Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Defensemen)

[overpass]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top 10 of the available defensemen
• Final results will be posted and the top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
• The process will be repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
BiLLY_ShOE1721; Canadiens1958; chaosrevolver; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Der Kaiser; Dreakmur; Epsilon; Hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; Hockey Outsider; intylerwetrust; JaysCyYoung; McNuts; MXD; overpass; pappyline; reckoning; seventieslord; TheDevilMadeMe; tarheelhockey; tony D; VanIslander

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

On that note, we hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

Click to read more...

 

[overpass]

Vote 3 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 6PM EST on Monday 12/5 and 6PM EST on Wednesday 12/7. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with TheDevilMadeMe via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM votes to TheDevilMadeMe during the above timeframe.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 4 will be for places 16 through 20 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Al MacInnis
Bill Gadsby
Borje Salming
Brian Leetch
Chris Pronger
Dit Clapper
Earl Seibert
Scott Stevens
Serge Savard
Tim Horton
Valeri Vasiliev

 

[Dreakmur]

Vote 4 will be for places 16 through 20 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Al MacInnis
Bill Gadsby
Borje Salming
Brian Leetch
Chris Pronger
Dit Clapper
Earl Seibert
Scott Stevens
Serge Savard
Tim Horton
Valeri Vasiliev

Serge Savard 10th. That's easy

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

A few quick observations...

I thought Dit Clapper should've been up last round. It will be interesting to see the discussion on how to value his time at forward.

Nice to see Valeri Vasiliev up for voting this early. I don't think he makes my Top 5 this round, but he should next. In other words, he's right where I think he should be. I will post the bio I did on him for the ATD this year.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The even balance of Euro, early-era, 06 and and 1990s-era players is going to make this conversation very interesting.

 

[MXD]

Vote 4 will be for places 16 through 20 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Al MacInnis
Bill Gadsby
Borje Salming
Brian Leetch
Chris Pronger
Dit Clapper
Earl Seibert
Scott Stevens
Serge Savard
Tim Horton
Valeri Vasiliev

Thoughts

- Leetch still last.
- Absolutely awesome to see Stevens and Savard available simultaneously.
- Surprised Horton didn't get in.
- As far as D is concerned -- I really have problems to see how Dit Clapper can be available for voting. His AST records and career at defense pretty much screams "Ken Reardon-with-the-benefit-of-playing-during-the-WW-II". I had Clapper really close to Reardon in my original list.
- While I think there's no room for Vasiliev this round, but he's a very interesting entry that I had just below Gadsby in my list.

 

[MXD]

A few quick observations...

I thought Dit Clapper should've been up last round. It will be interesting to see the discussion on how to value his time at forward.

Nice to see Valeri Vasiliev up for voting this early. I don't think he makes my Top 5 this round, but he should next. In other words, he's right where I think he should be. I will post the bio I did on him for the ATD this year.

Clapper is a round too early, unless time as a forward count, in which case, Red Kelly is probably the 5th best center to ever play the game or something.

 

[MXD]

Serge Savard 10th. That's easy

Ehh... False, one way or another.

 

[VanIslander]

Ehh... False, one way or another.

Nonsense!

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Serge Savard 10th. That's easy

I think you mean 11th, but I agree. He's the MacInnis/Leetch of this round




EDIT: Although IMO not as far off

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Clapper is a round too early, unless time as a forward count, in which case, Red Kelly is probably the 5th best center to ever play the game or something.

Now that I take another look, you may be right. I threw together my original list pretty quickly, perhaps my ranking of him was too high. Look forward to hearing more on this.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Valeri Vasiliev Bio ATD 2011


Serge Savard Bio ATD 2011

 

[Hardyvan123]

Thoughts

- Leetch still last.
- Absolutely awesome to see Stevens and Savard available simultaneously.
- Surprised Horton didn't get in.
- As far as D is concerned -- I really have problems to see how Dit Clapper can be available for voting. His AST records and career at defense pretty much screams "Ken Reardon-with-the-benefit-of-playing-during-the-WW-II". I had Clapper really close to Reardon in my original list.
- While I think there's no room for Vasiliev this round, but he's a very interesting entry that I had just below Gadsby in my list.

I'd be very interested to hear your reasoning on this.

As for Clapper I had him pretty high on my original list as his forward time I compared him against forwards but gave him that "credit" in his career as a Dman.

Same for Kelly.

 

[canucks4ever]

Earl Siebert or Al Macinnis should be the favourites, Earl cant keep getting punished for his weak comp, especially against guys that only have 4-5 elite seasons.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I feel like not enough has been said about Siebert to date. Still don't know where to rank him.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Bill Gadsby is a guy that wasn't up last round who seems like he has a good chance to make the Top 5 this vote.

His Norris record stacks up against anyone that is still up for voting, and he had some very stiff competition with Harvey (runner-up to him twice) and for part of the time Kelly (one 3rd place finish is behind Harvey/Kelly)

Norris Record: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4*, 5, 6

*one 4th place finish based on All-Star team voting before Norris existed


He doesn't have much to look at in the playoff department as he spent his prime years on some bad teams that either didn't make the playoffs or only lasted one round. He does have a 3 year stretch (57'-59') where he scored 10pts in 16 playoff games.


More info can be found here: Bill Gadsby

Note in the linked post that Gadsby placed Top 2 in defenseman scoring 8 times, and at the same time Stan Mikita names Gadsby as the defenseman who gave him the most trouble.


Would like to hear others' thoughts on Gadsby along with any more info

 

[VanIslander]

We are talking about Seibert, not Siebert.

Siebert is a HHOFer too, who won the Hart on the blueline. But he ain't in this discussion.

So, let's get it straight. Seibert, Earl Seibert.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Bill Gadsby is a guy that wasn't up last round who seems like he has a good chance to make the Top 5 this vote.

His Norris record stacks up against anyone that is still up for voting, and he had some very stiff competition with Harvey (runner-up to him twice) and for part of the time Kelly (one 3rd place finish is behind Harvey/Kelly)

Norris Record: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4*, 5, 6

*one 4th place finish based on All-Star team voting before Norris existed


He doesn't have much to look at in the playoff department as he spent his prime years on some bad teams that either didn't make the playoffs or only lasted one round. He does have a 3 year stretch (57'-59') where he scored 10pts in 16 playoff games.


More info can be found here: Bill Gadsby

Note in the linked post that Gadsby placed Top 2 in defenseman scoring 8 times, and at the same time Stan Mikita names Gadsby as the defenseman who gave him the most trouble.


Would like to hear others' thoughts on Gadsby along with any more info

Not really sure about that claim as we have Leetch with 2, MacInnis and Pronger with one each and Stevens who is generally considered, okay by TDMM anyways, as possibly the best Dman never to win the Norris.

Leetch and Pronger played all of their careers against the new talent streams form Europe and the US and Stevens and Mac for most of theirs.

Gasby has one the weakest playoff records of any Dman listed so far as well.

He did have a very long career with his peak in the 50's.

I honestly don't see an argument for him being listed above the 3 guys mentioned above and there are others ahead of him as well IMO.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Not really sure about that claim as we have Leetch with 2, MacInnis and Pronger with one each and Stevens who is generally considered, okay by TDMM anyways, as possibly the best Dman never to win the Norris.

There is more to a Norris record than just wins. Here is the table Hockey Outsider posted last round...

Player | First | Second | Third | Fourth | Fifth | TOP FIVE
Chris Pronger | 1 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 7
Scott Stevens | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 7
Brian Leetch | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 6
Al MacInnis | 1 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 6
Tim Horton | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 6

Gadsby has 7 Top 5's to tie Pronger and Stevens for the most, and 5 Top 3 finishes, second only to MacInnis' 6 and ahead of everyone else. I didn't mean that Gadsby's record was clearly ahead of these guys, just that it is right there with them. In terms of top-end competition, he had the most difficult with Harvey and Kelly, but the depth of the mid 80's-late90's group was better.

Between a very competitive Norris record and some high praises in the bio posted I think it's at least worth getting some more information on Gadsby. I would like to hear from some of the guys who saw him play. How much better was he than the guys just below him? Was the distance bigger between Harvey/Kelly and Gadsby or between Gadsby and the other defesemen?

[TDMM EDIT: Please not the above table is missing another 4th and 5th place finish for Horton - we didn't have complete records of the 50s until recently.]

 

[Dom]

Interesting stat on Serge Savard: In the 72 Summit Series, Savard played only 5 games. In the games he played Canada was 4-1-0. In the games he missed they were 0-3.

Verified here

 

[Dreakmur]

Interesting stat on Serge Savard: In the 72 Summit Series, Savard played only 5 games. In the games he played Canada was 4-1-0. In the games he missed they were 0-3.

Verified here

Interesting is the right word. I've watched the series multiple times, and that stat is nothing more than coincidence.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not really sure about that claim as we have Leetch with 2, MacInnis and Pronger with one each and Stevens who is generally considered, okay by TDMM anyways, as possibly the best Dman never to win the Norris.

Leetch and Pronger played all of their careers against the new talent streams form Europe and the US and Stevens and Mac for most of theirs.

Gasby has one the weakest playoff records of any Dman listed so far as well.

He did have a very long career with his peak in the 50's.

I honestly don't see an argument for him being listed above the 3 guys mentioned above and there are others ahead of him as well IMO.

Don't put words in my mouth. Brad Park is the best defenseman of the Norris era not to win it, IMO. Stevens is second best though. Since my top 5 went last round; Stevens is my favorite for 1st in this round.

At first glance, I have the defensemen in two tiers:

Tier 1: Scott Stevens, Chris Pronger, Tim Horton, Al MacInnis, Earl Seibert

Tier 2: Borje Salming, Brian Leetch, Bill Gadsby, Valeri Vasiliev, Serge Savard

Not sure what to do about Dit Clapper, though I considered him more in the higher tier when I put together my Round 1 list.

And, of course, I'm always open to moving people around based on arguments.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 3 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 6PM EST on Monday 12/5 and 6PM EST on Wednesday 12/7. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with TheDevilMadeMe via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM votes to TheDevilMadeMe during the above timeframe.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 4 will be for places 16 through 20 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Al MacInnis
Bill Gadsby
Borje Salming
Brian Leetch
Chris Pronger
Dit Clapper
Earl Seibert
Scott Stevens
Serge Savard
Tim Horton
Valeri Vasiliev

I added the voting information - this time we are back to the standard 5 days + 2 days discussion period.

Some notes about the candidates this round:

• Dit Clapper is the first player to come up who was not ranked on every list
• Valeri Vasiliev is the first player to come up who never played for a North American club

 

[tony d]

A bit surprised to see Clapper up for voting so soon. Because of his time at forward I had left him off my list altogether. Should be interesting to see where he ends up ranking.

Also good to see Park get a high ranking, as I said before had it not been for Orr, Park's all time ranking would have been higher as he probably would have won a couple Norris trophies.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Earl Siebert or Al Macinnis should be the favourites, Earl cant keep getting punished for his weak comp, especially against guys that only have 4-5 elite seasons.

Even Brian Leetch has more than 4-5 elite seasons and most players availabe for this round have far more than that.