Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Centers)

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
  • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
  • Top 4 players will be added to the list
  • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
  • After Vote 5 (when we have a list of the top 20 centers), we may increase the number of players added per round to 5. Participants will be allowed to vote on whether to increase the number added per round to 5 or to stay at 4 per round
  • If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 or 5 players in certain rounds
  • The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
Vote 4 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Thursday, November 28th at 11 PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Tuesday, November 26th.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 4 will be for places 13 through 16 on the Top 60 list.

There are 9 eligible candidates for Vote 4. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Syl Apps
Frank Boucher
Marcel Dionne
Peter Forsberg
Newsy Lalonde
Joe Malone
Henri Richard
Milt Schmidt
Steve Yzerman
 
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Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
13,354
7,837
NYC
www.HockeyProspect.com
About ten days from now, we're going to click on the "HoH Top Centers" thread and there will be Peter Forsberg...in the top 5...I'm not sure how, but he'll be there...and under the column labeled "Career" there will be that famous YouTube montage of him...there's nothing we can do about it...











Voted.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,673
16,395
Three of the newest entries go directly at the bottom my rankings.

And then, there's Boucher, who's prima facie just out or just in my top-4. Let's see how it goes from here.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
Preliminary thoughts

Despite Forsberg's rep as the most overrated player on hfboards ever, I really don't think that's true anymore. Seems the latest flavors to be overrated are Bure and Lindros, while Forsberg is more or less rated where he should be. Anyway, on my initial list, I had Forsberg and Apps back to back - saw them both as guys with short but dominant careers who were both excellent in the playoffs. Completely different styles of players though - Apps the much better goal scorer and Forsberg much better defensively.

Three of the newest entries go directly at the bottom my rankings.

And then, there's Boucher, who's prima facie just out or just in my top-4. Let's see how it goes from here.

Surprised to see a Canadiens fan underrate Henri Richard this much. Henri is as close to a lock as any for my top 4 and has a good shot at my #1 this round. At first glance, Schmidt and Yzerman are the other guys who look like they have a shot at my #1, though I'm becoming less and less impressed with Yzerman the more I look at his career objectively - his record as a top 20 scorer is still fairly thin for this level and most of that was before he became a two-way player.

Other than Richard, Boucher is the other newcomer I'm most interested in. Could he make my top 4? It's possible, not sure.

We now have a chance to do a more detailed comparison between Lalonde and Malone. Lalonde should be ranked ahead, but how much?

Edit: I have two long posts on Henri Richard almost ready to go - will post tonight or tomorrow.
 
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jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
7,414
6,736
Regina, Saskatchewan
My top 4 is looking like Yzerman, Malone, and one of Lalond/Schmidt/Apps

Quite surprised to see Forsberg in. I thought I was being generous by having him at 27. Looks like he's a lock for under 20.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,848
6,291
Quite surprised to see Forsberg in. I thought I was being generous by having him at 27. Looks like he's a lock for under 20.

I didn't have Forsberg top 20 on my initial list, but I kind of like to see him here. He was a dominant player. I don't know why he would be "a lock" for top 20, seems to be as many against him as there is for him. There's 12 on the list already, and 9 in this round, so 21 players thus far. He looks to be the first european trained center on the list though.

popcorn.gif
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
NHL All-Star Teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) 1930-31 to 2012-13

3rd Teams are unofficial, but derived from the same voting that gave the 1st and 2nd Teams.

Player|First|Second|Third|Total
Wayne Gretzky | 8 | 7 | 1 | 16
Jean Beliveau | 6 | 4 | 1 | 11
Mario Lemieux | 5 | 4 | 0 | 9
Stan Mikita | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Phil Esposito | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Bobby Clarke | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7
Bill Cowley | 4 | 1 | 1 | 6
Syl Apps | 2 | 3 | 1 | 6
Milt Schmidt | 3 | 1 | 2 | 6
Henri Richard | 1 | 3 | 2 | 6
Norm Ullman | 1 | 1 | 4 | 6
Ted Kennedy | 0 | 3 | 3 | 6
Elmer Lach | 3 | 2 | 0 | 5
Joe Sakic | 3 | 0 | 2 | 5
Marcel Dionne | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Bryan Trottier | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Sidney Crosby | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Joe Thornton | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Gilbert Perreault | 0 | 2 | 3 | 5
Peter Forsberg | 3 | 0 | 1 | 4
Frank Boucher * | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Hooley Smith* | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Max Bentley | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Dave Keon | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Steven Stamkos |0 | 2 | 2 | 4
...
Steve Yzerman | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3

Note on Frank Boucher:

He was 29 years old in 1930-31 and the majority of his prime was before the official All-Star Teams. We do know that he was a 2nd Team AS on the GM-voted unofficial 1928 All-Star Team, but under any form of modern points system, he would have been 3rd Team behind Morenz and Nighbor.

Note on Henri Richard:

The writers who vote on Post-Season All Star Teams do not like voting for 2 centers from the same team. In fact, since the All-Star Teams were created at the end of the 1931 season, the two official center spots have been taken by teammates only 3 times - all of them by Jean Beliveau and Henri Richard (in 1958, 1959, and 1961). For a modern example, neither Forsberg or Sakic could make it onto the 2nd Team when the other was on the 1st Team. Neither could Crosby and Malkin.

Richard's record is awfully impressive considering he was competing with Jean Beliveau from his own team.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
I didn't have Forsberg top 20 on my initial list, but I kind of like to see him here. He was a dominant player. I don't know why he would be "a lock" for top 20, seems to be as many against him as there is for him. There's 12 on the list already, and 9 in this round, so 21 players thus far. He looks to be the first european trained center on the list though.

popcorn.gif

Forsberg comes in highly to IMO, huge impact player, great in the playoffs, excellent 2 way guy, in terms of impact.

Guys shrugging him off as a lock for their bottom 4...would be nice to have an open mind about it as his case is strong and huge.

Hopefully guys will give him credit for all of his accomplishments...just like they did Mario at 2nd and Orr in the top 60 Dman project.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Forsberg comes in hihly to IMO, huge imopact player, great in the playoffs, excellent 2 way guy, in terms of impact.

Guys shrugging him off as a lock for their bottom 4...would be nice to have an open mind about it as his case is strong and huge.

Well, if you're a "career guy," Forsberg should be a lock for your bottom 4. The case for Forsberg is all peak.

I'm probably going to have Forsberg ahead of Dionne and Malone, at least.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
NHL All-Star Teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) 1930-31 to 2012-13

3rd Teams are unofficial, but derived from the same voting that gave the 1st and 2nd Teams.

Player|First|Second|Third|Total
Wayne Gretzky | 8 | 7 | 1 | 16
Jean Beliveau | 6 | 4 | 1 | 11
Mario Lemieux | 5 | 4 | 0 | 9
Stan Mikita | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Phil Esposito | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Bobby Clarke | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7
Bill Cowley | 4 | 1 | 1 | 6
Syl Apps | 2 | 3 | 1 | 6
Milt Schmidt | 3 | 1 | 2 | 6
Henri Richard | 1 | 3 | 2 | 6
Norm Ullman | 1 | 1 | 4 | 6
Ted Kennedy | 0 | 3 | 3 | 6
Elmer Lach | 3 | 2 | 0 | 5
Joe Sakic | 3 | 0 | 2 | 5
Marcel Dionne | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Bryan Trottier | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Sidney Crosby | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Joe Thornton | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Gilbert Perreault | 0 | 2 | 3 | 5
Peter Forsberg | 3 | 0 | 1 | 4
Frank Boucher * | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Hooley Smith* | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Max Bentley | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Dave Keon | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Steven Stamkos |0 | 2 | 2 | 4
...
Steve Yzerman | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3

Note on Frank Boucher:

He was 29 years old in 1930-31 and the majority of his prime was before the official All-Star Teams. We do know that he was a 2nd Team AS on the GM-voted unofficial 1928 All-Star Team, but under any form of modern points system, he would have been 3rd Team behind Morenz and Nighbor.

Note on Henri Richard:

The writers who vote on Post-Season All Star Teams do not like voting for 2 centers from the same team. In fact, since the All-Star Teams were created at the end of the 1931 season, the two official center spots have been taken by teammates only 3 times - all of them by Jean Beliveau and Henri Richard (in 1958, 1959, and 1961). For a modern example, neither Forsberg or Sakic could make it onto the 2nd Team when the other was on the 1st Team. Neither could Crosby and Malkin.

Richard's record is awfully impressive considering he was competing with Jean Beliveau from his own team.

Is Richards resume really all that impressive? It was in a 6 team league, does he face teh competion that Steve Yzerman did in his career, or have the supporting cast Steve did early on?

It's a metric to be sure but different guys played in vastly different times too.

Forsberg and Boucher are tied here but are they really all that close overall?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Is Richards resume really all that impressive? It was in a 6 team league, does he face teh competion that Steve Yzerman did in his career, or have the supporting cast Steve did early on?

It's a metric to be sure but different guys played in vastly different times too.

Forsberg and Boucher are tied here but are they really all that close overall?

When Richard was a 2nd Team All Star, the guys ahead of him were Beliveau twice and Mikita once. No Gretzky/Lemieux, but certainly stronger than average.

When you consider Boucher's entire career (basically nothing he did in his 20s is reflected in the AS Teams), he kills Forsberg in career value, at least.
 

matnor

Registered User
Oct 3, 2009
512
3
Boston
Is Richards resume really all that impressive? It was in a 6 team league, does he face teh competion that Steve Yzerman did in his career, or have the supporting cast Steve did early on?

It's a metric to be sure but different guys played in vastly different times too.

Forsberg and Boucher are tied here but are they really all that close overall?

Sometimes there is reason to be sceptic about using, for instance, top-10 point finishes across eras because a star player is more likely to get more top finishes in a 6 team league than in a 30 team league. However, this implies that, at least relative to other O6-players, there are players who get less top-10 finishes in a 6 team league. It seems to me that Henri Richard might be such a player. In a 30 team league he would be an undisputed number one center and get all the opportunity in the world to produce. On the O6 Canadiens on the other hand he probably had less opportunities to produce. I'm not an expert on that era so I'll leave it to others to discuss it (and I'm not even a voter) but I think it needs to be taken into account.
 

thom

Registered User
Mar 6, 2012
2,261
8
Henri is one of the most difficult players to rate.Scotty Bowman and Dick Irvin Jr have him high but sports writers such as AL Strachan things he was way over rated.Al covered the habs for most of 70s.Now Al might be biased because of what Henri Richard said about a anglo coach in early 70s.Mcneil led habs to sc but death Threats to Mcneil led coach to resign.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
Syl Apps
Frank Boucher
Marcel Dionne
Peter Forsberg
Newsy Lalonde
Joe Malone
Henri Richard
Milt Schmidt
Steve Yzerman

So far, it would be....
1. Apps
2. Dionne
3. Yzerman
4. ?
 

matnor

Registered User
Oct 3, 2009
512
3
Boston
As someone who was a big admirer of Forsberg and grew up watching him carry my favourite MoDo Hockey to the finals in '94, few topics make me so sad to see discussed as him on this board. Yes, he was severely overrated by some, not the least by my fellow Swedes, but nowadays it seems that as soon as his name is brought up in a discussion, a lot of people feel the need to proclaim how overrated he is. This has lead him to be, not underrated, but rather misunderstood. A common opinion seems to be that Forsberg had a short but unbelievably high peak that was cut short due to injuries. I would rather say this: Forsberg's peak was good but not exceptional but his prime as a point producer, even without giving him any credit for games missed, was longer than many comparable star players'. From 95/96 to 05/06 he scored at a top-10 pace all but one season for at total of 544 games.* This is more games than for instance Trottier (452 games) and Yzerman (524). He also played a lot of playoff games at a really high level so his prime shouldn't really leave anyone wanting. Obviously, if you value career rather than prime then his resume is lacking (personally I would consider putting Crosby at this point ahead or equal to Forsberg, but then I don't really care for career value at all...)

*You could make the argument that he was able to sustain a higher ppg due to playing fewer games, but if you look at his career, there is nothing that suggests this to be true.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
Well, if you're a "career guy," Forsberg should be a lock for your bottom 4. The case for Forsberg is all peak.

I'm probably going to have Forsberg ahead of Dionne and Malone, at least.

Well longevity at a high level does count but Peter was an imapct player in the NHL from day 1 and over the same period of time as important, heck maybe even more important than Joe on those Avs teams in the playoffs.

Peter actually played more NHL games (regular season and playoffs) than either Orr or Mario and has that Swedish top divsion resume as well,

Peter has a strong case for top 4 this round if people view him fairly.
 

matnor

Registered User
Oct 3, 2009
512
3
Boston
Well longevity at a high level does count but Peter was an imapct player in the nHL from day 1 and over the same period of time as important, heck maybe even more important than Joe on those Avs teams in the playoffs.

Peter actually played more NHL games (regular season and playoffs) than either Orr or Mario and has that Swedish top divsion resume as well,

Peter has a strong case for top 4 this round if people view him fairly.

Lemieux played 163 more NHL games than Forsberg including playoffs.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
Well longevity at a high level does count but Peter was an imapct player in the NHL from day 1 and over the same period of time as important, heck maybe even more important than Joe on those Avs teams in the playoffs.

Peter actually played more NHL games (regular season and playoffs) than either Orr or Mario and has that Swedish top divsion resume as well,

Peter has a strong case for top 4 this round if people view him fairly.

Swedish top division? We're talking about the top 16 centers of all-time and you bring up Swedish top division?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
As someone who was a big admirer of Forsberg and grew up watching him carry my favourite MoDo Hockey to the finals in '94, few topics make me so sad to see discussed as him on this board. Yes, he was severely overrated by some, not the least by my fellow Swedes, but nowadays it seems that as soon as his name is brought up in a discussion, a lot of people feel the need to proclaim how overrated he is. This has lead him to be, not underrated, but rather misunderstood. A common opinion seems to be that Forsberg had a short but unbelievably high peak that was cut short due to injuries. I would rather say this: Forsberg's peak was good but not exceptional but his prime as a point producer, even without giving him any credit for games missed, was longer than many comparable star players'. From 95/96 to 05/06 he scored at a top-10 pace all but one season for at total of 544 games.* This is more games than for instance Trottier (452 games) and Yzerman (524). He also played a lot of playoff games at a really high level so his prime shouldn't really leave anyone wanting. Obviously, if you value career rather than prime then his resume is lacking (personally I would consider putting Crosby at this point ahead or equal to Forsberg, but then I don't really care for career value at all...)

*You could make the argument that he was able to sustain a higher ppg due to playing fewer games, but if you look at his career, there is nothing that suggests this to be true.

Forsberg vs Yzerman - would someone dare to make the comparison?
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
14,522
3,360
As someone who was a big admirer of Forsberg and grew up watching him carry my favourite MoDo Hockey to the finals in '94, few topics make me so sad to see discussed as him on this board. Yes, he was severely overrated by some, not the least by my fellow Swedes, but nowadays it seems that as soon as his name is brought up in a discussion, a lot of people feel the need to proclaim how overrated he is. This has lead him to be, not underrated, but rather misunderstood. A common opinion seems to be that Forsberg had a short but unbelievably high peak that was cut short due to injuries. I would rather say this: Forsberg's peak was good but not exceptional but his prime as a point producer, even without giving him any credit for games missed, was longer than many comparable star players'. From 95/96 to 05/06 he scored at a top-10 pace all but one season for at total of 544 games.* This is more games than for instance Trottier (452 games) and Yzerman (524). He also played a lot of playoff games at a really high level so his prime shouldn't really leave anyone wanting. Obviously, if you value career rather than prime then his resume is lacking (personally I would consider putting Crosby at this point ahead or equal to Forsberg, but then I don't really care for career value at all...)

*You could make the argument that he was able to sustain a higher ppg due to playing fewer games, but if you look at his career, there is nothing that suggests this to be true.

The problem with this thinking is that it does indirectly give him credit by making it due to "pace". I do think that the mileage is a factor.

During their primes, Yzerman and Trottier, for example, had 6 seasons where they were in fact top 10. Not on pace.

And I daresay against better competition.

Forsberg 5. Which is actually impressive for a guy who only had about the same number of close to full seasons.

However, some of them are in a pretty weak forward crop. (01 and 03 especially).
 

matnor

Registered User
Oct 3, 2009
512
3
Boston
Swedish top division? We're talking about the top 16 centers of all-time and you bring up Swedish top division?

I agree with you, but in fairness, people seem to think a 60-70 point season in the NHL adds to a player's resume and Forsberg was certainly capable of putting up that in 93/94.
 

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