Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Forget the whale ... We'll buy the place with beads

[Shady Machine]

I'd hesitate because of ZAR being included, just because he's relatively unique to the Penguins system. I'd rather have a guy like DiPauli or Simon included over ZAR, which wouldn't be that big of a value difference IMO.

I'm good with that if it gets it done. I just figured ZAR was more valuable and therefore, might be what GMGM would need to make a deal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Something that has disappointed me so far this year with the Penguins is their reluctance to make any roster changes, which kinda spits in the face of what helped them win back to back cups IMO. If you keep the same roster in every game after keeping similar rosters in recent years, guys are going to become complacent. Even the guys who worked their butts off for spots in 2015-2016 are going to be complacent with their roster spots now, because none of those guys are going to be taken out of the lineup even if they suck.

I'm looking forward to this offseason, because I feel like it gives the Penguins another chance to inject more youthful energy into their lineup that normally isn't realistic to do during the season. All of Rowney, Kuhnhackl, Reaves and McKegg are some sort of free agents this offseason, I'd be really happy to see them get replaced with guys like DiPauli, Blueger, Archibald and Simon.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

Couldn't agree more. Little to no changes being made to the roster is infuriating

 

[SEALBound]

haha I just said I'd do that trade today. But the larger point is that JR deserves criticism for not addressing the center situation earlier because now it's more expensive. That's not a hindsight argument by the way, because I said that more times than I can remember all summer.

Anyway, 1st+ZAR for Karlsson. Discuss.

And my argument to that is two fold:

1. It's in the past and there is nothing we can do about so it doesn't need to be stated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over AND OVER again.

2. You have no evidence to suggest he didn't try to address the center position in the summer. You have no evidence to suggest that the prices then are/were cheaper than now. You have no idea the actual availability, both then and now, of the guys you want.

To reiterate using the common example: you have no evidence that JR did not to GMGM about Karlsson. You have no evidence that Karlsson was even available in the first place. You have no evidence that the cost to acquire Karlsson now is more expensive than what it would have been in the summer.

The argument is "I don't see a completed trade therefore JR did nothing and I am mad at him for doing nothing" and it's a poor argument based on absolutely nothing.

Something that has disappointed me so far this year with the Penguins is their reluctance to make any roster changes, which kinda spits in the face of what helped them win back to back cups IMO. If you keep the same roster in every game after keeping similar rosters in recent years, guys are going to become complacent. Even the guys who worked their butts off for spots in 2015-2016 are going to be complacent with their roster spots now, because none of those guys are going to be taken out of the lineup even if they suck.

I'm looking forward to this offseason, because I feel like it gives the Penguins another chance to inject more youthful energy into their lineup that normally isn't realistic to do during the season. All of Rowney, Kuhnhackl, Reaves and McKegg are some sort of free agents this offseason, I'd be really happy to see them get replaced with guys like DiPauli, Blueger, Archibald and Simon.

If you remember back to last year around this time, there was very little roster movement. The first significant change was technically Guentzel coming up on November 21st. Even then, he lasted only a few games and was sent down and we returned to the status quo. It wasn't until mid January he was brought back. In the meantime, it was the same struggles that plagued the team early on.

So while I agree 100%, it's not like this year is necessarily different than past years. Problem may be, how many more guys can we bring up?

I'd love to see them rotate through Sprong, Simon, DiPauli, and potentially Blueger absolutely.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Man, this team would look so much better if we grabbed Kane at the deadline.

 

[KIRK]

And if our stars were closer to what we've been used to, we add the same amount. And that's only looking at 2 players, not half the forward group.

2017/18: Crosby, Malkin: 12 goals through 19 games. 7 on the PP, 5 at ES.
2016/17: Crosby, Malkin: 20 goals through 19 games (with Crosby missing 6 of them). 6 on the PP, 14 at ES.

The bolded sums up our current woos perfectly.

Has it dawned on you that there might be a price to be paid for our two stars doing what they did last year to carry things when half the team was on cruise control?

It's dawning on JR now, from what I understand.

 

[mpp9]

I'll just simply argue Sprong's worth to this team is considerable since we need cheaper players to produce at a high level. That's what keeps this team deep. So we need that. So yes... to this team Sprong is more valuable. To Carolina, Staal is more valuable.

If he pulls a Guentzel, yeah. If he’s not contributing in the playoffs, no.

We have yet to see where he’s at in the NHL.

 

[KIRK]

Couldn't agree more. Little to no changes being made to the roster is infuriating

Here's the catch. If you change things a lot, you can't undo that. If you make small change after a cup win, you can always change things later.

Last year, I thought they'd need to change things later, but it's really a testament to just how much Sid and Geno left out there and how good the goaltending was nightly. What if they'd made massive change before last season? See my point?

You knew there would be drop offs in the bottom six, in how much Sid and Geno could give, and from Fleury to Niemi. But, JR looked at what happened last year and figured they'd be fine unless everything went wrong and the collective impact was that bad. Well, it's been the worst case scenario.

Blaming him for that and for not making crazy deals just to make crazy deals is insane. It's hard now too, because there's not much of a market. He wanted Duchene for a year and a half, but they didn't want Sheary or Maatta. They wanted futures, and the Pens didn't have enough and the right mix even if they were willing to give up their 3 best (Sprong, Jarry, 1st).

Two weeks ago, I'd have said let's see what happens around Christmas and into January and to judge JR fairly by that.

I'm not sure right now he's got that long to do nothing. I'm also not sure how many dance partners he'll really have.

Bad situation.

 

[mpp9]

Man, this team would look so much better if we grabbed Kane at the deadline.

His game just screams playoff hockey to me. Let him walk in the summer if it doesn’t work.

Adds a component we don’t have while still fitting in with the speed game.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Man, this team would look so much better if we grabbed Kane at the deadline.

But but...his attitude, blah blah blah.

Yeah he looks fantastic, tenacious and in your face on every shift. Him and Horny on a line together would drive teams nuts.

 

[Riptide]

Deal from strength. Sprong if he is the real deal makes Kessel or Horny expendable after this year. Horny will be resigned as long as the cost is around for 4 years @4.5. Kessel is at 5.1 million in salary after this year. Pens can get some nice assets back for him. Love Phil and his contributions but asset management can extend the teams drive for cups.

Not likely. A young player/prospect and a 1st? Yeah, probably. But his NTC that only allows us to trade him to 8 teams is super restrictive, and it's not like he's going to waive to go just anywhere. Toronto asked him to waive and he refused. So while I'm sure there would be more interest in him now with a 6.8m cap hit then a 8m one, and with a pair of rings... we will still not get some sort of haul for him. At least Toronto had his term going for him (7 years). We will not even get that as by the time it's possible we might consider moving him, it will be at least 18 months away.

@resigning Hornqvist at 4x4.5m. Of course he would be re-signed at that price. Unfortunately for us, he would never take that deal unless it had a lot more term to it, and likely a higher cap hit as well.

 

[Riptide]

I’d like Staal honestly. I’d be willing to give up Sprong+1st+ if CAR retains 1.5m.

At 4.5m I'd be pretty interested. The issue, however is how happy would he be here in that clear #3C role? And even if he said he could accept it... it would mean a lot of compromises. Hornqvist for starters, as well as other depth over the coming seasons. Things wouldn't be impossible... but they'd be pretty damn tight.

Besides, if we're being honest, I struggle to see Carolina retaining almost 9m in cash to trade us Staal for just Sprong and a 1st, plus whatever contract is needed to make it work financially - likely Hagelin.

 

[Riptide]

Expecting Sid and Malkin to solely carry this team's offense has failed in every year outside of 09.

And expecting "depth" to cover for the fact that your #1 franchise center (who is typically a PPG+ player) is playing at a 56 pt pace is delusional.

 

[Riptide]

Something that has disappointed me so far this year with the Penguins is their reluctance to make any roster changes, which kinda spits in the face of what helped them win back to back cups IMO. If you keep the same roster in every game after keeping similar rosters in recent years, guys are going to become complacent. Even the guys who worked their butts off for spots in 2015-2016 are going to be complacent with their roster spots now, because none of those guys are going to be taken out of the lineup even if they suck.

I'm looking forward to this offseason, because I feel like it gives the Penguins another chance to inject more youthful energy into their lineup that normally isn't realistic to do during the season. All of Rowney, Kuhnhackl, Reaves and McKegg are some sort of free agents this offseason, I'd be really happy to see them get replaced with guys like DiPauli, Blueger, Archibald and Simon.

In general or since our woos? For the latter, most teams do not start making changes until around now. So expecting the players that JR would (or hopefully should) be looking at is setting one up for disappointment. As for general idea... who did you want him to move? The only really guy that it would make sense to move is Hagelin, and even when he's not scoring, he's still an asset. And honestly, I think we would struggle to move him in a deal that would end up being a benefit to the team.

And even if we didn't bring in Reaves, our 4th line would still be crowded. Just wait until Jan... we'll have seen some more of the kids by then.

 

[T1K]

Hagelin+1st for Backlund

Fair deal?

 

[Gurglesons]

And expecting "depth" to cover for the fact that your #1 franchise center (who is typically a PPG+ player) is playing at a 56 pt pace is delusional.

I usually agree with you Rip, but you are out to lunch.

Malkin is above a PPG. Kessel is in the top ten. This team should be able to succeed with Crosby putting up typical 2C points.

 

[Empoleon8771]

In general or since our woos? For the latter, most teams do not start making changes until around now. So expecting the players that JR would (or hopefully should) be looking at is setting one up for disappointment. As for general idea... who did you want him to move? The only really guy that it would make sense to move is Hagelin, and even when he's not scoring, he's still an asset. And honestly, I think we would struggle to move him in a deal that would end up being a benefit to the team.

And even if we didn't bring in Reaves, our 4th line would still be crowded. Just wait until Jan... we'll have seen some more of the kids by then.

Kuhnhackl, Rowney and Hagelin are the three big ones. The Penguins shouldn't commit to depth players for more than a year or two when they have the young players to step in and replace them. I don't think the Penguins would have had any issues with replacing those 3 internally, especially with McKegg turning out to be a positive surprise. It's also one reason why the Penguins shouldn't plan on re-signing Cole after this year.

If the Penguins plan on waiving Kuhnhackl and Rowney later in the year and replacing them with Blueger and DiPauli, it's not an issue then. I just don't think that's all that that likely.

 

[66-30-33]

Man, this team would look so much better if we grabbed Kane at the deadline.

Sherry+Reaves for Kane at 1M retained? Dunno if it's enough, but Sherry is signed for 2 more years at a much cheaper price. Then try re-signing him if it's possible at all. Then a 1st+Sheahan for Haula? roll a 3rd line of Kane-Haula-Hornqvist. Then see if we have the room for Cullen if Minny is out. Perhaps Kuhn+prospect for Cullen. Allow Archibald to play. Archy-Cullen-McKegg as our 4th line.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sherry+Reaves for Kane at 1M retained? Dunno if it's enough, but Sherry is signed for 2 more years at a much cheaper price. Then try re-signing him if it's possible at all. Then a 1st+Sheahan for Haula? roll a 3rd line of Kane-Haula-Hornqvist. Then see if we have the room for Cullen if Minny is out. Perhaps Kuhn+prospect for Cullen. Allow Archibald to play. Archy-Cullen-McKegg as our 4th line.

I think the Sheary trades are almost as dumb as the Kessel trades.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

At 4.5m I'd be pretty interested. The issue, however is how happy would he be here in that clear #3C role? And even if he said he could accept it... it would mean a lot of compromises. Hornqvist for starters, as well as other depth over the coming seasons. Things wouldn't be impossible... but they'd be pretty damn tight.

Besides, if we're being honest, I struggle to see Carolina retaining almost 9m in cash to trade us Staal for just Sprong and a 1st, plus whatever contract is needed to make it work financially - likely Hagelin.

Staal has a full NMC, if he were to agree, he knows exactly what role he is coming back for. The thing is, he produced the same in a top 6 role in Carolina and hasn't sniffed the playoffs . Maybe now that he's 29, he is ready to play his role on a championship team again. He's been out of the playoffs for 5 out of his 6yrs in Carolina, I'm willing to bet he'd come and be happy.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Sherry+Reaves for Kane at 1M retained? Dunno if it's enough, but Sherry is signed for 2 more years at a much cheaper price. Then try re-signing him if it's possible at all. Then a 1st+Sheahan for Haula? roll a 3rd line of Kane-Haula-Hornqvist. Then see if we have the room for Cullen if Minny is out. Perhaps Kuhn+prospect for Cullen. Allow Archibald to play. Archy-Cullen-McKegg as our 4th line.

So basically a lateral move for fixing our scoring in the top 6 left side. To get Kane, we'll have to part with some prospects and the 1st, but Sheary wouldn't be the guy I would send for a rental. Ever. That's just bad asset management.

Also, I want Reaves around for the playoffs if the Capitals some how make it or the Leafs do and idiots like Martin, Komarov or Wilson take liberties, then at least Reaves will have some fun dance partners and hopefully a pounding or two keeps them in the IR.

 

[66-30-33]

Right side can still be Rust, Kessel, Hornqvist. Or Sprong, Kessel, Hornqvist with Rust on the left with Jake and Kane. Hags would probably be gone in the Vegas deal.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

Here's the catch. If you change things a lot, you can't undo that. If you make small change after a cup win, you can always change things later.

Last year, I thought they'd need to change things later, but it's really a testament to just how much Sid and Geno left out there and how good the goaltending was nightly. What if they'd made massive change before last season? See my point?

You knew there would be drop offs in the bottom six, in how much Sid and Geno could give, and from Fleury to Niemi. But, JR looked at what happened last year and figured they'd be fine unless everything went wrong and the collective impact was that bad. Well, it's been the worst case scenario.

Blaming him for that and for not making crazy deals just to make crazy deals is insane. It's hard now too, because there's not much of a market. He wanted Duchene for a year and a half, but they didn't want Sheary or Maatta. They wanted futures, and the Pens didn't have enough and the right mix even if they were willing to give up their 3 best (Sprong, Jarry, 1st).

Two weeks ago, I'd have said let's see what happens around Christmas and into January and to judge JR fairly by that.

I'm not sure right now he's got that long to do nothing. I'm also not sure how many dance partners he'll really have.

Bad situation.

I was meaning more about lineup tweaks so far this season

 

[CertifiedLurker]

The trade Kessel talk to somehow "extend" the cup chances is actually one of the least sense making things I've ever read. The team is better with him than without him, if the goal is to win the cup and not just make the playoffs, you keep him until that window of truly being a contender and not just a playoff team shuts or his wheels fall off. Gotta pay the price if you want to win it all. I don't have an interest in playing it safe with the future when its so damn hard to win it all and the pieces to keep winning are still available to this team right now.

 

[Pens x]

And expecting "depth" to cover for the fact that your #1 franchise center (who is typically a PPG+ player) is playing at a 56 pt pace is delusional.

So you bash Sid but blindly defend Rutherford and these bottom six idiots? Sid is trash, but Riley Sheahan needs more time! You keep preaching patience but have no issues trashing our star players? You routinely defend Rutherford for everything. You refuse to acknowledge that the bottom six needs to be redone.