Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Forget the whale ... We'll buy the place with beads

Discussion in 'Pittsburgh Penguins' started by DegenX, Oct 28, 2017.

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  1. Riptide

    Riptide Registered User Sponsor

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    Good for him. I honestly hope he does well there. Given how the start of our season has gone, even if he were still here, the odds of him looking good enough to stick around once healthy were likely very slim.
     
  2. Empoleon8771

    Empoleon8771 Kunitz Was There

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    From from what I've read about Pouliot, he looks about the same to slightly better with Vancouver than he did with Pittsburgh. He's playing at slightly higher than replacement level while being heavily sheltered. He has probably been about equal to what Ruhwedel has been for the Penguins. Serviceable, but not really anything more than that. Canucks fans have the same complaints about him that Penguins fans did.
     
  3. pixiesfanyo

    pixiesfanyo Registered User

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    I don't understand your insistence on ES production with our top six?

    Does Malkin, Crosby, and Kessel producing on a PP lose us games?

    Crosby isn't producing. Proper championship caliber teams have the depth to cover for that. Rutherford messed up this summer in terms of addressing our depth and its showing right now.

    Also, do you just assume Sheahan, Kuhn, McKegg, Reaves, and Hags are just going to start producing if Crosby does?
     
  4. pixiesfanyo

    pixiesfanyo Registered User

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    Have you watched a single Vancouver game?

    Pouliot has been a solid addition to the Canucks and played 20+ two games in a row a game ago. Seems like Canucks fans are all over the trade, main board and their own board saying that Pouliot is one of their most pleasant surprises of their season.
     
  5. Empoleon8771

    Empoleon8771 Kunitz Was There

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    No, hence why I said "based on what I've read".

    A simple look at the Canucks board proves this to be false. There are still plenty of people not happy about either Pouliot or the trade (or both). He's a pleasant surprise because they expected nothing going in and got slightly better than that. There are plenty of people saying the same things people here said about Pouliot.

    From what Canucks fans have said on their forum, he has basically been Chad Ruhwedel for them. #7D that can be serviceable when playing in stretches, but he's not an everyday player.
     
  6. pixiesfanyo

    pixiesfanyo Registered User

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    Welp, here's some things to read.

    Derrick Pouliot has been the most pleasant surprise of the Canucks season

    I'd also suggest actually watching a player before commenting on whatever you have read. Might help you provide an opinion with some weight. Even if it is just highlights.

    Also, if you want to use HF opinion as a definition of a player.

    http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/pouliot-trade-looks-bad.2411037/#post-137910413

    Here is literally a thread posted a few hours ago talking up Pooh.
     
  7. Pens x

    Pens x Registered User

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    Well maybe you are right, Sheahan doubled his amount of points in last night’s game. The only problem is that he only scored 1 point.

    Everyone knows that the number #1 concern is the star players are struggling a bit. But we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think a trade is necessary quite yet to help the top 6.

    Then there is the bottom six. We don’t have the personnel outside of the third line wingers for these lines to be any good. I’ve accepted that we aren’t going to have an offensive fourth line but I refuse to just sit back and let Riley Sheahan try to regain his form. Sid’s earned that right, Sheahan is a joke.

    It’s just odd that you refuse to acknowledge that 5 of of bottom six just aren’t good players and continue to blame the stars. It doesn’t matter what the bottom six does! Look at sid!

    You just keep blaming Sid. If Sid gets back to producing, does that magically make the bottom six good? One has nothing to do with the other. Its so odd that you are giving players that have never produced ever and players that haven’t produced in years a free pass, but you criticize the great players.

    Our big guns deserve blame but the bottom six is pretty terrible.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017 at 8:24 AM
  8. Shady Machine

    Shady Machine Registered User

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    The only big guns that deserve blame are Crosby and Letang, but both are being overplayed in terms of ice time which may be compounding their issues more than anything. Kessel is having his best start to the year since joining the Pens and Malkin is above a PPG.

    I know the Pens go as Sid and Geno go, but you need depth when your star player struggles. The Penguins don't have that depth at center. I know you know this, but I'm just building off of your point.
     
  9. Shady Machine

    Shady Machine Registered User

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    Forgetting ES vs PP points for a moment, here are the G/82 and P/82 of our top players right now:

    Kessel: 31.8 Goals and 98.4 Points
    Malkin: 28.7 Goals and 86.1 Points
    Crosby: 24.6 Goals and 61.5 Points
    Letang: 4.1 Goals and 57.4 Points

    Rust: 8.2 Goals and 45.1 Points
    Sheary: 32.8 Goals and 41.0 Points
    Hornqvist: 28.9 Goals and 48.2 Points
    Guentzel: 20.5 Goals and 41.0 Points
    Maatta: 8.2 Goals and 41.0 Points
    Schultz: 11.7 Goals and 35.1 Points

    I used per 82 because Schultz has missed a fair amount of time which impacts his point production this year.

    The only ones that are lower than I'd expect are Crosby, Letang (10 points lower?), Sheary (10 points at most, but playing 3rd line right now), Guentzel (10-15 points lower), and Schultz (injury, less PP time than when Letang was injured but I would like to see 45-50 from him).

    We also have a few guys, Kessel and Maatta, producing above what we would reasonably expect coming into the year and others like Malkin, Rust, Hornqvist producing right in line with expectations.

    Now let's look at the rest of the roster:

    Rowney: 9.1 Goals and 18.2 Points (0nly 9 game sample size)
    McKegg: 8.2 Goals and 16.4 Points
    Cole: 4.8 Goals and 14.5 Points
    Reaves: 4.1 Goals and 12.3 Points
    Kuhnhackl: 0 Goals and 12.3 Points
    Hagelin: 4.3 Goals and 8.6 Points
    Sheahan: 0 Goals and 8.6 Points (includes Det and Pitt). On pace for 14.9 in Pitt
    Dumo: 4.1 Goals and 4.1 Points
    Ruhwedel: 0 Goals and 4.8 Points


    The bolded player's production is a BIG issue right now and will continue to be something JR needs to address. Hagelin, Kuhn, and Sheahan need upgraded or fixed soon. I can handle Hagelin if he's helping Geno and Kessel continue to do their thing, but that production is pretty pathetic. Reaves is a problem, but he's not producing significantly less than anyone should have expected.
     
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  10. Empoleon8771

    Empoleon8771 Kunitz Was There

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    Why are you being hilariously disingenuous here? I have access to stuff to read about Pouliot in Vancouver so far. Why do I need to watch him to relay what Canucks fans are saying about him?

    You seem to be extremely condescending here, acting like I don't have any clue about Pouliot and acting like I don't have plenty of posts from Canucks fans supporting what I'm saying here. Suggest watching a player? Dude, I've watched him for 70 games in Pittsburgh and a lot of Canucks fans are saying the same thing that people here said about him. I really don't think a reactionary thread after a game where he played really well is a great indicator of me being incorrect here.

    Speaking of the first point you mentioned, Pouliot has always been a fancy stat darling, even while playing bad. Judging players based solely on Corsi is incredibly flawed, because Pouliot has always had good possession stats even when playing bad.
     
  11. Coach John McGuirk

    Coach John McGuirk ヽ(。_°)ノ

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    Pouliot was never going to be successful here, and now he's gone, so it's about as relevant as pining for Gibbons. Sometimes a change of scenery is what a guy needs, and good on Pouliot for showing he's more than AHL fodder for the Canucks. He was still a complete ****-show defensively and a nonentity offensively here over nearly a full season's worth of games. /shrug
     
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  12. Jag68Sid87

    Jag68Sid87 Nothing Else Maattas

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    I like Pouliot and wanted to keep him, but I understand why JR dealt him when he did and am glad Pouliot is turning his career around. I don't think it was going to happen here. So, at least we didn't lose him for nothing. Sometimes, a change of scenery is all a player needs. And sometimes, it doesn't matter (like Bennett, who seems to be heading down the path of a career journeyman).

    I don't think it's fair to blame JR for anything at present time, because we CLEARLY are not a finished product and will make more moves. THEN, it will be time to biitch and complain about the lineup.
     
  13. Pens x

    Pens x Registered User

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    You can’t just go off what a message board says. If a stranger came here to the Pens message boards, and didn’t watch the Pens, they’d think this Crosby guy is terrible and Sheahan isn’t bad, just need moar time. I would take what you say with a grain of sailor.
     
  14. pixiesfanyo

    pixiesfanyo Registered User

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    So, your argument is that Pouliot is playing bad because a few users on HFboards said so?

    Cool. I just provided statistical evidence, not to mention his actual point lines, usage, etc to establish that he's filling in at top four level and the real test will be his usage once their D is healthy.

    But I'm glad FiddlinLinden69's opinion on a message board means more.

    Also, Pooh had strong possession numbers in one year here and it was his sophomore year when he looked good.
     
  15. Peat

    Peat Registered User

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    Ah thanks. Lindberg or Eakin it is then.

    Maybe if they have the reading comprehension and hockey knowledge of a gnat.

    This might be the only time me and McGuirk are going to agree on Pouliot. Kid's gone and good luck to him.

    I guess it might be fun to talk about how he's doing but a) There's Pouliot threads out there for those who want to b) Maybe wait for a bigger sample size?
     
  16. Empoleon8771

    Empoleon8771 Kunitz Was There

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    No, reading is fun. I said he's been basically what Ruhwedel has been for the Penguins, a #7 who has looked serviceable in a regular role.

    Want actual stats to prove something? Here you go:

    Offensive zone start%: 63.2%, highest among defensemen on the Canucks
    ES TOI/game: 13:40, 8th out of 9 defensemen who have played in games for the Canucks this year

    He's been heavily sheltered, 3 games of that not being true when they've had injuries doesn't change that. You seem to be freaking out over a 3 game sample size when he played well when ignoring literally everything else. He's been slightly replacement level defensemen for the Canucks overall, 3 games doesn't change that.

    In that case, your opinion is worthless too then. Since you're just a HF poster, you obviously don't know anything either.

    Pouliot's overall possession stats when in Pittsburgh were good, and they were so good that he was at threat of going on waivers this year and was traded for a 4th round pick. For some reason, I don't think possession stats are a good indicator of actual talent level. I wonder why though. Tyler Kennedy had fantastic possession stats with fine bottom-6 production in 2015-2016 with New Jersey, it didn't change the fact that he was out of the NHL after that year.

    I even like Pouliot and was one of his bigger fans on this site. Anyone that has posted here for any amount of time in the last 2 years can verify that. You are disingenuously painting him as a legit top-4 defenseman with Vancouver, which is just untrue. Him getting 4 secondary assists in 15 games doesn't mean he's playing at a top-4 level. Him playing an average of 22 minutes a night in 2 games where the Canucks were outscored 9-1 doesn't mean he's playing at a top-4 level.

    What is even the point of this anyway? To say JR messed up when trading a guy the Penguins would have lost to waivers anyway? I don't get the point of bringing up Pouliot anyway. He sucked at the end of his time here, and the Penguins got an asset for someone they would have lost to waivers for nothing. That's the end of the story, that's really it. It's like an Oilers fan complaining about Schultz playing well in Pittsburgh, Schultz was never going to get to that level in Edmonton, so the story of Schultz with the Oilers ended with the trade.
     
  17. Mr Jiggyfly

    Mr Jiggyfly Registered User

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    Schultz was never going to progress with the Oilers because they were a tire fire, and so was he.

    DP just needed to play and get his confidence back. That could have happened with the Pens, who did it with Cole and Schultz, but they chose not to. Cole was brutalized on this board for almost a year, but he eventually came around. He definitely had a rough 50-60 game patch as a Pen before he found himself around Feb '16.

    It is what it is, and hopefully he has a nice career, but I'll never buy that DP couldn't have progressed as a Penguin if given the time and patience.
     
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  18. SEALBound

    SEALBound Fancy Conor McSheary

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    Agreed. I had no ill-will against him. I, in fact, REALLY wanted him to work out for us but you're right, sometimes a fresh start is what's needed. We should understand that more than anyone. I hold nothing against JR for dealing him regardless of how he ends up playing. Similarly, it's not like Oilers fans can be mad about them dealing Schultz. Some players with some teams just aren't meant to be. It happens. Won't be the first, won't be the last. I wish him well.

    This team matters in one facet. The playoffs. This team is judged solely on that. I don't care if they squeak in last minute in the WC2 spot. Playoff results are the only things that matter. In both 2016 and 2017, in mid-late November, the team was seeing similar struggles. There is a lot of time to make adjustments. That may be from WBS players or trades. We've seen both work for us. I don't think JR is just sitting on his hands. We just saw his obvious willingness to make big moves - ie, the last push for Duchene. The lack of completed trades, either now or from summer, doesn't mean JR and Co isn't trying. Given his time here, he's earned the benefit of the doubt on that front. Some things work out better than others. That's the game, that's life.

    I'd like to get a clearer picture of the long term structure of the team. Who do JR and Sully see as the "core"? I mean, obviously Sid, Geno, Letang, Murray. But looking at the other depth players, what's the pecking order?

    Guentzel, Kessel, Rust, Sheary, Sprong, Horny, Hagelin, Kuhn, Arch

    I imagine they see Hagelin as expendable. I imagine they see Kuhn, Rowney, Archi, etc as merely 4th line depth players - take em or leave em.

    I'm betting they love Horny but realize that a resign to the cap-friendly deal in terms of long term building with the other youngins isn't likely to happen. However, he provides more to us than what we would likely get back in a trade.

    Kessel, no idea...

    That leaves Jake, Rust, Sheary, and Sprong. Who do they view as the keepers and the potential bait?

    If I had to guess: Jake - untouchable, Rust - not untouchable but not shopping, Sheary - potential bait, Sprong - not untouchable/potential bait.

    But long term, who do they see in the top 6 and those that are not in the top 6, can they be effective bottom 6 players?
     
  19. Empoleon8771

    Empoleon8771 Kunitz Was There

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    He did nothing in his time in Pittsburgh to deserve that, that's the problem. On a team like Vancouver, they can give him that time. But on Pittsburgh, Pouliot was behind way too many guys for him to be given the ice time he needed to progress. Cole got the playing time that he did because the Penguins defense sucked when he first came in, and Schultz got the ice time he did when he came in because he was a RHD as opposed to Pouliot being a LHD (Lovejoy got hurt about a week before and was out until the last week in March).

    Today, Pouliot would never have gotten the chance to play to progress. He had been passed up by Ruhwedel on the depth chart, so even with Hunwick out, he wouldn't be playing. The Penguins were very deep in defensemen in 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 and Pouliot did nothing to show he deserved a chance over players like Daley or Cole, so that was basically a death sentence for him. The Penguins didn't "choose not to" do the same thing with Pouliot as they did with Cole and Schultz, Pouliot never gave them a reason to do the same thing with him that they did with Cole and Schultz. Pouliot was an unproven LHD that was trying to turn pro when the Penguins defense was very deep, and he generally struggled in the NHL.
     
  20. UnrealMachine

    UnrealMachine Registered User

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    I can't believe we let this hockey stud Pouliot guy slip through our fingers. WHAT WERE WE THINKING?!?
     
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  21. Mr Jiggyfly

    Mr Jiggyfly Registered User

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    Cole never did much to stay in the lineup either when he first came over. He was decent his first 20 or so games, then played really poor to start out the first half of the next season.

    Dude was a -17 when he was benched that Jan. Turned it around big time after that though.

    Pens stuck with him and low and behold.

    Like I said, it is what it is. I don't see it as the end of the world, but I'll never agree it was like the Schultz situation. The Pens simply didn't have the patience with him for whatever reasons.

    I know he was never as bad as Cole was during his own wretched stretch...
     
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  22. Saints11

    Saints11 Registered User

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    And yet Sully sung the praises of Sheahan and his line after last nights game. But, what does he know.
     
  23. Shady Machine

    Shady Machine Registered User

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    I agree with that. It seemed like both parties reached a point where moving on was in the best interest of both parties. Right or wrong, Sully just didn't trust him and he wasn't going to get the right kind of playing time (PP, Ozone starts, etc) to get his confidence back.
     
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  24. Shady Machine

    Shady Machine Registered User

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    He praised his line. He didn't say a damn thing about Sheahan.

    I'll concede though and say Sheahan played well last night. He's a good positional hockey player, but he's gotta start producing soon to justify his place in the lineup long term. 2 goals in the last 99 games going back to the beginning of 2016 and 0 in 11 games in Pittsburgh. It's fine to be patient, but I feel like he's being given a pass that previous 3C's weren't given around here.
     
  25. Mr Jiggyfly

    Mr Jiggyfly Registered User

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    He does have to finish his chances soon. I think tying the game up on that great chance would have been a huge confidence booster.

    He hit the crossbar the other game to...

    At a certain point it's not snakebites, it's thinking too hard and thinking you are going to hit the crossbar or the goalies pads...

    I think he's manifesting his ****ty luck right now.
     
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