Round 2, Vote 3 (HOH Top Defensemen)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top 10 of the available defensemen
• Final results will be posted and the top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
• The process will be repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
BiLLY_ShOE1721; Canadiens1958; chaosrevolver; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Der Kaiser; Dreakmur; Epsilon; Hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; Hockey Outsider; intylerwetrust; JaysCyYoung; McNuts; MXD; overpass; pappyline; reckoning; seventieslord; TheDevilMadeMe; tarheelhockey; tony D; VanIslander

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

On that note, we hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 3 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 6PM EST on Monday 11/28 and 6PM EST on Wednesday 11/30. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with me via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM votes to me during the above timeframe. I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 3 will be for places 11 through 15 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Francis "King" Clancy
Sprague Cleghorn
Paul Coffey
Tim Horton
Brian Leetch
Al MacInnis
Brad Park
Pierre Pilote
Chris Pronger
Earl Seibert
Scott Stevens

Note a couple of changes this round: We have expanded the pool of candidates to 11. We have also lengthened this round to 9 days from the traditional 7 (and lengthened the non-vote period from 5 to 7 days) to accommodate the Thanksgiving holiday in the US.

 

[MXD]

Vote 3 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 6PM EST on Monday 11/28 and 6PM EST on Wednesday 11/30. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with me via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM votes to me during the above timeframe. I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 3 will be for places 11 through 15 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Francis "King" Clancy
Sprague Cleghorn
Paul Coffey
Tim Horton
Brian Leetch
Al MacInnis
Brad Park
Pierre Pilote
Chris Pronger
Earl Seibert
Scott Stevens

Note a couple of changes this round: We have expanded the pool of candidates to 11. We have also lengthened this round to 9 days from the traditional 7 (and lengthened the non-vote period from 5 to 7 days) to accommodate the Thanksgiving holiday in the US.

Awesome! My guys ranked 11 to 19 are there!

 

[plusandminus]

Ah, there they are, the candidates this time.
No Salming. I surely think he would place ahead of Pronger and perhaps Leetch. Maybe next round.
Otherwise, expected names. I don't know anything about Cleghorn.
Now, I'll watch Crosby's return.

 

[reckoning]

I'm shocked that Dit Clapper hasn't come up yet. First major surprise for me in the voting. Could this be due to some not thinking of him as a defenceman?

 

[Epsilon]

I'm shocked that Dit Clapper hasn't come up yet. First major surprise for me in the voting. Could this be due to some not thinking of him as a defenceman?

Same here, and would imagine that's the case.

Leetch is appearing a full round too early. He's definitely going to be last on my list unless I hear a compelling argument that Pronger should be behind him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Leetch is appearing a full round too early. He's definitely going to be last on my list unless I hear a compelling argument that Pronger should be behind him.

Agree. Brian Leetch is basically the Al MacInnis of this round in my personal opinion - great defenseman, but appears one round too early.

I think that at his best, Leetch was every bit as good as Stevens, MacInnis, or Pronger (who I rank in the same tier), but his prime was just so short that I have to rank him a tier below them.

 

[MXD]

I'm shocked that Dit Clapper hasn't come up yet. First major surprise for me in the voting. Could this be due to some not thinking of him as a defenceman?

Well, Clapper not being a D-Men for a part of his career certainly had some impact on his ranking.

 

[overpass]

I don't know anything about Cleghorn.

Cleghorn was a top offensive and defensive defenceman from the 1910s and 1920s.

He was also an very intimidating and violent player. Eddie Shore and Chris Chelios were pushovers when compared to Cleghorn. Those hockey fans who hate Bobby Clarke for his vicious cheap shots would certainly not have been fans of Sprague Cleghorn.

He's the first pre-consolidation defenceman to come up for voting. Meaning that for most of Cleghorn's prime, from about 1910 to 1925, the best hockey players from across Canada were split between the NHA/NHL and the PCHA out west. Cleghorn was probably the best defenceman of that era.

Legends of Hockey"

A remarkably talented and fierce competitor, Henry William Sprague Cleghorn was admired, despised and feared during his playing days. Wherever he skated, Cleghorn served as the anchor of his team's defense or occasionally posed an offensive threat as a forward. His on-ice accomplishments and physical style of play made him a virtual archetype of the hard-nosed star of hockey's early days.

...

Cleghorn was heavily influenced by his teammate Fred "Cyclone" Taylor. Cleghorn rushed forward with the puck in much the same fashion as the illustrious defender and was one of the earliest incarnations of an offensive defenseman.

...

Cleghorn was a major factor in Ottawa's Stanley Cup triumphs in 1920 and 1921. During the 1920 championship series against the Seattle Metropolitans, he formed an effective backline tandem with fellow star Eddie Gerard. Although Cleghorn spent most of the 1920-21 regular season with the Toronto St. Patricks, he rejoined Ottawa in time to be a part of the squad's Stanley Cup triumph over Vancouver in a hotly contested and often violent championship series.

Following the 1921 Cup triumph with Ottawa, Cleghorn returned to Montreal to suit up for the Canadiens. Teamed with Billy Coutu, the Canadiens had what was arguably the most feared defensive tandem in hockey at that time. After he attacked Ottawa defenseman Lionel Hitchman in the 1923 playoffs, Cleghorn was suspended by team owner Leo Dandurand, who described his player's actions as "befitting an animal."

...

Over his 16-year career in the NHA and the NHL, Cleghorn accumulated 169 goals, mostly from the defense position. At the time of his retirement he trailed only Harry Cameron among defenders on the all-time scoring list in the pro leagues. His goal contribution and competitive nature were key components to the success of every team he played on.

As well known as he was for his speculative rushes on offense, Cleghorn was lauded for his play even when he didn't have the puck. Many of the game's top forwards were less inclined to venture near a net guarded by a tough defender. But Cleghorn wasn't a mere bully; he was respected for exceptional defensive play that was considered to be at the same level as such stars as Eddie Gerard and George Boucher.

Our History (Montreal Canadiens):

Skill and skulduggery were the hallmarks of Sprague Cleghorn’s 20-year career in professional hockey. A Montreal native, the rugged defenseman was among the meanest players of his era, consistently one of the team leaders in both scoring and penalty minutes.

Cleghorn began his pro career with the NHA’s Renfrew Millionaires and then moved back to his hometown, suiting up as a member of the Wanderers for six seasons. He developed quickly, becoming an excellent defenseman both in his own end and when leading the rush up the ice.

Quick-tempered and fiercely competitive, “Peg†as he was known to his friends, gave no impression through his play that he was at all familiar with the rules of hockey. His stick, as often as not, was put to use on opponents rather than the puck, making his side of the ice an area to be avoided if at all possible.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I'm shocked that Dit Clapper hasn't come up yet. First major surprise for me in the voting. Could this be due to some not thinking of him as a defenceman?

Agree with this, I had him rounding out my Top 15. People treating his time at forward differently is the logical explanation as to why he's not here.


I also agree with the some of the other comments on Leetch, nothing against him, but he is an "easy last" here for me.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My first thoughts (as a voter):

• The three likely candidates for my top spot are Clancy, Pilote, and Coffey. Leaning towards Clancy in first but could be swayed. I plan on posting a lot more on Clancy later, as I assume a lot of people aren't entirely familiar with him.
• Is there anyone out there who prefers Horton to Pilote as the dman of the mid-late 60s? Pilote has a much better Norris record, but Horton was the type of guy whose true value came in the postseason (much like Scott Stevens).
• Even though I'm considering Coffey for 1st, I still might drop him out of my top 3 depending on how arguments go.
• Brad Park is solidly in my top 5, but more towards the bottom. I just have a hard time ranking Coffey below Park.
• I'd consider moving Cleghorn ahead of Park, but then I don't even know for sure if I'd have Clegs in my top 5.
• Definitely interested in exploring the pros and cons of Cleghorn - he's a bit of a wild card for me.
• My 5th-10th spots are fairly wide open right now - I view everyone remaining but Leetch as on the same tier.
• Among the modern players, I tend to favor Stevens and Pronger over MacInnis because I think they were more consistently dominant in the playoffs. Or maybe I just prefer shutdown defensemen? I'll post more on this later.
• The only thing I'm mostly sure about in the 5-10 range is that I plan on ranking Stevens and Horton back to back - I'm open to being shown otherwise, but their careers just seem so similar to me.
• I have a tough time ranking Seibert - his all-star record is spectacular at first glance, but it's uncertain to me who he was beating out for those all-stars. If anyone could actually do an analysis of Left Defense vs. Right Defense voting, it would be much appreciated. I am sure that I'm ranking him quite a bit below Clancy.
• As previously stated, it will take a really good argument to move Brian Leetch out of the 11th spot.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

heh, I think that some people on this board would consider getting suspended by his own owner for "actions befitting an animal" to be plus not a minus.

If Cleghorn wasn't such a... psychopath... to the point where he was shunned by his own teammates at one point, he'd be a lock for my top 5 this round (and top 15 overall). As is, I'm undecided as to where to rank him.

 

[Dreakmur]

While I do agree that Brad Park's competition among defensemen was not strong, I don't really think you can punish the guy for that.

I think most people would agree that, while defensemen during Park's peak were not overly strong, the forwards and goaltenders definately were. Instead of just comparing him to other of his position, I think you need to look at how Park compared to all positions to get a true picture of how great he was.

Brad Park's Hart voting record is extremely strong for a defenseman. Six top-10s and three top-5s is among the best of post-Norris defensemen. Only Ray Bourque and Denis Potvin have better records. Nicklas Lidstrom is slightly weaker. Larry Robinson is significantly weaker.


"Post-Norris" Hart records(up to 2009):
Red Kelly - 10th(1950), 3rd(1951), 3rd(1953), 2nd(1954), 4th(1956), 8th(1962), 9th(1967)
Bill Quackenbush - 7th(1951)
Doug Harvey - 5th(1955), 5th(1956), 5th(1957), 3rd(1958), 2nd(1962)
Bill Gadsby - 6th(1958)
Tom Johnson - 10th(1964)
Tim Horton - 10th(1964)
Harry Howell - 5th(1967)
Bobby Orr - 6th(1967), 4th(1968), 3rd(1969), 1st(1970), 1st(1971), 1st(1972), 3rd(1973), 3rd(1974), 3rd(1975)
Brad Park - 5th(1970), 9th(1972), 8th(1974), 5th(1976), 5th(1978), 10th(1983)
Bob Baun - 6th(1971)
Denis Potvin - 7th(1975), 2nd(1976), 9th(1977), 7th(1978), 4th(1979), 9th(1980), 9th(1981)
Dave Burrows - 10th(1976)
Borje Salming - 4th(1977), 7th(1979)
Larry Robinson - 5th(1977), 10th(1978), 7th(1980), 6th(1981), 10th(1986)
Barry Beck - 6th(1982)
Doug Wilson - 9th(1982), 7th(1985)
Rod Langway - 4th(1983), 2nd(1984), 4th(1985)
Mark Howe - 5th(1983), 3rd(1986), 7th(1987)
Ray Bourque - 5th(1984), 5th(1985), 10th(1986), 2nd(1987), 8th(1988), 2nd(1990), 4th(1991), 6th(1994)
Paul Coffey - 10th(1984), 4th(1986), 4th(1995)
Chris Chelios - 5th(1989), 7th(1993), 10th(1996)
Al MacInnis - 8th(1991), 10th(1999), 6th(2003)
Brian Leetch - 9th(1992)
Scott Stevens - 9th(1992), 7th(1994)
Chris Pronger - 1st(2000)
Nicklas Lidstrom - 9th(2000), 10th(2001), 8th(2003), 7th(2006), 6th(2007), 4th(2008)
Zdeno Chara – 8th(2009)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 5 Hart voting record among defensemen during the period in which they actually received Hart consideration

1923-24 2) Sprague Cleghorn 4) Georges Boucher
1924-25 none
1925-26 2) Sprague Cleghorn
1926-27 1) Herb Gardiner 5) King Clancy
1927-28 3) Eddie Shore 5) Ching Johnson
1928-29 3) Eddie Shore 4) Sylvio Mantha 5) King Clancy
1929-30 2) Lionel Hitchman 4) King Clancy
1930-31 2) Eddie Shore 3) King Clancy 4) Ebbie Goodfellow?
1931-32 2) Ching Johnson 4) Red Dutton (we only have the top 4)
1932-33 1) Eddie Shore (we only have the top 3)
1933-34 2) Lionel Conacher 3) King Clancy 4) Earl Seibert
1934-35 1) Eddie Shore 3) Art Coulter
1935-36 1) Eddie Shore 5) Red Dutton
1936-37 1) Babe Siebert 2) Lionel Conacher 3) Ebbie Goodfellow
1937-38 1) Eddie Shore 3) Babe Siebert
1938-39 5) Eddie Shore
1939-40 1) Ebbie Goodfellow 3) Dit Clapper
1940-41 2) Dit Clapper
1941-42 1) Tom Anderson
1942-43 none
1943-44 1) Babe Pratt 4) Earl Seibert
1944-45 4) Flash Hollett
1945-46 5) Jack Stewart

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

While I do agree that Brad Park's competition among defensemen was not strong, I don't really think you can punish the guy for that.

I think most people would agree that, while defensemen during Park's peak were not overly strong, the forwards and goaltenders definately were. Instead of just comparing him to other of his position, I think you need to look at how Park compared to all positions to get a true picture of how great he was.

Brad Park's Hart voting record is extremely strong for a defenseman. Six top-10s and three top-5s is among the best of post-Norris defensemen. Only Ray Bourque and Denis Potvin have better records. Nicklas Lidstrom is slightly weaker. Larry Robinson is significantly weaker.

Those "three top 5s" are all 5th place finishes. His overall record is 5th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th. Where do you get his 6th top 10 finish? Was it when he tied 5 other players for "10th" in Hart voting with a single third place finish in 82-83?

Considering the amount of talent in Europe when Park played, I'm not sure how seriously to take his 8th and 9th place finishes with a handful of points, either.

He's not up for voting yet, but Rod Langway (2nd, 4th, 4th) clearly has a better Hart record than Park, IMO. (Or any other available post-expansion defenseman). Not sure what to make of that. There's definitely an element of "carrying his team" inherent in Hart voting, not just "best player."

 

[Dreakmur]

Top 5 Hart voting record among defensemen during the period in which they actually received Hart consideration

1923-24 2) Sprague Cleghorn 4) Georges Boucher
1924-25 none
1925-26 2) Sprague Cleghorn
1926-27 5) King Clancy
1927-28 3) Eddie Shore 5) Ching Johnson
1928-29 3) Eddie Shore 4) Sylvio Mantha 5) King Clancy
1929-30 2) Lionel Hitchman 4) King Clancy
1930-31 2) Eddie Shore 3) King Clancy 4) Ebbie Goodfellow?
1931-32 2) Ching Johnson 4) Red Dutton (we only have the top 4)
1932-33 1) Eddie Shore (we only have the top 3)
1933-34 2) Lionel Conacher 3) King Clancy 4) Earl Seibert
1934-35 1) Eddie Shore 3) Art Coulter
1935-36 1) Eddie Shore 5) Red Dutton
1936-37 1) Babe Siebert 2) Lionel Conacher 3) Ebbie Goodfellow
1937-38 1) Eddie Shore 3) Babe Siebert
1938-39 5) Eddie Shore
1939-40 1) Ebbie Goodfellow 3) Dit Clapper
1940-41 2) Dit Clapper
1941-42 1) Tom Anderson
1942-43 none
1943-44 1) Babe Pratt 4) Earl Seibert
1944-45 4) Flash Hollett
1945-46 5) Jack Stewart

Exactly. Look at how many defensemen end up in the top 5 every season. It's very clear that once the Norris was introduced, that defensemen really had to be amazing to get a sniff at Hart votes.

While Clancy does get good looking Hart voting over the years, he was usually 2nd or 3rd among defensemen in voting.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Exactly. Look at how many defensemen end up in the top 5 every season. It's very clear that once the Norris was introduced, that defensemen really had to be amazing to get a sniff at Hart votes.

While Clancy does get good looking Hart voting over the years, he was usually 2nd or 3rd among defensemen in voting.

For what it's worth, in 1933-34 when Clancy finished 2nd in Hart voting among defensemen, he was first in All Star voting, so I awarded him his second "retro Norris" in that thread. Of course, we'd need to examine LD vs. RD votes to know for sure.

Edit: And either way, his Hart record was quite a bit better than Seibert's.

 

[Dreakmur]

Those "three top 5s" are all 5th place finishes. His overall record is 5th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th. Where do you get his 6th top 10 finish? Was it when he tied 5 other players for "10th" in Hart voting with a single third place finish in 82-83?

Considering the amount of talent in Europe when Park played, I'm not sure how seriously to take his 8th and 9th place finishes with a handful of points, either.

Defensemen almost never got Hart votes. Even getting a few is amazing.

He's not up for voting yet, but Rod Langway (2nd, 4th, 4th) clearly has a better Hart record than Park, IMO. (Or any other available post-expansion defenseman). Not sure what to make of that. There's definitely an element of "carrying his team" inherent in Hart voting, not just "best player."

Rod Langway was evaluated in a completely different manner than all other defenseman. He was actually evaluated as "most valuable". Everyone else gets evaluates as "most outstanding". His Hart votes need to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I had Cleghorn pretty high on my top-80 list. I think of him as the pre-Shore version of Shore. And from what I understand, he had a pretty good argument for best player in the world for a time, which counts for a lot in my book.

edit: And while I wouldn't give him bonus points for his outright violence, I don't count it as a negative either. Shore, Chelios and Pronger all have that same characteristic in lesser doeses... and Gordie Howe is certainly never punished for being "too mean".

 

[Dreakmur]

For what it's worth, in 1933-34 when Clancy finished 2nd in Hart voting among defensemen, he was first in All Star voting, so I awarded him his second "retro Norris" in that thread. Of course, we'd need to examine LD vs. RD votes to know for sure.

Edit: And either way, his Hart record was quite a bit better than Seibert's.

Clancy never finsihed first in Hart voting among defenseman, so it looks like there was still some of that "most valuable" part to it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Clancy never finsihed first in Hart voting among defenseman, so it looks like there was still some of that "most valuable" part to it.

He did in 1926-27, did he not?

I had Cleghorn pretty high on my top-80 list. I think of him as the pre-Shore version of Shore. And from what I understand, he had a pretty good argument for best player in the world for a time, which counts for a lot in my book.

edit: And while I wouldn't give him bonus points for his outright violence, I don't count it as a negative either. Shore, Chelios and Pronger all have that same characteristic in lesser doeses... and Gordie Howe is certainly never punished for being "too mean".

I think best player in the world went from Newsy Lalonde/Cyclone Taylor to Frank Nighbor. I don't think Cleghorn was seriously considered that.

Rod Langway was evaluated in a completely different manner than all other defenseman. He was actually evaluated as "most valuable". Everyone else gets evaluates as "most outstanding". His Hart votes need to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

I agree with you about Langway, but I think it applies to Park to a lesser extent. I mean, not many people thought he was better than Robinson, but he has a better Hart record because Robinson wasn't as valuable to his stacked team.

 

[Dreakmur]

He did in 1926-27, did he not?

Nope. A defenseman won the Hart that season - Herb Gardiner

I think best player in the world went from Newsy Lalonde/Cyclone Taylor to Frank Nighbor. I don't think Cleghorn was seriously considered that.

Agreed.

I agree with you about Langway, but I think it applies to Park to a lesser extent. I mean, not many people thought he was better than Robinson, but he has a better Hart record because Robinson wasn't as valuable to his stacked team.

I can't think of any other post-Norris defenseman to get the same treatment.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Anyone else very surprised that Salming didn't make this cut?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Nope. A defenseman won the Hart that season - Herb Gardiner

Whoops. Weird that I missed that... obvious one. I'll edit the post.

I can't think of any other post-Norris defenseman to get the same treatment.

Well, one could say it's part of the reason guys like Mark Howe and Ray Bourque have better Hart records than Nicklas Lidstrom (though Bourque's is so much better). It's also pretty clearly a big reason Pronger won the Hart in 2000.

Going back to the 50s, I don't think it's much of a coincidence that Harvey's best finish in Hart voting came after he was traded to the Rangers.

There's definitely an elite of "most valuable" in every Hart trophy, though I agree that it was more pronounced before World War 2 and in the special case of Rod Langway.

 

[overpass]

Check out pages 84-87 of Eddie Shore and that Old-Time Hockey by C. Michael Hiam. He digresses to give a thorough rundown on the violent career of Sprague Cleghorn, emphasis on violent.

One paragraph:

Sprague Cleghorn was not only the master of the clenched fist coming out of nowhere, he was also the master of the skate to the groin, the elbow to the head, the stick across the face, the stick in the face, the stick over the head, the full-force frontal cross-check, the slam headfirst into the boards, the running charge from behind, and his favourite move of all, the butt end in the ribs. “He’d skate over to the Montreal bench where they kept a big can of talcum powder,†Clancy remembers, “sprinkle some of it on his hockey glove, and then run that glove of his up and down the shaft of his stick. Then he’d glare over at our bench and we knew that he was ready – ready to give us the butt end of his stick.â€

I'll look more at his playing career lately, but his various fights and altercations are just surreal to read about. And then there was his relationship with his brother Odie as well. Quite a character.

Cleghorn also played on Boston as a veteran as the young Eddie Shore broke into the NHL, and took credit for teaching Shore a few things.