs.

I don't think it's worth saving a roster spot for a 28 year old who's biggest selling point is that he might get back to his career-best 21 point pace, extrapolated from a 27 game sample size.

Rowney's a passable plug. Not somebody I'd give a second thought to waiving in order to give a talented prospect with high upside a shot in a vacant scoring line role. With our present injuries to ZAR and Simon, we could still cycle through options like Jooris, Dea, Blueger, DiPauli, Johnson, etc.

None of them are going to be a significant drop-off from Rowney's present standard, in even a worst-case scenario.

His biggest selling point is that he can play center on a team with very little depth beyond their top 4 centers. He and Jooris are the only ones you named with more than a handful of NHL games under their belt. Shit, Sully barely trusted Dea enough to play him 5min a night in January let alone to lean on him to eat so many defensive zone starts in the playoffs.

But clearly this argument isn't going anywhere and it's moot since Rowney is hurt anyway. I just think it's a bad idea to throw away depth in general let alone for a prospect who may or may not be NHL ready. Clearly the Penguins don't think he's ready if they scratching him in the AHL, though. Obviously you don't agree.

 

[NMK11]

+/- is a garbage stat, and you trying to use it in an argument invalidates any argument you might have.

Let's cut the bull****, Sprong's not in the NHL for like 2 reasons:

1. Who's ahead of him on the depth chart (and who can't be sent down to WBS).
2. The Penguins need him to develop traits in his game to have him mesh better with Crosby. He needs to improve his puck support in the offensive zone and his give and goes, both of which I noticed were issues with him in the NHL.

+/- I s a garbage stat 99% of the time, but using it in comparison to teammates over long periods is the the 1% where it can actually show something. It minimizes all the confounders that invalidate it over shirt periods of time and uses it as a comparable stat rather than an absolute number.

I havent looked at Sprongs or the rest of WBS in terms of +/- so not really commenting on him in particular, just the fact that it can, in a very limited and specific context, be something to consider

 

[Shaffer]

3. They don't like his attitude.

Just fake it. Fake it til you make it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What the +/- is isnt important but the fact that its is soooo far out of line with the rest of the team is what is concerning. Especially when its obvious that his line is scoring when hes on the ice.

If that doesnt at least raise a question with you, then you might want to take the blinders off.

So saying a garbage stat is garbage is having blinders on now? Good to know.

+/- shows absolutely nothing but goal differential, it's a garbage individual stat because it's almost solely team based. People who seriously use it in an argument are absolutely clueless. Sprong's +/- isn't even remotely bad enough where someone can legitimately point to it as concerning. Oh no, he's a -7 where the next worst guy is a -4 (-2 if you want to look at players who have played in a lot of games). Oh no!!!!!!

There are plenty of discussion points to bring up with Sprong, don't litter actual discussions with +/- nonsense.

 

[Andy99]

Just fake it. Fake it til you make it.

It’s really hard to fake obsequiousness.....if you’re an “alpha” male...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guentzel: -12
Next worst top-9 forward: Sheary at -4

Oh my god, if that doesn't raise a question with you, then you need to take your blinders off!!!!!! Are we seriously at the point of using +/- in here? I really thought this place was better than this

+/- I s a garbage stat 99% of the time, but using it in comparison to teammates over long periods is the the 1% where it can actually show something. It minimizes all the confounders that invalidate it over shirt periods of time and uses it as a comparable stat rather than an absolute number.

I havent looked at Sprongs or the rest of WBS in terms of +/- so not really commenting on him in particular, just the fact that it can, in a very limited and specific context, be something to consider

Sprong is at -7, next worst is Archibald at -4 (in 6 games) followed by Thomas at -2. It's really not worse than the rest of the team, WBS just has 1 really good line that has been phenomenal in terms of goal differential. Wilson, Quinney, DiPauli, Johnson, Kostopoulos, Thomas and Burton are all at +5 or lower, and all of those guys have played in a lot of games this year. Simon was also at an even +/- through 21 games this year.

From the limited amount of research I've done, it seems like Sprong's worse +/- has to do with WBS giving up shorthanded goals. WBS has given up 11 SH goals, tied for 2nd most in the AHL, and you imagine that Sprong was on the ice for a lot of those.

 

[Brandinho]

It’s really hard to fake obsequiousness.....if you’re an “alpha” male...

Obsequiousness is not a positive trait and Sprong is not, and almost certainly never will be, an alpha. That term gets misused so often, but there's only ever one alpha in a "pack". If Sprong can't accept that, then he's not going to have a very productive career. I don't want him to be a servile coward, but if he has trouble understanding his place in the organization's hierarchy, then that could be a legitimate problem.

 

[#1GuinFan]

Every D has issues there. Even guys like Pronger, Lidstrom and Neidermyer had those issues. It just happened less often then it does with Letang or Karlsson. But that doesn't change the fact that EK is one (if not the) best D in the NHL today - especially if you're talking about a PMD offensive RD.

Not to mention he fits this team like a glove

 

[Riptide]

From the limited amount of research I've done, it seems like Sprong's worse +/- has to do with WBS giving up shorthanded goals. WBS has given up 11 SH goals, tied for 2nd most in the AHL, and you imagine that Sprong was on the ice for a lot of those.

Then that should still be reflected on the rest of his team, as he wouldn't be the only guy on the PP all the time. But when he's only 1 of 2 forwards, out of 16 who've played 19+ games for us with a minus AND he's our leading scorer (g+pts) AND everyone else is noticeably better in that dept, it should raise some eyebrows. That doesn't mean use it to say "Sprong is bad defensively - look at his +/-!". It doesn't support that. But when his linemates are all +10/18 or w/e... and he's sporting a -7. That had better at least raise some sort of flag, because if it doesn't, you're burying your head in the sand.

 

[Doogle]

So saying a garbage stat is garbage is having blinders on now? Good to know.

+/- shows absolutely nothing but goal differential, it's a garbage individual stat because it's almost solely team based. People who seriously use it in an argument are absolutely clueless. Sprong's +/- isn't even remotely bad enough where someone can legitimately point to it as concerning. Oh no, he's a -7 where the next worst guy is a -4 (-2 if you want to look at players who have played in a lot of games). Oh no!!!!!!

There are plenty of discussion points to bring up with Sprong, don't litter actual discussions with +/- nonsense.

+/- has it's flaws, but that doesn't mean that it's always to be so quickly disregarded simply because it paints a picture that you don't care to look upon.

If despite your scoring, and your team's success, you have a considerably worse +/-, it might be worth asking why that might be. When you combine those questions with the fact that not only are the big Pens not calling him up, but the baby Pens are scratching him, that should probably make you realize that there's probably more to him not playing than sheer stubbornness.

To me, that says that he has talent, but often makes critical errors and/or has concentration or effort lapses. Maybe he tries too hard to make a play that has minimal chances of working and often surrenders scoring chances the other way. Maybe he too often relies on his talent rather than using his head. In other words, his occasional scoring doesn't override the frequent mistakes, at least not yet.

Simon may have had a few gaffes and disappeared at times, but he was mostly sound and occasionally made really crisp passes. He might not have helped the team as much as Sprong, but he probably hurts them less for the most part.

 

[EightyOne]

Delete. Don't want no part of this debate.lol

 

[Peat]

Not that I think the +/- thing is completely irrelevant, but if we're throwing around stats with little consideration of context, I'd point out that Sprong went a 100 minutes in the big show with absurdly good defensive stats.

 

[NMK11]

Not that I think the +/- thing is completely irrelevant, but if we're throwing around stats with little consideration of context, I'd point out that Sprong went a 100 minutes in the big show with absurdly good defensive stats.

He was actually fine defensively to me when I focused on him. He looked a lot more active and in position than simon, but the former is being told to work on it and the latter stayed up. If there's anything Sprong needs to work on is puck support in the offensive zone.

 

[Pens1566]

This is such a bull**** point that completely overlooks the reality of the NHL. Sheary makes 3 million dollars each year for the next 2.5 seasons. AND he just came off a very successful campaign last year. There's absolutely no chance in hell that Sheary would be benched so we could play Sprong who's shown little in his time here. It's in Pittsburgh's best interest that they get Sheary back to where he was last year. Sprong will be here either way, but if Sheary can get back to that .8PGP player that we saw last year (or w/e that # is), the Penguins will be a MUCH better team. And as such... that's why Sprong was sent back to the AHL and why Sheary continues to get games.

Was Sprong out of place at the NHL level? No. However neither did he play so well that we had to find a way to keep him. Guentzel forced us to do this. ZAR before getting hurt forced us to keep playing him. Sprong didn't come close to this.

A legit talking point about Sprong would have been when Sheary got hurt or when Simon was playing like ****. Not about how Rowney, ZAR, Hornqvist or whom****ingever who plays a game nothing remotely close to what Sprong would or could attempt to fill was seeing icetime/games.

Funny enough, I actually had something about Sheary's salary/contract being the only legit reason over Sprog originally in the post and deleted it.