Ryan Murray = 2nd pairing dman?

[Cyclones Rock]

The gap between Werenski and Murray's offensive ability is far greater than the difference in their defensive abilities tho

And if Z played a 140 foot game like Murray, he'd be better defensively-probably better than Murray. but that's not anything to write home about.

 

[thebus88]

The gap between Werenski and Murray's offensive ability is far greater than the difference in their defensive abilities tho

While these "gaps" ARE debatable, I will say that I'd value Werenski's superior offense a bit more if these guys weren't defensemen. But they ARE defensemen.

I think a line with Johnson-Wennberg-Werenski would/could be a productive line.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

vs. Vegas.

0 SOG (1 in the 8 games he's been back)
+/- 0, but he got the bogus plus for the ENG. Directly responsible for goal against.
23% CF. Ghastly.

 

[thebus88]

And 2 more points while Murray logged many minutes in the 3rd securing the win.

Just wait till he's paired with Jones regularly. When, not if. The "numbers" will look a lot better.

 

[blahblah]

I don't know, I see no real glaring issue with Murray's game. He's certainly not displaying his offensive skills, however his breakout passes are really solid. Certainly not worth a 2nd overall pick, but he's certainly a NHL defensemen. Is that some of the issues that people have, unfair expectations from a horrible draft? Bitter because we didn't end up with a franchise player?

 

[Mayor Bee]

I don't know, I see no real glaring issue with Murray's game. He's certainly not displaying his offensive skills, however his breakout passes are really solid. Certainly not worth a 2nd overall pick, but he's certainly a NHL defensemen. Is that some of the issues that people have, unfair expectations from a horrible draft? Bitter because we didn't end up with a franchise player?

I think there are three groups of people who have made their opinions on Murray known.

1) It's frustrating that he can't stay healthy, which is fine, and understandable. He's certainly a solid player, and the team is undoubtedly better when he's in the lineup, but it's much better to see him playing 82 games and then the playoffs than missing extended stretches here and there.

2) What you said, about the draft. I don't think a lot of people recall that every single top prospect in that draft was injured for an extended period during his draft year: Yakupov had a concussion, Galchenyuk played 2 games because of an ACL tear, Rielly played 18 games all year, Trouba played 22, Koekkoek played 26, Reinhart missed 15 or 20 games. Among players who didn't miss extended time, there were Dumba (who would have been a huge reach at #2), Lindholm (who was a huge reach at 6), and Pouliot (who was an enormous reach at 8). And then there was Filip Forsberg, who obviously turned out fine, but there was also the report that Howson liked him at #1 or #2 midway through the season for which he was universally condemned here and elsewhere.

Then there was the issue of the rumored trade offer from the Islanders, of every pick they had to move up to #2, which I looked at some months ago and determined that there was nothing that was taken in the vicinity of any of their picks that ended up being NHL players. In other words, a pointless trade.

Murray's offensive skills were never Bobby Orr in the first place. He never scored 10 goals in juniors at any point, and most of his assists were either from pinpoint breakout passes or from power play time.

3) People who want to provoke me, of which I really don't care. I noticed last year that the team as a whole began to decline almost the instant that he went out of the lineup, and posted the overall records and stats sometime in the summer when it seemed like everyone was ready to move on and dismiss him as the second coming of Christian Backman's worse brother. I didn't think much about it until we got into this season, when exactly the same thing happened at almost exactly the same time when he suffered the back injury with a rebound coming almost the instant that he re-entered the lineup.

So over time, it's morphed into this thing where either people want to mock the idea that Murray is good, either directly or indirectly, for the purpose of annoying me (which I don't care about) or because it will eventually take on a life of its own in the style of any other meme.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Personally, this offseason, I would make it a priority to sign Cole, and get the best offer possible for Murray. He's a solid defenseman but it doesn't appear that he has the toughness needed to play thru pain. Since he has come back, he has been back to the locker room what, 2 times now. And that's been in a handful of games, not to mention, hes close to playing in only 55% of games since hes made the team. Doesn't matter if he solid or not, if more times then not, his teammates cant depend on him being out there

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think there are three groups of people who have made their opinions on Murray known.

4) Posters who egg the now-redundant conversation on by stopping by every so often to take issue with other people's opinions of Ryan Murray. There may be a subset of these types who also think those opinions have anything to do with them rather than the player.

 

[Monk]

He's a solid defenseman but it doesn't appear that he has the toughness needed to play thru pain.

The rest of your post aside, I always think it's hilarious when people post stuff like this. Like you have any idea.

 

[Maylo]

The rest of your post aside, I always think it's hilarious when people post stuff like this. Like you have any idea.

The Bread man wouldn't recognize "value" if it hits him in the head. "Oh oh, a new and shiny Buzz Lightyear, get rid of Woody, now!"

 

[Crede777]

I don't know, I see no real glaring issue with Murray's game. He's certainly not displaying his offensive skills, however his breakout passes are really solid. Certainly not worth a 2nd overall pick, but he's certainly a NHL defensemen. Is that some of the issues that people have, unfair expectations from a horrible draft? Bitter because we didn't end up with a franchise player?

I blame lacking franchise status on the past injuries more than innate ability. It's obvious that Murray has the vision and passing ability to put up solid points. His shot from the point is weak and he's not going to blow by anyone skating with the puck (although he is a pretty strong skater). He was also totally ready for the NHL at 18 and should have been playing if not for the lockout and the dislocated shoulder.

But that's a lot of "could have been." Right now, I'm happy with him as our #3/4 guy. I don't particularly like him on the right side and don't really like him with Jack Johnson. That hurts his possession more than anything else IMO. I'd prefer if they found a RHD he has chemistry with similar to how it was with Wisniewski. Barring that, maybe Nutivaara, Gavrikov, or Carlsson can make the transition to the right side.

It's also worth noting that defensive guys like Murray tend to blossom later (around 26) than offensive guys. If/when Murray strings together a healthy streak, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

 

[KJ Dangler]

The Bread man wouldn't recognize "value" if it hits him in the head. "Oh oh, a new and shiny Buzz Lightyear, get rid of Woody, now!"

Not sure what that even means , other than a post in a thread having nothing to do with the topic , and just going after another poster . Are you really that mad , About my opinion of Bob not being worth 10 mill per season cap hit . Because since then you seem to appear from the grassy nole and try to snipe at my posts

 

[KJ Dangler]

The rest of your post aside, I always think it's hilarious when people post stuff like this. Like you have any idea.

I have an idea that I see no other player consistently doing this . No other player missing close to 50% of their eligible games . I didn’t see Dubinsky leave the bench after his head slammed against the boards last night . So while I may not have an idea to exacts , the shoe certainly seems to fit , regarding glass man

 

[Hello Johnny]

Barring that, maybe Nutivaara, Gavrikov, or Carlsson can make the transition to the right side.

Nutivaara has played much of this season on the right and has not looked out of place. When both were healthy, he and Murray were paired together with Murr back on his natural side and they worked well together.

 

[Forepar]

Personally, this offseason, I would make it a priority to sign Cole, and get the best offer possible for Murray. He's a solid defenseman but it doesn't appear that he has the toughness needed to play thru pain. Since he has come back, he has been back to the locker room what, 2 times now. And that's been in a handful of games, not to mention, hes close to playing in only 55% of games since hes made the team. Doesn't matter if he solid or not, if more times then not, his teammates cant depend on him being out there

"...he has been back to the locker room what, 2 times now...."

He came back both times. We have no idea if either of those times were for an equipment issue, or required concussion protocol (which should have been imposed on Dubi last night, that was ugly)...or just to stretch out the back, which is typical with a back injury.

You have a valid point that Murray has missed more than the usual share of games in the past. But even mentioning that Murray has gone to the lockerroom 2x since his return, when both times he returned relatively quickly, guts the credibility of your position. It may still be true, but you induce others to come to Murray's defense when your statements go over the top - which the quoted text above does.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

But even mentioning that Murray has gone to the lockerroom 2x since his return, when both times he returned relatively quickly, guts the credibility of your argument.

 

[Monk]

I have an idea that I see no other player consistently doing this . No other player missing close to 50% of their eligible games . I didn’t see Dubinsky leave the bench after his head slammed against the boards last night . So while I may not have an idea to exacts , the shoe certainly seems to fit , regarding glass man

Nope. You still have no idea. Unless you're somehow associated with the team and have inside knowledge, there's nothing you can say that will back up your "he's not tough" statement. He's taken so many injuries yet still laces 'em up, blocks shots, takes hits, etc... that's pretty f***ing tough if you ask me. He's been injured a lot and that sucks. I won't debate whether or not he's injury prone, because that's not my point. To say he's not tough is a cheap, incorrect statement imo.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Murray was drafted in 2012. The CBJ have had 438 regular season games since then. Murray has played in 252 of these. 57%. The CBJ have played in 11 playoff games in this period. Murray has played in 5. 45%.

One shot on goal in his last 8 games. ONE. Noted offensive powerhouse Ian Cole has 6 SOG including a goal (maybe even 2) in his 6 CBJ games despite having far less TOI. Cole is +2 in his games. Murray is -5 during those same games.

 

[mikeyp24]

Until you have had to deal with back issues I wouldn't suggest talking about someone's toughness. It is an injury that is extremely hard to tell someone is dealing with unless you know about it and the pain can be in areas that are no where near the back. Your legs go numb, feel like they are on fire, your hips feel like they are being stabbed. And all of that can happen because it' been triggered or just out of no where. I've just had my 3rd major back surgery in 6 year having it fused this time and people in my life still don't understand that I sometimes can't sit for more then 5 minutes or my leg and hip starts feeling like it's in an inferno. If he had a sprained ankle sure argue his toughness bit until you dealt with a bad back there are things you can't comprehend.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

And 2 more points while Murray logged many minutes in the 3rd securing the win.

Just wait till he's paired with Jones regularly. When, not if. The "numbers" will look a lot better.

Why would he be paired with Jones? Jones is a first pairing defenseman. His numbers might improve then. #3's wouldn't.

Do you also expect Dubinsky to be paired with Panarin?

 

[blahblah]

Murray was drafted in 2012. The CBJ have had 438 regular season games since then. Murray has played in 252 of these. 57%. The CBJ have played in 11 playoff games in this period. Murray has played in 5. 45%.

One shot on goal in his last 8 games. ONE. Noted offensive powerhouse Ian Cole has 6 SOG including a goal (maybe even 2) in his 6 CBJ games despite having far less TOI. Cole is +2 in his games. Murray is -5 during those same games.

Selective stat evidence is such a beautiful thing. It's cute when someone lists 5% of 11 games as if that was meaningful.

Yes, he's missed time with injury. We know that. Thanks for the news flash.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Selective stat evidence is such a beautiful thing. It's cute when someone lists 5% of 11 games as if that was meaningful.

Yes, he's missed time with injury. We know that. Thanks for the news flash.

Show me some evidence of his good play statistically. Be selective if need be. Good luck finding any quantifiable evidence of his offensive prowess. Your dubious "eye test" on his alleged stretch pass ability won't qualify as evidence.

And what is 5% of ll games? As if that sentence has any meaning. LOL

Cheers.

 

[Forepar]

I am neither critic nor fan of Ryan Murray. But the potshots are getting ridiculous.

Any defensive D-man is not going to post statistically good numbers...RM's primary job is to keep the puck out of the net, and occasionally help teammates put the puck in the net. Your post equates "good play statistically" with finding "any quantifiable evidence of his offensive prowess." They aren't the same, and you know that. There are great D-men whose primary role is to keep the puck out of the net, not post offensive stats. I am not suggesting RM is a great D-man, yet, but he is not the scum of the earth that you make him out to be in every third post.

The few advanced possession metrics show that while RM is not a huge Corsi or Fenwick stuffer (CF 48.3% for career, FF 48.8%), those numbers are weighted by who he played with and his role. And those numbers are not bad, actually good for a stay-at-home D-man. And for this season, CF is 49.2%, FF is 51.2%.

His ES D-zone starts are 51.3% for his career, 53.1% for this season. So while not a huge difference, more of his starts are in the D-zone, which will affect CF% and FF%.

His EXPECTED +/- is a -1.8 for his career, a -1.5 for this season. Last season his expected +/- was -3.9.
His ACTUAL +/- is a 0 for his career. a +2 for this season. Last season his actual +/- was +3.

So his presence on the ice was worth a positive 6.9 goals last year based on that stat, and roughly 3.5 goals so far this season.

Some measurement of a defensively minded D-man would would be on-ice GF/GA.
For this season, RM's on-ice GF/60 is 1.9. GA/60 is 1.7

Some comparisons, many of whom are much more offensively-geared D-men for ON ICE GF/60 and GA/60

Subban ON GF/60 3.0 GA/60 2.2
Weber GF/60 2.1 GA/60 3.4
Seth GF/60 2.5 GA/60 2.3
Zach GF/60 2.7 GA/60 2.4
Doughty GF/60 3.3 GA/60 2.5
Burns GF/60 2.3 GA/60 3.2

JJ GF/60 2.2 GA/60 2.8
Savard GF/60 2.8 GA/60 2.8
Kukan GF/60 4.6 GA/60 3.1 (10 game sample but wow if you are into stats - 14th in league, including forwards).
Nutti GF/60 2.2 GA/1.7


You won't find Murray in the stats for goals, assists, points. That's not his game. Roughly 95% of the stats kept, advanced or otherwise, are geared to offense. That isn't Ryan Murray, was never supposed to be. He doesn't play on the PP - and probably shouldn't, not with Seth and Z on this team. Admittedly his 1.9 GF/60 puts him tied for #601 in the NHL. On the other hand is 1.7 GA/60 puts him tied for #101 in the NHL, and the top 41 in that stat are all at 0.0 and all have played 7 games or less. In fact 57 of the top 100 in that stat have played less than 10 games. So among players who are not statistical anomalies due to low number of games, RM is close to the top 40 statistically with regard to the puck not going in the net when he's on the ice.

I'm not suggesting he's top 40. It would be great if 1.9 GF/60 were 2.5 and the GA/60 stayed as is. But he is a solid defensive D-man, and the few stats that might measure that, albeit imprecisely, support that he is very good at keeping the puck out of the net.

When RM is on the ice, the CBJ are a plus .2 per 60 minutes. Same as Seth. Not as good as Doughty. And you may try to allocate the credit for that to goal tending - but then other "better" CBJ defensemen should have better GA/60 than RM's 1.7. They don't - Nutti is the same and he's the only one close. The gap is .6/.7, all the way up to 1.1.

All of the above compiled from the NHL Hockey Reference site: NHL Advanced Stats / Analytics | Hockey-Reference.com

None of the above makes RM better than Seth or Z... but the above is some statistical data that supports RM as a solid D-man in the NHL. I get that may not be what you want, or what some expect a 2nd OA pick to be. But at $2.825M, he's a steal. He won't be commanding a huge increase. And he will keep the puck out of the net more regularly than most. We aren't goal-starved on the backend - we are goal-starved on the front end.

No one has argued that Ryan Murray is or has performed as an all-star. He may never get to that level, probably won't.
But the constant kvetching about a player who has admittedly been oft-injured, for not playing enough games or not having offensive-weighted statistics, has become downright sickening and makes me stay off of here at times. But I enjoy reading and occasionally posting here. So I am entitled to voice my objection just as much as you are entitled to voice your opinion. Fair honest critique of a player, all good. But every freaking post in this and GDT and any other unrelated thread ends up being about RM, to the point of nausea and to the point that many of the good opinions you have get lost because they are dismissed before even read. And the fact that there aren't many statistics to show RM as a good d-man - yeah, what else is new. Stats generally are about scoring goals - and there are some players whose role is not to stuff the score sheet but to keep the other team from doing that.

I know, everyone is entitled to post their opinion - So am I. It's just tiring to keep reading this stuff on a site I'd like to enjoy.

 

[mikeyp24]

I am neither critic nor fan of Ryan Murray. But the potshots are getting ridiculous.

Any defensive D-man is not going to post statistically good numbers...RM's primary job is to keep the puck out of the net, and occasionally help teammates put the puck in the net. Your post equates "good play statistically" with finding "any quantifiable evidence of his offensive prowess." They aren't the same, and you know that. There are great D-men whose primary role is to keep the puck out of the net, not post offensive stats. I am not suggesting RM is a great D-man, yet, but he is not the scum of the earth that you make him out to be in every third post.

The few advanced possession metrics show that while RM is not a huge Corsi or Fenwick stuffer (CF 48.3% for career, FF 48.8%), those numbers are weighted by who he played with and his role. And those numbers are not bad, actually good for a stay-at-home D-man. And for this season, CF is 49.2%, FF is 51.2%.

His ES D-zone starts are 51.3% for his career, 53.1% for this season. So while not a huge difference, more of his starts are in the D-zone, which will affect CF% and FF%.

His EXPECTED +/- is a -1.8 for his career, a -1.5 for this season. Last season his expected +/- was -3.9.
His ACTUAL +/- is a 0 for his career. a +2 for this season. Last season his actual +/- was +3.

So his presence on the ice was worth a positive 6.9 goals last year based on that stat, and roughly 3.5 goals so far this season.

Some measurement of a defensively minded D-man would would be on-ice GF/GA.
For this season, RM's on-ice GF/60 is 1.9. GA/60 is 1.7

Some comparisons, many of whom are much more offensively-geared D-men for ON ICE GF/60 and GA/60

Subban ON GF/60 3.0 GA/60 2.2
Weber GF/60 2.1 GA/60 3.4
Seth GF/60 2.5 GA/60 2.3
Zach GF/60 2.7 GA/60 2.4
Doughty GF/60 3.3 GA/60 2.5
Burns GF/60 2.3 GA/60 3.2

JJ GF/60 2.2 GA/60 2.8
Savard GF/60 2.8 GA/60 2.8
Kukan GF/60 4.6 GA/60 3.1 (10 game sample but wow if you are into stats - 14th in league, including forwards).
Nutti GF/60 2.2 GA/1.7


You won't find Murray in the stats for goals, assists, points. That's not his game. Roughly 95% of the stats kept, advanced or otherwise, are geared to offense. That isn't Ryan Murray, was never supposed to be. He doesn't play on the PP - and probably shouldn't, not with Seth and Z on this team. Admittedly his 1.9 GF/60 puts him tied for #601 in the NHL. On the other hand is 1.9 GA/60 puts him tied for #101 in the NHL, and the top 41 in that stat are all at 0.0 and all have played 7 games or less. In fact 57 of the top 100 in that stat have played less than 10 games. So among players who are not statistical anomalies due to low number of games, RM is close to the top 40 statistically with regard to the puck not going in the net when he's on the ice.

I'm not suggesting he's top 40. It would be great if 1.9 GF/60 were 2.5 and the GA/60 stayed as is. But he is a solid defensive D-man, and the few stats that might measure that, albeit imprecisely, support that he is very good at keeping the puck out of the net.

When RM is on the ice, the CBJ are a plus .2 per 60 minutes. Same as Seth. Not as good as Doughty. And you may try to allocate the credit for that to goal tending - but then other "better" CBJ defensemen should have better GA/60 than RM's 1.7. They don't - Nutti is the same and he's the only one close. The gap is .6/.7, all the way up to 1.1.

All of the above compiled from the NHL Hockey Reference site: NHL Advanced Stats / Analytics | Hockey-Reference.com

None of the above makes RM better than Seth or Z... but the above is some statistical that supports RM as a solid D-man in the NHL. I get that may not be what you want, or what some expect a 2nd OA pick to be. But at $2.825M, he's a steal. He won't be commanding a huge increase. And he will keep the puck out of the net more regularly than most. We aren't goal-starved on the backend - we are goal-starved on the front end.

No one has argued that Ryan Murray is or has performed as an all-star. He may never get to that level, probably won't.
But the constant kvetching about a player who has admittedly been oft-injured, for not playing enough games or not having offensive-weighted statistics, has become downright sickening and makes me stay off of here at times. But I enjoy reading and occasionally posting here. So I am entitled to voice my objection just as much as you are entitled to voice your opinion. Fair honest critique of a player, all good. But every freaking post in this and GDT and any other unrelated thread ends up being about RM, to the point of nausea and to the point that many of the good opinions you have get lost because they are dismissed before even read. And the fact that there aren't many statistics to show RM as a good d-man - yeah, what else is new. Stats generally are about scoring goals - and there are some players whose role is not to stuff the score sheet but to keep the other team from doing that.

I know, everyone is entitled to post their opinion - So am I. It's just tiring to keep reading this stuff on a site I'd like to enjoy.

You forgot to drop the mic

 

[Viqsi]

I am neither critic nor fan of Ryan Murray. But the potshots are getting ridiculous.

Any defensive D-man is not going to post statistically good numbers...RM's primary job is to keep the puck out of the net, and occasionally help teammates put the puck in the net. Your post equates "good play statistically" with finding "any quantifiable evidence of his offensive prowess." They aren't the same, and you know that. There are great D-men whose primary role is to keep the puck out of the net, not post offensive stats. I am not suggesting RM is a great D-man, yet, but he is not the scum of the earth that you make him out to be in every third post.

The few advanced possession metrics show that while RM is not a huge Corsi or Fenwick stuffer (CF 48.3% for career, FF 48.8%), those numbers are weighted by who he played with and his role. And those numbers are not bad, actually good for a stay-at-home D-man. And for this season, CF is 49.2%, FF is 51.2%.

His ES D-zone starts are 51.3% for his career, 53.1% for this season. So while not a huge difference, more of his starts are in the D-zone, which will affect CF% and FF%.

His EXPECTED +/- is a -1.8 for his career, a -1.5 for this season. Last season his expected +/- was -3.9.
His ACTUAL +/- is a 0 for his career. a +2 for this season. Last season his actual +/- was +3.

So his presence on the ice was worth a positive 6.9 goals last year based on that stat, and roughly 3.5 goals so far this season.

Some measurement of a defensively minded D-man would would be on-ice GF/GA.
For this season, RM's on-ice GF/60 is 1.9. GA/60 is 1.7

Some comparisons, many of whom are much more offensively-geared D-men for ON ICE GF/60 and GA/60

Subban ON GF/60 3.0 GA/60 2.2
Weber GF/60 2.1 GA/60 3.4
Seth GF/60 2.5 GA/60 2.3
Zach GF/60 2.7 GA/60 2.4
Doughty GF/60 3.3 GA/60 2.5
Burns GF/60 2.3 GA/60 3.2

JJ GF/60 2.2 GA/60 2.8
Savard GF/60 2.8 GA/60 2.8
Kukan GF/60 4.6 GA/60 3.1 (10 game sample but wow if you are into stats - 14th in league, including forwards).
Nutti GF/60 2.2 GA/1.7


You won't find Murray in the stats for goals, assists, points. That's not his game. Roughly 95% of the stats kept, advanced or otherwise, are geared to offense. That isn't Ryan Murray, was never supposed to be. He doesn't play on the PP - and probably shouldn't, not with Seth and Z on this team. Admittedly his 1.9 GF/60 puts him tied for #601 in the NHL. On the other hand is 1.9 GA/60 puts him tied for #101 in the NHL, and the top 41 in that stat are all at 0.0 and all have played 7 games or less. In fact 57 of the top 100 in that stat have played less than 10 games. So among players who are not statistical anomalies due to low number of games, RM is close to the top 40 statistically with regard to the puck not going in the net when he's on the ice.

I'm not suggesting he's top 40. It would be great if 1.9 GF/60 were 2.5 and the GA/60 stayed as is. But he is a solid defensive D-man, and the few stats that might measure that, albeit imprecisely, support that he is very good at keeping the puck out of the net.

When RM is on the ice, the CBJ are a plus .2 per 60 minutes. Same as Seth. Not as good as Doughty. And you may try to allocate the credit for that to goal tending - but then other "better" CBJ defensemen should have better GA/60 than RM's 1.7. They don't - Nutti is the same and he's the only one close. The gap is .6/.7, all the way up to 1.1.

All of the above compiled from the NHL Hockey Reference site: NHL Advanced Stats / Analytics | Hockey-Reference.com

None of the above makes RM better than Seth or Z... but the above is some statistical that supports RM as a solid D-man in the NHL. I get that may not be what you want, or what some expect a 2nd OA pick to be. But at $2.825M, he's a steal. He won't be commanding a huge increase. And he will keep the puck out of the net more regularly than most. We aren't goal-starved on the backend - we are goal-starved on the front end.

No one has argued that Ryan Murray is or has performed as an all-star. He may never get to that level, probably won't.
But the constant kvetching about a player who has admittedly been oft-injured, for not playing enough games or not having offensive-weighted statistics, has become downright sickening and makes me stay off of here at times. But I enjoy reading and occasionally posting here. So I am entitled to voice my objection just as much as you are entitled to voice your opinion. Fair honest critique of a player, all good. But every freaking post in this and GDT and any other unrelated thread ends up being about RM, to the point of nausea and to the point that many of the good opinions you have get lost because they are dismissed before even read. And the fact that there aren't many statistics to show RM as a good d-man - yeah, what else is new. Stats generally are about scoring goals - and there are some players whose role is not to stuff the score sheet but to keep the other team from doing that.

I know, everyone is entitled to post their opinion - So am I. It's just tiring to keep reading this stuff on a site I'd like to enjoy.

Thank you. You get a cookie.

I've tried to make this point myself in the past (all sorts of stats show that the team is somehow doing better when he's on the ice), but the big issue seems to be that there's no good individual stats that unambiguously show his contribution, and certain critics seem to therefore conclude that said contribution doesn't and/or cannot exist. Which is rather annoying.