Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Forget the whale ... We'll buy the place with beads

[Coastal Kev]

I’d like Staal honestly. I’d be willing to give up Sprong+1st+ if CAR retains 1.5m.

NO

 

[Shaffer]

NO

Explain.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Letang+1st for RNH+Puljujarvi+1st

Kessel or Horny+1st to Calgary for Brodie

Jake-Sid-Sheary
Rust-Malkin-Sprong
Puljujarvi-RNH-Kessel/Horny
Hags-Sheahan-Reaves/Archi/Kuhn

Dumoulin-Brodie
Cole-Schultz
Maatta-Rudwedel

Mur-ray
Jar-ray

Am I the only one who thinks the Pens come away much weaker if they pulled off these trades?

Letang, at his best, is at a level Brodie can't reach. Brodie, at his best, is a good top pairing defender, but I'm not sure he's actually a #1 that can carry a defense corps.

And swapping out Kessel for Puljujarvi and RNH is a downgrade, at least for the next couple of seasons until we see if Puljujarvi can actually become a legitimate top line player at the NHL level.

I'm also not particularly high on RNH. He's closer to a low end 2C/high end 3C, which I guess fits what the Pens currently need, but not at the expense of an impact guy like Kessel or Letang.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Explain.

What does Staal do for us long term? Sprong has unlimited potential to be top line scoring winger. I better get a lot more back than Staal who is overpaid even with Carolina retaining.

 

[Shady Machine]

Am I the only one who thinks the Pens come away much weaker if they pulled off these trades?

Letang, at his best, is at a level Brodie can't reach. Brodie, at his best, is a good top pairing defender, but I'm not sure he's actually a #1 that can carry a defense corps.

And swapping out Kessel for Puljujarvi and RNH is a downgrade, at least for the next couple of seasons until we see if Puljujarvi can actually become a legitimate top line player at the NHL level.

I'm also not particularly high on RNH. He's closer to a low end 2C/high end 3C, which I guess fits what the Pens currently need, but not at the expense of an impact guy like Kessel or Letang.

No you are not the only one. That's why I asked "why"? That seems like a lot of trading to end up being at best the same, but with different issues.

 

[Shaffer]

What does Staal do for us long term? Sprong has unlimited potential to be top line scoring winger. I better get a lot more back than Staal who is overpaid even with Carolina retaining.

I don’t want to give up Sprong, but saying that Sprong for Staal is bad then I don’t understand. You have to give to get.

 

[mpp9]

If you think Daniel Sprong right now is worth more than Jordan Staal, give your head a shake.

Staal would singlehandedly solve our secondary scoring issues, give Crosby a break in the D-zone and significantly improve our possession game.

 

[Crosby My Captain 87]

Am I the only one who thinks the Pens come away much weaker if they pulled off these trades?

Letang, at his best, is at a level Brodie can't reach. Brodie, at his best, is a good top pairing defender, but I'm not sure he's actually a #1 that can carry a defense corps.

And swapping out Kessel for Puljujarvi and RNH is a downgrade, at least for the next couple of seasons until we see if Puljujarvi can actually become a legitimate top line player at the NHL level.

I'm also not particularly high on RNH. He's closer to a low end 2C/high end 3C, which I guess fits what the Pens currently need, but not at the expense of an impact guy like Kessel or Letang.

RNH has been really really good this year, a legit high end 2C.

I just don't understand why we would a) sell when Letang is at his lowest point, b) trade our best player thus far this year while we are still a contending team. Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Riptide]

I disagree with that. If the bottom 6 was closer to what we’ve been used to we probably add 7-10 goals over the season so far and a few wins which puts us on top of the division.

And if our stars were closer to what we've been used to, we add the same amount. And that's only looking at 2 players, not half the forward group.

2017/18: Crosby, Malkin: 12 goals through 19 games. 7 on the PP, 5 at ES.
2016/17: Crosby, Malkin: 20 goals through 19 games (with Crosby missing 6 of them). 6 on the PP, 14 at ES.

The bolded sums up our current woos perfectly.

 

[Coastal Kev]

If you think Daniel Sprong right now is worth more than Jordan Staal, give your head a shake.

Staal would singlehandedly solve our secondary scoring issues, give Crosby a break in the D-zone and significantly improve our possession game.

And 2 years from now Sprong will be what value to Staal's value?

 

[Riptide]

I said I would have signed Moore this summer as a safety net. I never suggested that he’d be our third line center permanently. I’ve told you all from day one this team wasn’t proactive enough and the few moves we did make were all awful.
So here we are.

No point in discussing this more, we disagree. You think a gm should be commended because he re-signed restricted Free agents, even if two were overpaid. I think that is something routine that all teams do with ease.

Moore has zero business being a teams #3C. It's a roll he could never ever fill. Sheahan despite his flaws, has played at that level before, is young and could potentially play at that level again. Not to mention he's bigger, younger and better than Moore. If you have to choose between the two, you choose the latter every single time. One could never fill that role. The other might be able to.

Dumoulin and Schultz were not overpaid. Did you see what Shattenkirk signed for? Did you see what Alzner signed for? I'm not going to say these guys signed bargains, but they're far from overpaid.

 

[Gurglesons]

And if our stars were closer to what we've been used to, we add the same amount. And that's only looking at 2 players, not half the forward group.

2017/18: Crosby, Malkin: 12 goals through 19 games. 7 on the PP, 5 at ES.
2016/17: Crosby, Malkin: 20 goals through 19 games (with Crosby missing 6 of them). 6 on the PP, 14 at ES.

The bolded sums up our current woos perfectly.

Expecting Sid and Malkin to solely carry this team's offense has failed in every year outside of 09.

 

[Riptide]

It's true that neither Reaves or Sheahan cost all that much in assets, but they do take up precious pro-rated cap space vs other options. That means that JR's options at the deadline are more limited OR with retention, will cost more in assets. Not the end of the world, but something to consider.

By Christmas we can acquire someone with a ~2.5m cap hit with zero retention, and up to 4-5m with max retention. By the TD we can acquire someone with a ~5m cap hit without retention, and up to 7-9m with max retention.

In no way shape or form did Reaves and Sheahan hinder our ability cap wise to acquire other options this year. We may have to wait a bit, but odds are the quality that we're mostly looking for won't be available until the New Year anyway.

Reaves is a relative drop in the bucket - really, the guy only makes 1.1 mil per for being the best in the league at what he does and he can take a regular shift - so I don't have a problem with him. Sheahan, to me, isn't playing above replacement level and makes 2 mil per besides, but he provides some depth that's proven useful while Rowney's out anyway...that said, he is absolutely the most disposable player on this roster for his cap-hit-to-on-ice-value ratio.

I'd argue Hagelin with his 4m cap hit. At least Sheahan can play center and only makes half as much.

 

[SEALBound]

I literally did last night and you said I wasn't allowed to talk about it. This summer I would have offered a 1st+Simon for Karlsson. I'd still make that offer and probably swap out Simon for ZAR.

Does that get it done? No idea.

So...you're trade on how to currently improve involves a retroactive trade for this past summer. Care to elaborate on details of your time machine?

What about Letang for Voracek+Simmonds in 2013? Does that also help us today?

 

[Shady Machine]

And if our stars were closer to what we've been used to, we add the same amount. And that's only looking at 2 players, not half the forward group.

2017/18: Crosby, Malkin: 12 goals through 19 games. 7 on the PP, 5 at ES.
2016/17: Crosby, Malkin: 20 goals through 19 games (with Crosby missing 6 of them). 6 on the PP, 14 at ES.

The bolded sums up our current woos perfectly.

I agree, but I think people are underestimating the domino effect a worse bottom 6 (and significantly worse center depth) has all over the lineup. Add to that the mental fatigue and likely lack of hunger this early in the year coming off back to back championships, plus a tough schedule.

Sid and Geno need more support. Sheahan and McKegg aren't it.

 

[ColePens]

If you think Daniel Sprong right now is worth more than Jordan Staal, give your head a shake.

Staal would singlehandedly solve our secondary scoring issues, give Crosby a break in the D-zone and significantly improve our possession game.

I'll just simply argue Sprong's worth to this team is considerable since we need cheaper players to produce at a high level. That's what keeps this team deep. So we need that. So yes... to this team Sprong is more valuable. To Carolina, Staal is more valuable.

 

[Shady Machine]

So...you're trade on how to currently improve involves a retroactive trade for this past summer. Care to elaborate on details of your time machine?

What about Letang for Voracek+Simmonds in 2013? Does that also help us today?

haha I just said I'd do that trade today. But the larger point is that JR deserves criticism for not addressing the center situation earlier because now it's more expensive. That's not a hindsight argument by the way, because I said that more times than I can remember all summer.

Anyway, 1st+ZAR for Karlsson. Discuss.

 

[SEALBound]

Expecting Sid and Malkin to solely carry this team's offense has failed in every year outside of 09.

Look at the current team stats, Sid and Geno aren't "carrying" the load currently.

With that, they make 8.7 and 9.5mil respectively, they are here to carry the load and they most certainly have the supporting cast to do so.

 

[Shady Machine]

By Christmas we can acquire someone with a ~2.5m cap hit with zero retention, and up to 4-5m with max retention. By the TD we can acquire someone with a ~5m cap hit without retention, and up to 7-9m with max retention.

In no way shape or form did Reaves and Sheahan hinder our ability cap wise to acquire other options this year. We may have to wait a bit, but odds are the quality that we're mostly looking for won't be available until the New Year anyway.



I'd argue Hagelin with his 4m cap hit. At least Sheahan can play center and only makes half as much.

Capfriendly has our deadline cap space at 3.1 (3.8MM if you include LTIR for Rowney). Where are you getting 5MM?

 

[mpp9]

And 2 years from now Sprong will be what value to Staal's value?

Two years from now Sprong will need a new deal. So not exactly a great argument. Until he shows he’s some elite NHL sniper, his biggest value to us is his ELC and potential to score goals for cheap.

Jordan Staal even at his salary is still worth more to us right now and moving forward.

Not that it matters because we aren’t getting him.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I thought Eakin was their 2C? One of their centres is either playing 3C or winger - that's a level of importance to the team where it doesn't necessarily take major assets to prise them free.

I see zero point in discussing Karlsson tbh.

Right now, it's Karlsson-Haula-Eakin, in that order. Lindberg is playing LW on the 3rd line, Marchessault was moved back to wing on the top line. It's the actual order they should have gone in to be honest.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you think Daniel Sprong right now is worth more than Jordan Staal, give your head a shake.

Staal would singlehandedly solve our secondary scoring issues, give Crosby a break in the D-zone and significantly improve our possession game.

Sprong isn't worth more than Staal, but I am really not interested in trading Sprong for a guy making $6 million who will be the Penguins 3C. If we're talking about a $6 million 3C, I'd sooner go after RNH, who the Penguins might be able to pull off without including Sprong due to Edmonton being bad and having a cap crunch when McDavid's contract starts.

haha I just said I'd do that trade today. But the larger point is that JR deserves criticism for not addressing the center situation earlier because now it's more expensive. That's not a hindsight argument by the way, because I said that more times than I can remember all summer.

Anyway, 1st+ZAR for Karlsson. Discuss.

I'd hesitate because of ZAR being included, just because he's relatively unique to the Penguins system. I'd rather have a guy like DiPauli or Simon included over ZAR, which wouldn't be that big of a value difference IMO.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Capfriendly has our deadline cap space at 3.1 (3.8MM if you include LTIR for Rowney). Where are you getting 5MM?

There is callup money that will be a deduction when Corrado and Archie are off the books. Right now they count against the cap.

 

[Empoleon8771]

There is callup money that will be a deduction when Corrado and Archie are off the books. Right now they count against the cap.

Archibald isn't going to be sent down, though. Without including Corrado, the Penguins are at 14 F, 7 D and 2 goalies. That's exactly what they're going to stay at. $3.1 million in deadline cap space is correct.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Archibald isn't going to be sent down, though. Without including Corrado, the Penguins are at 14 F, 7 D and 2 goalies. That's exactly what they're going to stay at. $3.1 million in deadline cap space is correct.

Not if they bring someone in.