Salary cap penalties

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Peter10, Sep 16, 2006.

  1. Peter10

    Peter10 Registered User

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    I m sorry if this has been asked before or if its covered already in another topic but i didnt find anything useful with the search.

    What are the exact penalties for being over the cap? I ve read that new contracts that would put teams above the upper limit would be rejected but what happens if a team is way over the cap? Forfeiting games? Having to play with only 18 players (sending the others down, till they are below the cap)? Loss of draft picks?

    I cant seem to find the exact definition for the fines. Appriciate any help. Thanks a lot.
     
  2. GetPucksDeep

    GetPucksDeep Registered User

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    The amount you are over is applied to next year's cap. Due to bonuses paid to Bondra, the Thrashers were 1.m over last year. Their cap is lowered by that amount this year.
     
  3. abev

    abev Registered User

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    See Article 26 age 121 of the CBA.

    "Circumvention" in plain english means going over the cap. According to what it says, any or all of the following may be imposed.

     
  4. Irish Blues

    Irish Blues Worth waiting for :)

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    Incorrect. I'm not going to cut-and-paste the relevant parts of the CBA, but if anyone is interested, find a copy (there's a link stuck at the top of this forum to point you to it) and look at Article 26.1; that defines what counts as a Circumvention. It's not just "oh, Team X exceeded the Upper Limit."

    The original question is ambiguous and should clarify at what point in time we're talking about, so it needs to clarify what exactly we're talking about.

    If we're talking about going into the regular season, ... no one is really sure. I seem to recall hearing (but can't find a link at the moment - I've been digging for a while) that if a team didn't get under voluntarily by the start of the season, the league would force it by cutting players in reverse order of signing (i.e. the last one signed gets cut first, and so on) until the team is back in compliance; all players cut as a result would become UFA's. However, there's nothing in the CBA to back this up so I'm guessing it's in the League By-Laws which AFAIK are not available to John Q. Public.

    If we're talking about during the regular season ... well, it won't happen. If a team tries to make a roster move that would put it out of compliance, the move will be rejected by the League, period and the team fined $25,000.

    If we're talking about at the end of the season, see the 1st response in this thread - it gives a *very* general answer.
     
  5. kdb209

    kdb209 Global Moderator

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    It is obvious that the examples given in Article 26 - No Circumvention - are directed towards Joe Smith / Minnesota Timberwolves kinds of salary cap circumventions, but the scope and wording of the Article is very broad and the examples are explicitly non exhaustive.

    Based on my reading, a GM's explicit action (or inaction) that leaves a team over the cap at the start of the season would constitute Circumvention and be subject to the Article 26 sanctions.

    The league has no authority under the CBA to void any contracts that were signed in good faith and already approved and registered with the league. The only SPCs that can bo nullified under the no circumvention rules are those where the player was also complicit in the circumvention.

    I do not think terms in league rules or bylaws would be sufficent to nullify a players contract and survive an NHLPA grievence if they tried.
     
  6. Irish Blues

    Irish Blues Worth waiting for :)

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    There could be something in the League By-Laws and we'd never know about it because they're not available to the public ... or it could be that if a team doesn't get under by the start of the season, the League will move to find they're in violation of Article 26. I don't know what the answer is here.

    I tried digging again to find a source that might answer this, I've got nothing. I may make a few calls and see if someone will tell me anything if no one else finds something in the next week or so. We may just have to wait until it happens before we all find out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2006
  7. kdb209

    kdb209 Global Moderator

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    But "League Rules" (League bylaws, rules, etc) are trumped by anything in the CBA.

    This was a point of relevance in the Yashin decision. The arbiter ruled against Yashin, based on league rulings on specific performance going back to the Stein/Zeigler era. The arbiter ruled that because the CBA did not address the issue, and that CBA negotiations brought up the issue but an explicit decision was made to take no action, that the status-quo held and the old "League Rules" were valid and enforceable, because the NHLPA had copies of the complete body of rulings, and thus accepted them by default.

    And note that the league cannot change the "League Rules" without the consent of the NHLPA.

    And I think it's safe to say that voiding a contract would fall under the "terms or conditions of employment of any Player" and that consent could reasonably be witheld.

    I think it is very unlikely that this issue would have been dealt with as a new addition to the body of "League Rules" rather than in the CBA - especially since it can be reasonably argued (and I do) that it is dealt with under Article 26.
     
  8. Irish Blues

    Irish Blues Worth waiting for :)

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    It's entirely possible to write something into the League bylaws that isn't trumped by the CBA and would cover what we're talking about. No, I can't envision what at the moment - but it's not out of the realm of possiblilty.

    I'll make calls, see if I can learn anything.
     
  9. kdb209

    kdb209 Global Moderator

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    It is possible to write something into the league bylaws - having it survive an NHLPA grievence is something else.

    Article 30.1 is pretty clear - "In the event of a conflict between this Agreement and said League Rules, the provisions of this Agreement shall govern".

    IIRC, (my link to the text of Holden's decision in the Yashin case is dead), Holden's analysis implied that since the issue came up in CBA negotiations, had both sides not (in Holden's opinion) agreed to maintain the status quo, just the fact that the issue was argued would have been sufficient for just the CBA negotiations to trump the precedent in the League Rules.
     
  10. Irish Blues

    Irish Blues Worth waiting for :)

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    I could debate this longer, but it still doesn't change the fact that we're both guessing and supposing various things. I'll see if I can get a definitive answer.
     
  11. I Am Chariot

    I Am Chariot One shift at a time

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    So who gets cut from the Devisl first?
     
  12. white_tiger

    white_tiger Registered User

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    That i sthe big question isn;t it:)
     
  13. abev

    abev Registered User

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    IB I wasnt arguing with you that "is just going over". I just assumed that since there was nothing explicitly noted about willfully going over the cap, that circumvention was everything.

    Again, not arguing. But why the heck would there even be something in the league by-laws about exceeding the cap. Why not just put it in the CBA where it belongs? And if there's this item in the by-laws, then theres probably other things. And if there are, why has no one (media) picked up on it?

    Based on the amount of time its taking to resolve this, I have to believe that everthing we are speculating is wrong.
     
  14. Mr. Make-Believe

    Mr. Make-Believe Pass me another nail

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    "Circumvention" to me implies deceit in disclosing salary numbers or other compensation to the league in order to bypass the salary cap. Taking a look at the entire article, I believe this to be the case.

    I'm in a conversation on my Bruins board here over this. Something is definitely amiss here, there's no doubt about it.
     
  15. kdb209

    kdb209 Global Moderator

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    Wow. Resurrecting a two-year old thread. Is that an HFBoards record? Or just an HFBoards DB hiccup?

    But as far as circumvention goes - the definition in Article 26 is VERY broad - refer to my post #5 above.



    And as to actual penalties - well, it's two years later and the answer is still a resounding:

    We Don't Know
     
  16. Bruwinz37

    Bruwinz37 Registered User

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    I knew I would find you here.

    Still no luck on any answer. :D
     
  17. kdb209

    kdb209 Global Moderator

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    OK - so what's the question?
     
  18. Mr. Make-Believe

    Mr. Make-Believe Pass me another nail

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    Nothing!

    It's funny... I think everybody just thought they knew what was going on here, and nobody actually did. Now we're getting to crunch time, and it looks like a couple of teams could go into the season in violation, and everyone is shrugging their shoulders.

    It's crazy to me.
     
  19. Mr. Make-Believe

    Mr. Make-Believe Pass me another nail

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    Where are any of the cap violation penalties specified?

    What happens?

    No one knows. Everyone just knew that you "weren't allowed." Anaheim could be in a position where they say, "Oh yeah? We'll just see about that. What are you going to do? Fire the Anaheim Ducks?"

    It's interesting to me.
     
  20. Bill_Crosby*

    Bill_Crosby* Guest

    If a team goes over the cap during the season, the GM of that team has to give Cliff Fletcher a total body massage.
     
  21. Bruwinz37

    Bruwinz37 Registered User

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    The only thing I remember was when the Devs were over the cap a few years ago there was talk about them having to forfeit which then led them to trade Malakhov and a 1st round pick to SJ.
     
  22. kdb209

    kdb209 Global Moderator

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    The Consensus here is that the sanctions available under Article 26 (Fines of $1M-$5M, forfeiture of draft picks, forfeiture of games, suspension of team employees, etc) would apply at the discretion of the Commissioner.

    Just how would they be applied, OK, everybody now: We Don't Know

    And I doubt that we will ever find out. I sincerely doubt that any team will ever attempt to go there.

    One sanction which is NOT available - voiding any contracts signed in good faith and already registered with the league.
     

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