Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the wingers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-12 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 wingers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
Andros , Art of Sedinery , BillyShoe1721 , Dennis Bonvie , Hawkey Town 18 , intylerwetrust , kmad , MadArcand , reckoning , Rob Scuderi , ted1971 , TheDevilMadeMe , the edler , tony d , Ursaguy , bigbuffalo313 , Canadiens1958 , Darth Yoda , Hardyvan123 , MXD , tarheelhockey , unknown33 , seventieslord , Johnny Engine

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 4 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Tuesday October 21st at 9 PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Monday, Oct 20th.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

Vote 4 will be for places 14 through 17 (4 places) on the Top 60 list.

There are 10 eligible candidates for Vote 4 because of the natural breaks of Round 1 point totals. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Andy Bathgate
Toe Blake
Cy Denneny
Brett Hull
Aurele Joliat
Jari Kurri
Frank Mahovlich
Boris Mikhailov
Dickie Moore
Teemu Selanne

 

[MXD]

Andy Bathgate
Toe Blake
Cy Denneny
Brett Hull
Aurele Joliat
Jari Kurri
Frank Mahovlich
Boris Mikhailov
Dickie Moore
Teemu Selanne

Quick reaction -- impressions

- That's Habs time.
- That's early for Blake.
- Denneny is a legit Top-4 in that group. Not saying he'll end there.
- The other two Habs left wingers couldn't be more different as far as career profile is concerned.
- Damn shame that Mikhailov wasn't available at the same time as Kharlamov.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Preliminary thoughts on new candidates:

Cy Denneny is an interesting candidate. The best offensive player on a dynasty in both the regular season and playoffs. And something of a power forward too. I had him pretty high on my Round 1 list, but I definitely think he's worth going into in more detail. I get the impression that he's a bit of an anti-Kharlamov in that his stats are awesome but people who saw him play were less impressed - definitely than his teammate Frank Nighbor but I also kind of get that feeling about Eddie Gerard, as well.

Glad to see we get a chance to compare Dickie Moore to Frank Mahovlich. I see it as a classic case of peak (Moore) versus longevity as an elite player (Mahovlich). I had them very close on my round 1 list.

I saw Toe Blake and Jari Kurri as very similar quality players when putting together my list. Probably a round or two too early for them to be added, which means they are candidates at about the right time now. I had Joliat in a similar group as these guys, too.

Whenever Brett Hull gets added, he's going to be the most one-dimensional guy on the list. It's going to take a good case to convince me not to give him one of my two "no" votes.

I feel like Mikhailov shouldn't be THAT far behind Kharlamov, but I had Anatoli Firsov in between them - based on the opinions on Russians who saw all 3. Disappointed but not at all surprised that Firsov isn't an option.

Disappointed that Iginla and St. Louis aren't options yet, especially compared to fellow modern players Kurri and Hull.

On to the tables.

 

[bobholly39]

Brett Hull.

Nice.

I'll wait to see a few thoughts posted by others before jumping in but - I maintain that for "goal scoring peek" - Brett Hull is one of the highest peaks of all-time.

Goal scoring career? Again, one of the best ones, of all-time, although a bit lower than his peak.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 10 finishes in the NHL

When looking at top 10 finishes, please note that it is probably more difficult to repeat as a top 10 finisher in a larger league with more (European?) competition (which is what inspired the proliferation of Vs2, then VsX).

Top 5 finishes are bolded.

Note that many of Joliat's high finishes and all of Denneny's happened before 1926-27 - when much of North America's talent was playing in the PCHA and WCHL - leagues that rivaled the NHL. These finishes are listed separate from the rest and should NOT be compared at 1-to-1. A good estimate is to assume that the NHL only had half the talent and to double the actual finishes (so a 2nd place finish pre-consolidation is actually as good as a 4th place finish if all the talent was in the NHL). But this is just an estimate.

*Finish during 1944 and 1945 years that were heavily depleted by WW2. (1942, 1943, and 1946 were slightly depleted but much less so).

Top 10 Points

Bathgate: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5
Selanne 2, 2, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8
Mahovlich: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 10
Kurri: 2, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9
Blake: 1, 3, 3*, 6, 7, 9
Moore: 1, 1, 8, 8
Hull: 2, 4, 5

Joliat: 2, 6, 8, 8, 10 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 2, 3, 5, 5, 9)
Denneny: (All pre-consolidation: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4)


Top 10 Goals

Selanne: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 10
Hull: 1, 1, 1, 2, 6, 8, 9, 10
Mahovlich: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7
Bathgate: 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9
Kurri: 1, 2, 3, 5
Blake: 2, 3, 3*, 8, 10
Moore: 1, 2, 3, 7

Joliat: 2, 3, 9 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 2, 5, 9)
Denneny: 8 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4)

Denneny managed to finish 8th in goals in the first year of a consolidated NHL, at the age of 35.

I was really surprised to see Kurri had so few years as a top goal scorer.

Top 10 Assists

Bathgate: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4
Moore: 1, 2, 5, 6
Blake: 3*, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 10
Selanne: 4, 7, 9, 9, 10
Mahovlich: 7, 8, 10
Kurri: 9, 9, 10
Hull: NONE

Joliat: 5, 5, 5, 7 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 3, 6, 7, 10)
Denneny: (All pre-consolidation: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

7 Year weighted Vs-X scores 1927 to 2014

A formula for determining the quality of a player's point production in his best 7 regular seasons, compared to a typical #2 scorer in the league those years.

Details here and here

Players with a second number like Toe Blake - the second number is an adjustment for the weak competition during World War 2. It should be considered an estimate (even moreso than the regular VsX number). But it is a more accurate estimate of a player's offensive worth than his number before the War Year adjustment.

Rank|Player|Score
1 | Gordie Howe | 126
2 | Jaromir Jagr | 114.6
3 | Bobby Hull | 107.1
4 | Maurice Richard | 105.7/102.5
5 | Guy Lafleur | 104.9
6 | Ted Lindsay | 104.8
7 | Andy Bathgate | 101.2
8 | Alex Ovechkin | 97.5
9 | Charlie Conacher | 97.1
10 | Bill Cook# | 96.6
11 | Doug Bentley | 96.2/87.2
12 | Mike Bossy | 94.4
13 | Teemu Selanne | 92.9
14 | Martin St. Louis | 92.9
15 | Toe Blake | 92.6/ 85.3
16 | Sweeney Schriner | 91.9
17 | Bernie Geoffrion | 90.2
18 | Busher Jackson | 90
19 | Roy Conacher | 88.8/85.4
20 | Mark Recchi | 88.6
21 | Brett Hull | 88.2
22 | Jari Kurri | 88.1
23 | Gordie Drillon | 88.1
24 | Syd Howe | 87.9/84.3
25 | Jarome Iginla | 87
26 | Dickie Moore | 86
27 | Pavel Bure | 86
28 | Frank Mahovlich | 85.5
29 | Paul Kariya | 85.4
30 | John Bucyk | 85.3
31 | Bryan Hextall | 84.5
32 | Luc Robitaille | 84.4
33 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 84.3
34 | Markus Naslund | 83.6
35 | Paul Thompson | 83.2
36 | #Aurel Joliat# | 83.1
37 | Marian Hossa | 82.6
38 | Daniel Alfredsson | 82.6
39 | Theoren Fleury | 82.3

#NOTE that Joliat's score does NOT include his pre-1927 seasons#

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 5 in Hart voting 1923-24 to 2013-14

For a couple of years in 1930s, we only have top 3 or 4, but for the most part, this is complete.

#Note that the Hart only existed for the last 3 of Denneny's 8 top 5 finishes in (pre-consolidation) scoring#

*One of Joliat's 5th place finishes was pre-consolidation

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|Total
Gordie Howe | 6 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 16
Bobby Hull | 2 | 2 | 4| 0 | 1 | 9
Jaromir Jagr | 1 | 4 | 1 | 1 |0 | 7
Guy Lafleur | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 6
Maurice Richard | 1 | 2 | 3 |0 | 0 | 6
Alexander Ovechkin | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4
Andy Bathgate | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 4
Brett Hull | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3
Aurele Joliat* | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2*| 3*
Jarome Iginla | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3
Doug Bentley | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3
Markus Naslund | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3
Syd Howe | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Teemu Selanne | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3
Martin St. Louis | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2
Bill Cook# | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2
Charlie Conacher | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2
Mike Bossy | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Ted Lindsay | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Frank Mahovlich | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
----|
Toe Blake |1|0|0|0|0|1
Dickie Moore |0|0|0|0|1|1
Jari Kurri |0|0|0|0|0|0
#Cy Denneny# |0|0|0|0|0|0

#some prime years in the WCHL

_____________

Comments:

• Just like with regular season scoring, Bathgate has the best Hart record left.
• Brett Hull gets his record in virtue of his three year peak.
• Moore's record is strange - a two-time Art Ross winner who brought a lot other than scoring to the table, but really didn't make much of a dent in Hart voting
• I'm not surprised that Kurri received little Hart support over the course of his career

 

[seventieslord]

I'll try to get a vsx score for Denneny based on his best 7 seasons, just so we have a way to compare him to the current pack offensively.

I think that he might honestly have a case for #1 here. I didn't have him ahead of most of these guys to start with, but I'm thinking maybe I should.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Summary of my Andy Bathgate post from last time

• Depending on the criteria you use, the best regular season player last round was either Lindsay, Ovechkin, or Bathgate. Which, of course, means Bathgate stands by himself as the best regular season NHL player this round.
• In the playoffs, Bathgate scored goals at his normal rate, but struggled to pick up assists, regardless of whether he played for a weak team (Rangers) or a stronger one (Maple Leafs / Red Wings)
• Dave Keon criticized Bathgate as a poor fit for Toronto's defensive system after he was traded there at the age of 31. (Bathgate did win his only Cup in Toronto, but only lasted two seasons there).

Longer post: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=90277679&postcount=117

 

[seventieslord]

Denneny's best 7 seasons I assigned scores of 100, 96, 92, 91, 91, 86, 85. This is judging him by a tougher standard, because all of these seasons are from before 1927. Instead of the usual benchmark player, #2, I used #1 in every season. The problem with that is that the #1 NHA/NHL scorer was not the #2 overall scorer. In an imagined consolidated 1917-1926 league, the best NHL player would be 1st, 2nd, maybe 3rd once. So the standard Denneny is being compared to is a tougher one - one that basically errs on the side of caution, being careful not to overrate him.

Anyway, the unweighted vsx based on this tough standard is 91.6. Behind Bathgate and basically equal with Selanne (ahead if you mentally adjust for the harsh standard I used).

I think Denneny and Selanne are approximately equals based on regular season offense. Add playoffs to the mix, and Denneny's toughness, and I'd have to put him ahead too.

His scores are not tainted - he was the top offensive forward on his line. Some guys in this round can say that. Joliat, Blake, Kurri and often Moore can not.

The counterpoint is, maybe with arguably the best defensive forward of all-time at center, he was able to freewheel more than he otherwise could have.

factoid: Denneny was more of a goalscorer than playmaker, but strangely he only led a league in goals once, but led in assists twice.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'll try to get a vsx score for Denneny based on his best 7 seasons, just so we have a way to compare him to the current pack offensively.

I think that he might honestly have a case for #1 here. I didn't have him ahead of most of these guys to start with, but I'm thinking maybe I should.

Hope to see it. Denneny is my wild card this round. He could go #1, or he could be out of my top 4 entirely.

I'm thinking Bathgate has to make it somewhere in the top 4 - seems like a flawed player, but his regular season prime just dwarfs everyone else at this point.

Selanne is probably the second best regular season player left - similar 7-year VsX to Martin St. Louis, but St. Louis didn't do much outside of his best 7 years, and Selanne is without a doubt the better goal scorer.

Selanne's international resume adds a nice cherry on top.

Glad to see those of us who prefer Selanne to Hull and Kurri get a chance to explain why (though I'm hoping someone other than me will take up this banner).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Denneny's best 7 seasons I assigned scores of 100, 96, 92, 91, 91, 86, 85. This is judging him by a tougher standard, because all of these seasons are from before 1927. Instead of the usual benchmark player, #2, I used #1 in every season. The problem with that is that the #1 NHA/NHL scorer was not the #2 overall scorer. In an imagined consolidated 1917-1926 league, the best NHL player would be 1st, 2nd, maybe 3rd once. So the standard Denneny is being compared to is a tougher one - one that basically errs on the side of caution, being careful not to overrate him.

Anyway, the unweighted vsx based on this tough standard is 91.6. Behind Bathgate and basically equal with Selanne (ahead if you mentally adjust for the harsh standard I used).

I think Denneny and Selanne are approximately equals based on regular season offense. Add playoffs to the mix, and Denneny's toughness, and I'd have to put him ahead too.

His scores are not tainted - he was the top offensive forward on his line. Some guys in this round can say that. Joliat, Blake, Kurri and often Moore can not.

The counterpoint is, maybe with arguably the best defensive forward of all-time at center, he was able to freewheel more than he otherwise could have.

factoid: Denneny was more of a goalscorer than playmaker, but strangely he only led a league in goals once, but led in assists twice.

Thanks for this. Confirmed what I thought - based only on his stats, Denneny should be top 4. And, as you know, his playoff stats, as the top scorer of the 20s Senators dynasty, are great too.

If there's an issue, it's that I get an impression from reading contemporary opinions that people who saw him play didn't so impressed. I'll explore this later this round to see if there is any merit to this.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Didn't Kharlamov finish 5th last round? Shouldn't be still be up for voting?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Wait.... is Hockey-reference seriously making you fill out some stupid survey ad before you can open certain pages???

 

[Captain Bowie]

Anyways.... Hull and Selanne should be easy comparable. Was hoping Bure would be up soon because all 3 would be a great comparison.

 

[seventieslord]

Anyways.... Hull and Selanne should be easy comparable. Was hoping Bure would be up soon because all 3 would be a great comparison.

Bure is a good deal worse than those two.

 

[seventieslord]

Selanne and hull clearly dwarf kurri as regular season producers. But he clearly dwarfs them in the playoffs and defense. By even greater degrees. So it's not cut and dried. There's definitely a case for Kurri. He wasn't just good defensively - many forget how high he finished in selke voting. He's easily the best defensive winger to come up so far.

 

[seventieslord]

Didn't Kharlamov finish 5th last round? Shouldn't be still be up for voting?

When deciding who to add to the list and who to add to the discussion, we look at the point gaps between them. Ideally we always want it to be four but it won't always work out that way. Kharlamov was conclusively ahead of everyone else while being a nut hair behind conacher and geoffrion. So he gets in.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Bure is a good deal worse than those three.

Obviously we will go deeper into him whenever he comes up, but peak for peak for peak, they aren't far off. Bure just doesn't have anywhere near the longevity, which holds him back.

 

[Captain Bowie]

When deciding who to add to the list and who to add to the discussion, we look at the point gaps between them. Ideally we always want it to be four but it won't always work out that way. Kharlamov was conclusively ahead of everyone else while being a nut hair behind conacher and geoffrion. So he gets in.

Good to know.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Selanne and hull clearly dwarf kurri as regular season producers. But he clearly dwarfs them in the playoffs and defense. By even greater degrees. So it's not cut and dried. There's definitely a case for Kurri. He wasn't just good defensively - many forget how high he finished in selke voting. He's easily the best defensive winger to come up so far.

Does Hull really dwarf Kurri as a regular season producer? Hull's fall off after his 3 year peak is quite large. Hull has more longevity as a productive (though non-elite) player than Kurri, I'll give him that

I actually had significant gaps between the three on my round 1 list - Selanne (gap) Kurri (gap) Hull

 

[Captain Bowie]

Not really adding anything to the discussion, just want to add this cool video I found of Aurele Joliat, skating in an alumni game in 1984, at the age of 83.

 

[seventieslord]

Does Hull really dwarf Kurri as a regular season producer? Hull's fall off after his 3 year peak is quite large. Hull has more longevity as a productive (though non-elite) player than Kurri, I'll give him that

I actually had significant gaps between the three on my round 1 list - Selanne (gap) Kurri (gap) Hull

You might wanna check your list, add I'm not sure that's accurate. Not that it matters.

I agree with what you're saying though. I had five players between Selanne and Kurri, and two between Kurri and hull.

 

[sr edler]

Bure is a good deal worse than those two.

Perhaps by all these Vs2 x VsX x 7 metrics, but not on the ice.