Rumor: Russian players in Ottawa Senators, is it real?

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Lmfao, never change Phaneuf.

 

[Cosmix]

Holy do I miss that jersey. Does someone have an in at the Sens merchandising or marketing dept? We need to retire this crap 3D Sen at the end of the season.

I really like that jersey too.

 

[The Expert]

They didn't pass on Tarasenko because he was Russian. That was just a stupid HF theory. There was an overall belief at the time that Russians were a risk to not come over but that was felt by all GMs

The actual story is that the Sens had their heart on Jaden Schwartz but had the deal with St. Louis on the table before the draft for Rundblad. Once Schwartz was gone, the Sens had Rundblad ranked higher than any prospect.

You can pretend all you want that being Russian had nothing to do with the Sens not drafting Tarasenko, but it's been over 9 years since we drafted one. That absolutely played a part of why Murray fell in love with Schwartz rather than Tarasenko.

The first half of your post also makes little sense. The first sentence and third sentence are saying the exact same thing, and St. Louis and Washington have NHL GMs that had no trouble improving their teams by picking Russians in the first round. Obviously because he was Russian implies that they were a risk to not come over (actually moreso the risk was that if they weren't just given an NHL spot they would return home, or just when the going got tough). I don't think anyone thought it was as simple as "they're Russian durr Russians suck."

How is it not true? They have not drafted a Russian in 9 straight drafts. I take the point that there are few Russians in the NHL made above, but the proof is in the pudding. When there are Russian guys, particularly those still in Russia, on the board who are worthy of the sens pick the sens seem to prefer similar prospects from elsewhere.

Counter arguments based on rumours about the sens "liking" someone don't prove anything, particularly in cases where we could have taken those players and chose to pass. (Not saying we passed on Svechnikov because he is Russian, just that this clearly isn't evidence ottawa would draft a Russian)

Burmistrov is also a different situation as IIRC when those rumours surfaced he was already in the NHL. Same with Filatov.

You guys can have your opinions, I see it as true until it isn't anymore.

Well said.

Not what happened in the real world.

Actually yes that's exactly what happened. They had a chance to draft Tarasenko and didn't. How you can deny that is beyond me, he was available and they were on the board when they traded the pick away.

And no it's not "trading up" when the guy was drafted 3 years earlier. Kind of like how picks lose their value a bit as soon as the pick is made.

 

[TrueGrit]

Actually yes that's exactly what happened. They had a chance to draft Tarasenko and didn't. How you can deny that is beyond me, he was available and they were on the board when they traded the pick away.
.

Yes, we also had several opportunities to draft Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Who's to say we had any interest in Tarasenko? Obviously the Sens don't invest much in scouting Russia, a consolation that the Murray regime has made under the budget, this doesn't mean we are opposed to Russian talent, hence our interest in CHL talent.

 

[The Expert]

Yes, we also had several opportunities to draft Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Who's to say we had any interest in Tarasenko?

Do I really need to explain why those comparisons are absolutely terrible? Zetterberg is Swedish for one thing and neither one of them were top prospects heading into the draft.

I am to say they had no interest in Tarasenko because they refuse to draft out of Russia which is mistake, has nothing to do with budget.

 

[TrueGrit]

Do I really need to explain why those comparisons are absolutely terrible? Zetterberg is Swedish for one thing and neither one of them were top prospects heading into the draft.

I am to say they had no interest in Tarasenko because they refuse to draft out of Russia which is mistake, has nothing to do with budget.

What I mean to say is that Tarasenko is arguably the best player to come out of his draft, and 15 other teams passed on him.

Hindsight is 20/20, and if they're not actively scouting in Russia what could be the reason aside from money? Clearly isn't an anti-Russian philosophy in team building. A mistake? Sure, but there is an organizational purpose or consolation that has been made because as a poster mentioned above, drafting from Russian leagues is still a risk.

 

[Xspyrit]

Actually yes that's exactly what happened.

Well I was answering to "I love Turris but yeah I wasn't too happy that we didn't draft Tarasenko when we had the chance" thinking you implied that we traded the pick for Turris instead of drafting Tarasenko. But you know that we traded that pick for Rundblad who became a BETTER PROSPECT than Tarasenko and we banked on that value to trade Rundblad for a recent 3rd OA pick in Turris.

They had a chance to draft Tarasenko and didn't. How you can deny that is beyond me, he was available and they were on the board when they traded the pick away.

I am not "denying" that. I am saying that MANY TEAMS passed on Tarasenko who was picked 16th and maybe more would have if given the chance. St-Louis was ready to take the risk with their mid first round pick as, at that time, the chance that he would come to NA was slim. After being drafted, Tarasenko signed a contract in the KHL and stayed over 2 years.

Sens saw more value in trading for Rundblad, who then became the N.1 prospect in the NHL the following year (at least on HF). They didn't "blatantly refused to draft a Russian", they just preferred another option. Maybe they would have draft Tarasenko if Rundblad was not available, or if he was available at 20th or 22nd and the Sens had that pick... Who knows? At 16th, they went another route.

And no it's not "trading up" when the guy was drafted 3 years earlier. Kind of like how picks lose their value a bit as soon as the pick is made

I know. I was oversimplifying to show that we got a lot value out of this. Sure, Turris is not as spectacular as Tarasenko but he cost a lot less money too for a bit less production.

Turris with the Sens (3.5 per year) : 23 goals, 31 assists 54 pts per 82 games

Tarasenko (7.5 per year) : 34 goals, 33 assists 67 pts per 82 games

Sure, given the choice we'd all take Tarasenko even if we had to pay more money, but it's not like we got nothing out of this, Turris is an excellent player; and in relation to the dollars spent, we have nothing to regret.

NOTE : Before somebody comes back with this... Turris numbers include his first full season and last season after the gumby incident. Tarasenko numbers include his rookie season. Turris is more a 60 pts player and Tarasenko is more a 70-75 pts player. The point remains the same

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Those are interesting for sure but fact of the matter is that if thy don't draft a Russian this year it will make 10 years since the last Russian was drafted by us.

I doubt any team heads to the draft with the mindset they have to draft a Russian because it has been a long time in doing so.

For a number of those years there was major concern Russian players would opt to stay and play in the KHL rather than spend time playing for peanuts in the AHL.

For many teams I'm sure there is still hesitancy in drafting a Russian kid in the mid to later rounds for the same reason.

Today, I believe Ottawa would draft a top Russian prospect if they were in a position to do so.

 

[TheSenator]

Melnyk anti Russian theory???? Wasn't it Melnyk who pushed Murray into signing aging Kovalev. Not a draft pick and pre-invasion but just saying.....

Trying to cover up his bias maybe?

 

[BondraTime]

How is it not true? They have not drafted a Russian in 9 straight drafts. I take the point that there are few Russians in the NHL made above, but the proof is in the pudding. When there are Russian guys, particularly those still in Russia, on the board who are worthy of the sens pick the sens seem to prefer similar prospects from elsewhere.

Counter arguments based on rumours about the sens "liking" someone don't prove anything, particularly in cases where we could have taken those players and chose to pass. (Not saying we passed on Svechnikov because he is Russian, just that this clearly isn't evidence ottawa would draft a Russian)

Burmistrov is also a different situation as IIRC when those rumours surfaced he was already in the NHL. Same with Filatov.

You guys can have your opinions, I see it as true until it isn't anymore.

We wanted Burmestrov before the actual draft, when it came out that we were interested in Schwartz/Burmestrov/Forbert. We had a deal in place with St. Louis if those guys were not available at 17.

We tried this very draft to trade up and get Sergachev.



It's very clear that while they haven't drafted a Russian, if we like the player, it doesn't matter, Russian or not, we will take them.

 

[Bileur]

We wanted Burmestrov before the actual draft, when it came out that we were interested in Schwartz/Burmestrov/Forbert. We had a deal in place with St. Louis if those guys were not available at 17.

We tried this very draft to trade up and get Sergachev.



It's very clear that while they haven't drafted a Russian, if we like the player, it doesn't matter, Russian or not, we will take them.

I get that that's what you believe, however given that liking a Russian enough to pick him or trade the assets necessary to do so has not happened, I don't believe the same thing.

I hope you're right but for now I don't buy it.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fact?s=t

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/rumour?s=t

 

[Bileur]

I doubt any team heads to the draft with the mindset they have to draft a Russian because it has been a long time in doing so.

For a number of those years there was major concern Russian players would opt to stay and play in the KHL rather than spend time playing for peanuts in the AHL.

For many teams I'm sure there is still hesitancy in drafting a Russian kid in the mid to later rounds for the same reason.

Today, I believe Ottawa would draft a top Russian prospect if they were in a position to do so.

I agree that it's unlikely a team goes into a draft saying "I will draft someone from x country" that's not the same as the reverse.

I'd be more inclined to believe it under Dorion.

 

[internetdotcom]

I want the best players available. I couldn't care less where they were born.

 

[BondraTime]

I get that that's what you believe, however given that liking a Russian enough to pick him or trade the assets necessary to do so has not happened, I don't believe the same thing.

I hope you're right but for now I don't buy it.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fact?s=t

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/rumour?s=t

James Duthie doesn't talk out of his ass, he's not a rumor monger or unconnected, especially with Ottawa.

We also never traded for Drouin, that means we didn't want him according to this logic. Unless it happens it's a rumor?

Something doesn't have to come to fruition for it to be fact.

 

[The Expert]

James Duthie doesn't talk out of his ass, he's not a rumor monger or unconnected, especially with Ottawa.

We also never traded for Drouin, that means we didn't want him according to this logic. Unless it happens it's a rumor?

Something doesn't have to come to fruition for it to be fact.

Not unless it happens, but until it happens yes it's a rumour. A rumour can have legs but still be a rumour. Much like Lazar apparently being on a conditioning stint in Binghamton, until the Sens actually draft someone playing in Russia, can't say it's clear they would. Certainly not under the Murray regime anyways.

 

[BondraTime]

Not unless it happens, but until it happens yes it's a rumour. A rumour can have legs but still be a rumour. Much like Lazar apparently being on a conditioning stint in Binghamton, until the Sens actually draft someone playing in Russia, can't say it's clear they would. Certainly not under the Murray regime anyways.

Fair enough.

Rumor has it they wanted Sergachev, even tried to trade up, as told by someone with connections to the NHL and Ottawa.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Not unless it happens, but until it happens yes it's a rumour. A rumour can have legs but still be a rumour. Much like Lazar apparently being on a conditioning stint in Binghamton, until the Sens actually draft someone playing in Russia, can't say it's clear they would. Certainly not under the Murray regime anyways.

Can't say it's clear they wouldn't either. It's not like they never have. If you want to go based on fact. Fact is they have.

 

[JonnyMacSen]

Forget the Russian's, when was the last time they drafted a Swiss player!?!?!

 

[The Expert]

It's not like they never have. If you want to go based on fact. Fact is they have.

Well considering I've clearly been talking about the Murray era (note the comparison to Muckler) yes I can say they never have if you want to go based on fact.

 

[tony d]

As long as the player's good it shouldn't matter where he's from.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Well considering I've clearly been talking about the Murray era (note the comparison to Muckler) yes I can say they never have if you want to go based on fact.

It is fact he did not draft a Russian, although he traded for one.

 

[Micklebot]

It is fact he did not draft a Russian, although he traded for one.

And signed two.

Clearly the players nationality is secondary to the likelyhood that player will help the team.

It's kinda funny that we have people saying until we draft a player, they will continue to believe the rumours and supposition that we are unwilling to draft russians, but they are unwilling to let rumours from fairly well renown sources suggesting us trying to make a move to draft a russian change that belief.

Apparently some will choose to believe the rumour that fits your existing belief regardless of when facts (signed russians Kovalev and Gonchar, and traded for Russian Filatov, brought russian prospects in for on ice sessions prior to draft) combined with rumours (tried to trade up for Sergachev) suggest that there is no unwillingness to bring russians into the fold when they think the player can help the team.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

And signed two.

Clearly the players nationality is secondary to the likelyhood that player will help the team.

It's kinda funny that we have people saying until we draft a player, they will continue to believe the rumours and supposition that we are unwilling to draft russians, but they are unwilling to let rumours from fairly well renown sources suggesting us trying to make a move to draft a russian change that belief.

Apparently some will choose to believe the rumour that fits your existing belief regardless of when facts (signed russians Kovalev and Gonchar, and traded for Russian Filatov, brought russian prospects in for on ice sessions prior to draft) combined with rumours (tried to trade up for Sergachev) suggest that there is no unwillingness to bring russians into the fold when they think the player can help the team.

Exactly....

 

[The Expert]

Signing and trading for Russians already in the NHL is kinda (see: completely) irrelevant to the discussion about the Sens' recent refusal to draft Russians out of Russia. A Russian playing in the CHL is not drafted out of Russia.

The only thing clear is that in 11 straight drafts the Sens haven't selected a single player out of Russia. They also never signed one, like Chicago with Panarin or Toronto with Zaitsev. Nobody has said anything about rumours and suppositions, we're sticking to facts.

If you think a concern of Russians playing in Russia refusing to come over, refusing a demotion to the AHL, or using the KHL as leverage during negotiations had absolutely nothing to do with that... I've got a bridge to sell you.

 

[Xspyrit]

If you think a concern of Russians playing in Russia refusing to come over, refusing a demotion to the AHL, or using the KHL as leverage during negotiations had absolutely nothing to do with that... I've got a bridge to sell you.

So you acknowledge that those factors are part of the reason why Ottawa is not inclined to select russians in the draft anymore? Note than not a ton of russians get drafted to begin with*. Pretty sure the Sens wouldn't not hesitate to draft a russian who already plays in the CHL, as noted with their past interest in Burmistrov, and Grigorenko IIRC, and now Sergachev


* 13 Russians selected in 2014 NHL Draft, it was the most in eight years

Interesting read :

https://www.nhl.com/news/most-russians-selected-at-nhl-draft-since-2004/c-772628

There was a time when drafting Russian players, particularly those playing overseas, came with a warning label: Proceed with caution.

That was due in large part to the "Russian factor," the perceived risk associated with drafting a Russian player who could opt to sign and play in the Kontinental Hockey League instead of coming to North America. A team drafting a Russian player who decided to play in the KHL effectively had wasted a pick.

If you don't understand why that risk is even higher for a small market budget team like Ottawa who needs its first 2 rounds picks to pan out to remain competitive (and have people at the rink, to avoid a relocation), I don't know what to tell you

The first 2 rounds is also the rounds where russians get drafted the most because IF they come to NA, it is because they have the possibility to make MORE money than in the KHL. Marginal players that will likely end up as depth NHL players don't get drafted much because it's VERY likely they will never come to NA to make the same or less money. It's pretty much "top-6 or bust"

More detailed stats about russian draft picks.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=31880#4