Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Wingers) WARNING POST #435

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the wingers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-12 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 wingers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
Andros , Art of Sedinery , BillyShoe1721 , Dennis Bonvie , Hawkey Town 18 , intylerwetrust , kmad , MadArcand , reckoning , Rob Scuderi , ted1971 , TheDevilMadeMe , the edler , tony d , Ursaguy , bigbuffalo313 , Canadiens1958 , Darth Yoda , Hardyvan123 , MXD , tarheelhockey , unknown33 , seventieslord , Johnny Engine

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 7 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday November 17th at 9 PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday, Nov 16th.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

There are 12 eligible candidates for Vote 7 because of the natural breaks of Round 1 point totals.

***You will now rank your Top 10 when voting.***

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Doug Bentley
Johnny Bucyk
Pavel Bure
Babe Dye
Anatoli Firsov
Michel Goulet
Syd Howe
Busher Jackson
Sweeney Schriner
Brendan Shanahan
Tommy Phillips
Martin St. Louis

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

*PLEASE NOTE: We are now ranking the Top 10 Players, with a target of adding 5 to the final list; however, natural breaks in the points totals may cause the number of players added to be more or less.

 

[MXD]

First and second are...As clear as day.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Interested to see how Syd Howe stacks up here

 

[MXD]

Out-of-the-bat perceptions :

None of the new entrants look bad and is probably an "expected" group, if anything. I have strong reservations about Sweeney Schriner, however, and he appears to be some sort of a weak link here. Would've liked to see another mid 30ies-to-mid-40ies player along him (and Howe), because an argument can be made that they're quite similar.

Firsov and St-Louis should be CLEAR no.1-2 here (regardless of the order).

Is Dye to Bure what Denneny was to Hull? I don't think so, but it's an approach worth considering.

Busher Jackson starts to look very good.

 

[seventieslord]

Interested to see how Syd Howe stacks up here

Yeah, me too. Really interested to see what some of the heavier researchers find on his game, too.

 

[Captain Bowie]

LOL I thought it was a little early for Goulet until I saw Shanahan.

On first looks, Dye is the new addition that could challenge for top 6. I am interested in how he compares to Denneny, since I had Dye higher on the initial list.

 

[seventieslord]

I like Firsov and MSL a lot here. I'll probably end up with Phillips and Howe high as well. But at the same time... how much longer do we deny Jackson and Bentley?

That's six names already... can't see how I'll have room for Bure. Really interested in comparing him and Dye.

 

[seventieslord]

Goulet, Shanahan, Schriner out seems reasonable at first. Joined by... either Bure or Dye. That's what I think now, at least.

 

[MXD]

LOL I thought it was a little early for Goulet until I saw Shanahan.

On first looks, Dye is the new addition that could challenge for top 6. I am interested in how he compares to Denneny, since I had Dye higher on the initial list.

Goulet is really a poor-man Kurri actually. He doesn't look out of place in the Top-8, at all, and is a lock for my Top-10. As far as I'm concerned, he has the "rival brownie points".

 

[Captain Bowie]

Goulet is really a poor-man Kurri actually. He doesn't look out of place in the Top-8, at all. At first glance at least. As far as I'm concerned, he has the "rival brownie points".

He was a consistent goal-scorer during his prime (82-88) but didn't do much outside of that. Has an impressive AS record but against a relatively weak LW group in the 80's (Tonelli, Propp, Ogrodnick, Naslund, Anderson, Simmer, Sutter) compared to RW (Bossy, Kurri, Gartner, Anderson, Ciccarelli, Mullen).

I see a couple moderate Selke votes. How did he compare to Kurri defensively?

 

[Canadiens1958]

About Time

Interested to see how Syd Howe stacks up here

About time that Syd Howe was added.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

goulet is like an version of an elite gartner (in terms of style). but i'm surprised not yet to have seen the other elite version of gartner, luc robitaille (in terms of consistency, longevity, and numbers).

 

[Johnny Engine]

goulet is like an version of an elite gartner (in terms of style). but i'm surprised not yet to have seen the other elite version of gartner, luc robitaille (in terms of consistency, longevity, and numbers).

I gained a massive amount of respect for him in the ATD, mainly due to a bio made by VanIslander. I'm loking forward to discussing Luc.

The only thing I feel pretty certain about is Bentley in 3rd. Of course, that's going to require some extra examination too, especially with a few strong new entries.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I gained a massive amount of respect for him in the ATD, mainly due to a bio made by VanIslander. I'm loking forward to discussing Luc.

The only thing I feel pretty certain about is Bentley in 3rd. Of course, that's going to require some extra examination too, especially with a few strong new entries.

Would you have a link to such bio?

 

[MXD]

goulet is like an version of an elite gartner (in terms of style). but i'm surprised not yet to have seen the other elite version of gartner, luc robitaille (in terms of consistency, longevity, and numbers).

Hummm... Other than being biased towards goalscoring, I fail to see much resemblance between those three players.

 

[Captain Bowie]

goulet is like an version of an elite gartner (in terms of style). but i'm surprised not yet to have seen the other elite version of gartner, luc robitaille (in terms of consistency, longevity, and numbers).

That was my thought too when doing my initial list. Rich-man's Gartner, a small step behind Luc.

 

[seventieslord]

I think I prefer Recchi and Robitaille to someone like Goulet right now.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Hummm... Other than being biased towards goalscoring, I fail to see much resemblance between those three players.

i think goulet and gartner were very similar players, except that gartner was pretty good while goulet was elite. both guys made their livings carrying the puck up the wing and letting a big shot go off from the outside. gartner had better speed, goulet had better everything else.


robitaille isn't similar to either guy at all, except that he and goulet both owned their positions during their primes and that every argument made about gartner's longevity and consistency can also be made about robitaille except that, again, robitaille was elite and gartner was just pretty good.

 

[steve141]

Out-of-the-bat perceptions :

None of the new entrants look bad and is probably an "expected" group, if anything. I have strong reservations about Sweeney Schriner, however, and he appears to be some sort of a weak link here. Would've liked to see another mid 30ies-to-mid-40ies player along him (and Howe), because an argument can be made that they're quite similar.

[..]

Busher Jackson starts to look very good.

Maybe. Regarding Schriner though, remember that Schriner was traded for five other players, including Bucher Jackson, in 1939. He must have been considered pretty good at the time.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm not sure what Goulet has on Recchi or Robitaille at this point. I think he did so well in round 1 votes just due to canon.

I mean, yeah, he's better defensively, but he's not really the type of player whose defensive contributions are going to move the needle for him either, right? (As was said about Kurri last round)

 

[seventieslord]

Maybe. Regarding Schriner though, remember that Schriner was traded for five other players, including Bucher Jackson, in 1939. He must have been considered pretty good at the time.

Perhaps. But at the same time, I don't think we've seen a player yet in this project whose award recognition is so far behind his numbers. We need to get to the bottom of why that is.

 

[unknown33]

Goulet vs Krutov please
With so many Nucks I guess we won't have the pleasure.

 

[MXD]

Maybe. Regarding Schriner though, remember that Schriner was traded for five other players, including Bucher Jackson, in 1939. He must have been considered pretty good at the time.

Jackson was past prime and the Amerks ... dunno, Jackson was a very charismatic man.

Perhaps. But at the same time, I don't think we've seen a player yet in this project whose award recognition is so far behind his numbers. We need to get to the bottom of why that is.

Schriner is odd, in that his numbers started dropping when he joined a better team, giving credence to the theory that inferior teams tend to be inferior because they have inferior players. And Schriner was at an age where he was expected to be in his prime.

And unless I got lines wrong, Schriner was, during his relevant seasons with the Leafs, pretty much the 3rd best scorer of his line. And he was not doing this by being a Kurri, a Blake or even a Goulet or a Bucyk that could actually do something else than add up points (at least, that I know of).

I MIGHT be wrong with the assumption that Schriner was the kind of player who wasn't a "problem", but mostly a non-factor when not appearing on the scoresheet.