Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the wingers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-12 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 10 players.
• Top 5 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 wingers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
Andros , Art of Sedinery , BillyShoe1721 , Dennis Bonvie , Hawkey Town 18 , intylerwetrust , kmad , MadArcand , reckoning , Rob Scuderi , ted1971 , TheDevilMadeMe , the edler , tony d , Ursaguy , bigbuffalo313 , Canadiens1958 , Darth Yoda , Hardyvan123 , MXD , tarheelhockey , unknown33 , seventieslord , Johnny Engine

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 9 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through TBD. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on TBD.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

There are 12 eligible candidates for Vote 9 because of the natural breaks of Round 1 point totals.

***You will now rank your Top 10 when voting.***

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:


Roy Conacher
Yvan Cournoyer
Babe Dye
Michel Goulet
Marian Hossa
Paul Kariya
Ilya Kovalchuk
Vladimir Krutov
Didier Pitre
Mark Recchi
Luc Robitaille
Brendan Shanahan

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

**Please Read**

With American Thanksgiving this week (Thursday the 27th) many participants may be travelling or otherwise occupied. Please respond saying if this will affect your ability to read and/or contribute to the discussion. If the answer is yes, please advise how much longer you think the discussion for this thread should last (normally it would end on Monday the 1st).

Thanks


EDIT: You may discuss this openly or PM me

 

[unknown33]

Roy Conacher was pretty much a lock to finish among the NHL's best in goalscoring each year he didn't miss. He doesn't have much AS selection to show for though and his competition isn't exactly stellar. (position issues?)

The are few players left who were better offensively on a per game basis in the regular season than Kovalchuk, but how much does he offer beyond that?

 

[ted2019]

Anyone surprised to see Hossa this early?

 

[sr edler]

I like Pitre & Krutov, even Conacher & Hossa. Kind of an odd bunch though. The waters are a bit muddy here.

 

[ted2019]

I like so far..
Hossa
Kariya
Kovy
Krutov
Robitaille

 

[MXD]

An unavailable player would make my Top-4.

And holy ******, it feels early for Hossa.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

An unavailable player would make my Top-4.

And holy ******, it feels early for Hossa.

Agreed.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I like Pitre & Krutov, even Conacher & Hossa. Kind of an odd bunch though. The waters are a bit muddy here.

To me, Krutov is clearly the best player in this group.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Roy Conacher was pretty much a lock to finish among the NHL's best in goalscoring each year he didn't miss. He doesn't have much AS selection to show for though and his competition isn't exactly stellar. (position issues?)

The are few players left who were better offensively on a per game basis in the regular season than Kovalchuk, but how much does he offer beyond that?

Someone is going to have to make a great case for me to have Kovalchuk in the top 10.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Anyone surprised to see Hossa this early?

Not really a very solid and long career along with 2 way play and playoffs.

Too bad that 70's Czech guy isn't here for a comp this round.

 

[Hardyvan123]

To me, Krutov is clearly the best player in this group.

I knew this would be your stance on Krutov and while we will agree to disagree he will also be the most divisive guy this round as well...for obvious reasons.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Someone is going to have to make a great case for me to have Kovalchuk in the top 10.

Well just based on offense he is clearly a top 5 guy for this round right?

It also depends how one treats his missed 05-06 NHL seasons between his Richard trophy and a 3rd place in goals in 06.

 

[Epsilon]

I'd be interested to see someone do an in-depth comparison between Kovalchuk and Kariya.

 

[MXD]

I'm... Coming back on what I said earlier in regards to Krutov. I dont see him as the cream of the crop in this group, but deeming him ineligible, as I did for Round 1, on the basis of what ultimately amounted to speculation, was probably incorrect.

 

[MXD]

Roy Conacher was pretty much a lock to finish among the NHL's best in goalscoring each year he didn't miss. He doesn't have much AS selection to show for though and his competition isn't exactly stellar. (position issues?)

The are few players left who were better offensively on a per game basis in the regular season than Kovalchuk, but how much does he offer beyond that?

Conacher is interesting, in that he's a bit of Schriner, Howe, Bentley and a 90ies Left Winger not yet available. Mostly, take some very specific minuses of those players and you have Conacher's minuses at different stages of his career.

But he has very interesting longevity, could score goals, and was very consistent. I dont know what to do with his playoffs though.

Kovalchuk was about to pull an Yzerman when he left the NHL. I don't know how to treat the change, because it was really short-lived. I don't care much about what he does in the KHL.

 

[overpass]

Conacher is interesting, in that he's a bit of Schriner, Howe, Bentley and a 90ies Left Winger not yet available. Mostly, take some very specific minuses of those players and you have Conacher's minuses at different stages of his career.

But he has very interesting longevity, could score goals, and was very consistent. I dont know what to do with his playoffs though.

Kovalchuk was about to pull an Yzerman when he left the NHL. I don't know how to treat the change, because it was really short-lived. I don't care much about what he does in the KHL.

Conacher had 6 seasons in which his centre led the NHL in assists (Bill Cowley x3, Doug Bentley x2, Billy Taylor x1).

Make of it what you will. I know in Conacher's rookie season Cowley was credited with "making" him, after Conacher scored almost a goal per game in the second half after moving to Cowley's line. On the other hand, Conacher proved he wasnt a fluke later, and having three different centres put up great numbers is a pattern in his favour. Especially Billy Taylor.

 

[MXD]

Conacher had 6 seasons in which his centre led the NHL in assists (Bill Cowley x3, Doug Bentley x2, Billy Taylor x1).

Make of it what you will. I know in Conacher's rookie season Cowley was credited with "making" him, after Conacher scored almost a goal per game in the second half after moving to Cowley's line. On the other hand, Conacher proved he wasnt a fluke later, and having three different centres put up great numbers is a pattern in his favour. Especially Billy Taylor.

Any insight on Detroit lines that year ?

Billy Taylor, fourties edition (as opposed to seventies edition). What a tough player to get a read on.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Anybody think Pitre has a solid case for Top-5 this round?

Nine top-10 point finishes in the NHA/NHL plus another two in the IHL (1st and 5th). Now adjustments need to be made for the division of talent between the PCHA but that'd still put him near the top offensively this round. Plus, from what I read he could play defense too, so he's not like Babe Dye.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't see where all these "it's too early for Hossa" posts are coming from. Not that he's a threat to make my top 5 or anything, but I have him clearly ahead of Kovalchuk. But I'd have Alfredsson and Elias over Kovalchuk too.

One thing I'll say about Hossa for now - he was 3rd in All-Star voting ("unofficial 3rd Team All Star") a surprisingly large number of times, a testament to his two-way game.

_______________________________

Roy Conacher was pretty much a lock to finish among the NHL's best in goalscoring each year he didn't miss. He doesn't have much AS selection to show for though and his competition isn't exactly stellar. (position issues?)

For what it's worth, Conacher was not inducted into the HHOF by people who saw him play - he was a Veterans' Committee pick.

As overpass mentioned, he started his career on the wing of Bill Cowley, the man known to have "made more wings than Boeing."

Here are two quotes indicating that Cowley was given credit for giving Roy Conacher's the goal scoring title in 1938-39:

Of course, he was one hell of a hockey player. He "made" more wingers than anyone I can think of. I can remember talking with Lorne Duguid and I said to him, "If you see Bill Cowley, thank him. He kept me in the league." And Roy Conacher � Cowley made Roy Conacher the scoring champion one year. Cowley was the center-ice man and he'd pass it � he'd be fooling around and he'd get them in position and bang! into the net!

http://ventsenator.narod.ru/OldScoresNewGoals/3/TheCapitalCity.htm

Young Roy Canacher can share his laurels with Bill Cowley, the tireless Bruin centre whom sports writers ranked the best in the league a year ago...somehow or other back of all those goals and the rapid rise to fame of the blond wingman lies the steadying and helping hand of the veteran Cowley.

Art Ross moved Bill in between Conacher and Mel Hill and overnight young Roy started to hit the headlines. League statistics of February 5, first after the new line was formed, showed Conacher with nine goals for three months work. The latest records, February 27, gave him 18, doubling his total in less than a month. And back of almost all those goals was the playmaking Cowley.

Bill Cowley held responsible for Roy Conacher's rapid rise

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Anybody think Pitre has a solid case for Top-5 this round?

Nine top-10 point finishes in the NHA/NHL plus another two in the IHL (1st and 5th). Now adjustments need to be made for the division of talent between the PCHA but that'd still put him near the top offensively this round. Plus, from what I read he could play defense too, so he's not like Babe Dye.

Pitre is the player I was most hoping would come up for reasons you said, and I'm glad we get to compare him to Dye.

 

[MXD]

On Hossa -- I said that it felt early. And I somewhat stand by my statement. That can happen with modern players, especially those whose case rests more on consistency and 2-way play and relative longevity. All checked boxes for Hossa.

I mean, I don't see his case for top-5 this round. He might have one. And its not like he's a case of "unsure he's top-60" either. He might be the worst player available this round, or not. I'm trying to come up with a valid comparator for past players. There's Kovalchuk, but it feels like comparing a tomato to a durian.

 

[seventieslord]

Pitre's vsx scores look absolutely putrid, even if you include a couple of IHL seasons - and the IHL was not a top league that competed for the cup. I thought this would be a good time for him, but last round when I checked him out I was surprised how bad those numbers actually were. He's not close to Dye as a regular season producer, and Dye is a guy most of us left out last round.

I don't think it's too early for Hossa. I look forward to comparing him to the Shanny/Recchi/Robitaille class. He might belong, all things considered.

I didn't even have Krutov on my list. I probably should have. Will most likely rank him this round, though it doesn't mean I think he's top-10 among all unranked guys.

Interested to see what the new field does to the case of Cournoyer. He doesn't have a good shot this round, as four clearly better players based on voting are still out there, but he should look better now.

Kovalchuk is a guy we all know is worth less than his offensive numbers. I suspect Conacher is similar in that regard.

at the start of the round, Kariya/Recchi/Robitaille/Shanahan look like studs here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Pitre's vsx scores look absolutely putrid, even if you include a couple of IHL seasons - and the IHL was not a top league that competed for the cup. I thought this would be a good time for him, but last round when I checked him out I was surprised how bad those numbers actually were. He's not close to Dye as a regular season producer, and Dye is a guy most of us left out last round.

Please stop calling things that aren't VsX, "VsX." It confuses people. "VsX" is a specific formual developed by Sturminator that is accessible to anyone and that only applies to NHL seasons after the 1926 consolidation. I realize you are doing something similar for pre-consolidation players, but it is not "VsX" - that name is already taken

That aside, I'm surprised that Pitre would look weak by your method, considering he led the NHA (the NHL under a different name) in scoring twice and has a boatload of top 10 finishes in an almost 20 year career as an impact player.

His detailed ATD profile (http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43652777&postcount=66) shows he spent ALOt of time as a defenseman:

Year|League|Team|Position
1903-04|FAHL|Montreal Nationals|D
1904-05|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|?
1905-06|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|RW
1906-07|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|RW
1907-08|ECAHA|Montreal Shamrocks|?
1908-09|FAHL|Renfrew Creamery Kings |D
1909-10|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|D
1910-11|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|D
1911-12|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1912-13|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1913-14|PCHA|Vancouver Millionaires|Rover
1914-15|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1915-16|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1916-17|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1917-18|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1918-19|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW/D
1919-20|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1920-21|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1921-22|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|D
1922-23|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|D

I'm assuming EB used The Trail of the Stanley Cup as his source