Round 2, Vote 16 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2 Overtime

• The top 6 ranked players from Vote 15 will be posted in this thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of 4 days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 6 players.
• Top player will be added to the list in the final spot.
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 16 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday March 17 at 9PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday, March 16.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

Vote 16 will be for place 60 (final spot) on the Top 60 list.

There are 6 eligible candidates for Vote 16. You will rank all 6 candidates when voting

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Neil Colville
Frank Foyston
Pat Lafontaine
Joe Primeau
Jeremy Roenick
Henrik Sedin

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

All-Star voting finishes

Henrik Sedin: 1st (2010), 1st (2011), 5th (2012)
Neil Colville: 2nd (1939), 2nd (1940), 3rd (1938). As D = 4th (1948), 7th (1947)
Joe Primeau: 2nd (1934), 3rd (1932), 4th (1933)*, 6th (1931)*, 6th (1935)*
Pat Lafontaine: 2nd (1993), 5th (1990), 5th (1992)
Jeremy Roenick: 4th (1992), 4th (2000), 5th (1991), 5th (2002), 5th (1994)*

*small number of votes

Top 20 scoring finishes (NHLers)

Sedin: 1, 4, 7, 13, 20
Roenick: 5, 7, 11, 11, 15, 20
Lafontaine: 2, 8, 15, 16, 18
Primeau: 2, 2, 6, 19
Colville: 7, 7, 10, 10

Top 20 goals finishes

Lafontaine: 5, 5, 11, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18
Roenick: 3, 10, 14, 13, 15
Colville: 6, 7, 10, 16
Primeau, Sedin: none

Top 20 assists finishes

Sedin: 1, 1, 1, 4, 4, 8, 8, 13
Primeau: 1, 1, 1, 7, 8, 16
Colville: 2, 10, 11, 13, 14, 18
Roenick: 12, 15, 15, 18, 18
Lafontaine: 2

Colville is tough to evaluate offensively, since he played 6 seasons as a center, missed 3 years to WW2, came back and played a bit more than 3 seasons as a defenseman.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

7 year Vs-X score of available NHLers

Among all centers (1926-2013)

Rank|Player|Score
31 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
32 | Denis Savard | 85.4
33 | Eric Lindros | 85.4
34 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
35 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
36 | Darryl Sittler | 84.1
37 | Henrik Sedin | 82.8
38 | Clint Smith* | 82.6
39 | Mats Sundin | 82.3
40 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3
41 | Pierre Turgeon | 82.3
42 | Mike Modano | 81.7
43 | Jeremy Roenick | 81.5
44 | Ted Kennedy | 81.5
45 | Sergei Fedorov | 81
46 | Evgeni Malkin | 80.7
47 | Bernie Nicholls | 80.3
48 | Cooney Weiland | 79.4
49 | Pavel Datsyuk | 78.9
50 | Pat LaFontaine | 78.8
51 | Hooley Smith | 78.8
52 | Doug Weight | 78.6
53 | Brad Richards | 78.4
54 | Phil Watson | 78.1
55 | Alexei Yashin | 77.6
56 | Bernie Federko | 77.3
57 | Vincent Lecavalier | 77.2
58 | Henrik Zetterberg | 76.7
59 | Joe Primeau | 76
60 | Don McKenney | 75.8
61 | Jacques Lemaire | 75.5
62 | Jason Spezza | 75.2
63 | Phil Goyette | 74.9
64 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
65 | Bill Thoms | 74.2
66 | Marc Savard | 73.9
67 | Eric Staal | 73.8
68 | Neil Colville | 73.2
69 | Dave Keon | 73.2
70 | Rod Brind'Amour | 72.8

10 year Vs-X score (post-expansion players only)

Jeremy Roenick: 77.2
Henrik Sedin: 75.6
Pat Lafontaine: 73.3

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Frank Foyston

- PCHA First All-Star (1917, 1918, 1920, 1921, 1923, 1924) - not all these are at center
- PCHA MVP (1917)

Link to post comparing Foyston to his teammate Bernie Morris

As you can see from the above, Morris was the better scorer of the two, overall. He was generally a strong scorer, finishing 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th in PCHA points over his 7-season peak. Morris was not Frank Fredrickson good from an offensive standpoint, but he was probably the third best offensive player in PCHA history, behind Taylor and Fredrickson.

Foyston wasn't as strong, or at least as consistent, offensively, but he also had a lot more defensive responsibilities than Morris, and played at least some rover (and was a 1st team all-star at that position once). Of the two, Foyston's reputation is easily greater. We have already seen him described in glowing terms as an all-around player in the "Perfect Player" article I posted in Mickey MacKay's bio, and there is plenty more good press on Foyston from this era.

Link to Post containing more details on Foyston

So we can see from the above that Frank Foyston was a lesser scorer than Morris, but more decorated in terms of all-star nods, and the 1917 (PCHA) MVP award.

Overall, there is a strong argument that Foyston was the greatest money player of the era. The only other candidates that I really see for this title would be Nighbor and Denneny (leaving goalies out of the discussion). He has a sort of Fedorov aura about his career: great two-way player who always seemed to turn it up in the playoffs.

Foyston had a lot of star power, and though on the surface Morris might seem to have been his equal, the people who saw them play did not seem to think so.

____________________________

Frank Foyston
Pro: During the period 1917-1919, Foyston had at least something of an argument for best center in the world; extremely versatile, winning AS nods at all three forward positions plus rover; noted for his speed, stickhandling, and general playmaking skill; a big-game player who won Cups with 3 different teams and missed a potential 4th due to the 1919 flu cancellation.
Con: A less generous view of his prime could have him at least as low as 8th in the time period behind Taylor, Nighbor, Lalonde, Malone, Fredrickson, MacKay and Keats. If you see him that way, does the 8th best center of the 1910s belong on the top-60 list?

Keep in mind that even though this is called the "best centers of all-time," it is really the best centers/rovers, so in the time of the rovers, we are basically taking in players who played 2 different positions. I expect very few wingers from this generation to be added, since the best players (especially in the PCHA) tended to gravitate towards center and rover. On that note, can someone name more than a handful of wingers from this generation who have a shot at our list? Definitely Cy Denneny. Didier Pitre, sure. Then who? Maybe Jack Walker, possibly Gordon Roberts or Jack Darragh, but they aren't really guarantees.

 

[MXD]

Caveats to XvY :

Primeau's career isnt long enough to fully register. But doesnt have much mitigating factors.
Sedin might improve his score. But this project isn't concerned with future, and its not as if Sedin doesn't already have a complete results.
Colville lost war years and was subsequently used as a D-Men, a position in which he was pretty good, as his resume suggests. If XvY is an important metric for you, consider Colville underrated by this metric.

I kept out all analysis on defensive play. Attributes of these players in that regard should be well know by then.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lafontaine has such a bizarre record when it comes to playmaking. 2nd to Mario Lemieux in 1992-93, but never top 20 again.

Really good goalscorer though

 

[tarheelhockey]

My off-the-cuff opinions on this group:


Neil Colville - After last round's research I have a strong hunch that he was somewhat overrated as a center. However, he was pretty good for his era (maybe top-5 even if we assume he wasn't above Watson on his own team) and he had a fine second career as a defenseman. I'm inclined to rank him highly in this group.

Frank Foyston - Hinges largely on how one interprets the "quality" of a depth candidate from the PCHA era. He may have been a top-3 center for a time, or he may have been considerably less than that, depending on how you view certain other players. I rank him highly here, but not as high as Colville.

Pat Lafontaine - I just don't see it. He was a phenomenal talent, but his career was agonizingly short and (I know this sounds harsh) kind of meaningless in the grand scheme. He didn't do enough in his small window of fame to justify selection here.

Joe Primeau - After extensive consideration, I remain convinced that his assist numbers were inflated by playing in an ideal situation for a long time. His goal scoring is almost non-existent, he had several poor playoffs and his career was cut short by personal choice. He will be in the bottom half of my list.

Jeremy Roenick - I have a hard time figuring out quite where to place him. His peak is fairly high, and his career was fairly long and productive. There aren't a lot of gaping holes in his resume, but he never did much to stand out from the pack either. Someone could possibly convince me to rank him over Colville and Foyston, but I'm not sure how to quantify such an argument at this point.

Henrik Sedin - I think he's very slightly underrated, in the sense that we'd probably treat a player with his resume quite differently if he played in the 1970s instead of the 2000s. That said, I see him as no better than middle-of-the-pack here.

 

[MXD]

Tarheel -- I have a hard time figuring out how Colville could not be considered the 4th best of his era (behind three guys in since a while). I'm ready to concede Watson for the sake of this, but that still makes him top-5.

Actually, I sorta can... If the concept of era is expanded beyond Colville's stint at C in the NHL. Basically, pre-WW2, then yeah, I could see it.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Lafontaine has such a bizarre record when it comes to playmaking. 2nd to Mario Lemieux in 1992-93, but never top 20 again.

Really good goalscorer though

obvious factor would be playing 2/3 of the season with two 50 goal scorers, one of whom was there the entire year and scored 50-in-50, right?

also, buffalo had a top ten PP and lafontaine put up 43 PPA, while his other big seasons were in the mid-20s. looks like lafontaine and hawerchuk were the primary distributors and mogilny and bodger were the shooters, and andreychuk banged home the garbage.

looking at his career stats, i also notice that lafontaine killed it on the PP in his two big buffalo years, putting up 48 PPP (in 57 games) and 63 PPP in those two years. all of his other big seasons were at between 30-40 PPP. having two of the best of all time at what they did on the PP in hawerchuk and andreychuk, as well as mogilny, seems to really have helped him out there. but then, he had very little to work with in NYI and in post-mogilny buffalo... the accurate reflection of lafontaine's PP abilities is probably somewhere between what he did those two years, and what he did in the rest of his career.

 

[tony d]

Going to be interesting to see who wins here, very interesting to see what has been a great voting series so far come down to the wire like this.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Tarheel -- I have a hard time figuring out how Colville could not be considered the 4th best of his era (behind three guys in since a while). I'm ready to concede Watson for the sake of this, but that still makes him top-5.

Well, those were off-the-cuff opinions. I said top-5 because the number sounded right, but I guess we should look at it in more detail:

As a center of the late 1930s and early 1940s, he's behind Apps and Cowley for sure. I don't expect anyone would disagree with that.

Is he behind Milt Schmidt at that point in time? I dunno, their All Star voting is actually pretty even:

1936-37: Colville 1 vote, Schmidt nothing
1937-38: Colville was essentially the 3AS, Schmidt nothing
1938-39: Colville was the 2AS, Schmidt was the 3AS
1939-40: Schmidt was the 1AS, Colville was the 2AS. Schmidt also got some Hart support
1940-41: Colville was the 3AS, but with only one vote so I don't know what that's worth. Schmidt nothing.
1941-42: They each had 1 vote, and Schmidt also had 1 vote as LW.

So yeah, really close between them... you could say it's leaning slightly in either direction depending on what kind of votes you favor.


Who else? Marty Barry perhaps, but he retired in '40. And then Phil Watson, who again by all indications I can find was only worse than Colville when it came to AS votes.

So yeah, I guess I undersold Colville a little there. He's 6th at the absolute worst, and that would assume negative comparisons to all of Schmidt, Barry and Watson during that time period, which would be extremely un-generous.

 

[ted2019]

For Myself, here on how I see My vote going.
Sedin: No chance
Lafontaine: less then 25% chance
Roenick: has grown on Me a bit, up to around 45% chance
Colville: 65% chance
Foyston: I need to do more research on.
Primeau: Around 35-40% chance. Gotta look into things more

 

[MXD]

Well, those were off-the-cuff opinions. I said top-5 because the number sounded right, but I guess we should look at it in more detail:

As a center of the late 1930s and early 1940s, he's behind Apps and Cowley for sure. I don't expect anyone would disagree with that.

Is he behind Milt Schmidt at that point in time? I dunno, their All Star voting is actually pretty even:

1936-37: Colville 1 vote, Schmidt nothing
1937-38: Colville was essentially the 3AS, Schmidt nothing
1938-39: Colville was the 2AS, Schmidt was the 3AS
1939-40: Schmidt was the 1AS, Colville was the 2AS. Schmidt also got some Hart support
1940-41: Colville was the 3AS, but with only one vote so I don't know what that's worth. Schmidt nothing.
1941-42: They each had 1 vote, and Schmidt also had 1 vote as LW.

So yeah, really close between them... you could say it's leaning slightly in either direction depending on what kind of votes you favor.


Who else? Marty Barry perhaps, but he retired in '40. And then Phil Watson, who again by all indications I can find was only worse than Colville when it came to AS votes.

So yeah, I guess I undersold Colville a little there. He's 6th at the absolute worst, and that would assume negative comparisons to all of Schmidt, Barry and Watson during that time period, which would be extremely un-generous.

Yeah, I Linda forgot Barry. I thought that you were referring to Smith, Stewart or Chapman... And was somewhat dumbfounded.

But still, there were seasons were Colville outperformed Apps or Cowley or possibly both (and not to mention he was probably in a setting were production was possibly harder to come by).

 

[MXD]

For Myself, here on how I see My vote going.
Sedin: No chance
Lafontaine: less then 25% chance
Roenick: has grown on Me a bit, up to around 45% chance
Colville: 65% chance
Foyston: I need to do more research on.
Primeau: Around 35-40% chance. Gotta look into things more

I get the point... But you'll rank the 6 guys

 

[Hardyvan123]

For Myself, here on how I see My vote going.
Sedin: No chance
Lafontaine: less then 25% chance
Roenick: has grown on Me a bit, up to around 45% chance
Colville: 65% chance
Foyston: I need to do more research on.
Primeau: Around 35-40% chance. Gotta look into things more

Posts 3 and 4 have Sedin as clearly the better offensive player, how does Joe make up that much of a difference?

Even Colville was losing what offense he had, compared to this group, in the year before the War, is this going to be another case of Schmidt like revisionism on the lost war years?

It's hard to tell with All star voting but Neil was 3rd in 41 with a single vote and 1 other guy got a single vote (Thoms) with Apps and Cowley dominating the voting at Center.

In 42 He gets another single vote at Center and is tied fro 6th that year (in the votes that we have)

In 46 his first full year back on Defense, he played 4 games in 45, he isn't one of the
9 Dmen who received all star votes.

In 47 he is 7th in Dman voting

In 48 he is 4th in Dman voting, hard to say but maybe it was a farewell vote?

It would be nice to have more information on him but I have a hard time seeing him as one of the top 2 guys this round.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Just a general comment on Neil Colville, and whether or not he's a top 5 center of his era...how short is an "era"? Evidently Max Bentley, Elmer Lach, and Sid Abel are being left out of the comparison. It seems like a bit of a stretch to me to say they came from a different era than Colville, unless you're going to call a period of time as short as 5 or 6 years its own era.

 

[Hardyvan123]

My off-the-cuff opinions on this group:


Neil Colville - After last round's research I have a strong hunch that he was somewhat overrated as a center. However, he was pretty good for his era (maybe top-5 even if we assume he wasn't above Watson on his own team) and he had a fine second career as a defenseman. I'm inclined to rank him highly in this group.

Tthe thing is that his time as a Dman might be getting a tad over rated here, see my last post on his all star voting before and after the war.

also his VsX is really quite low. I know it's 6 years but he didn't break in until he was 22 and already had quite a drop off in year 6, so a 7th year probably doesn't help him as mush as one might think.

Not at the bottom but not at the top either.

Frank Foyston - Hinges largely on how one interprets the "quality" of a depth candidate from the PCHA era. He may have been a top-3 center for a time, or he may have been considerably less than that, depending on how you view certain other players. I rank him highly here, but not as high as Colville.

Too many inconsistencies for me in this round and the PCHA was a really small league too. With many of these guys I wonder how long and well they would have fared if the NHL was an 06 league from say 1910 on wards as it would give us a better grip and continuity for the post WW2 years.

he will be near the bottom of my list but could beat out Joe, just not sure how to treat his longevity though really.

Pat Lafontaine - I just don't see it. He was a phenomenal talent, but his career was agonizingly short and (I know this sounds harsh) kind of meaningless in the grand scheme. He didn't do enough in his small window of fame to justify selection here.

Probably has the best 1 year peak of any guy left here and despite his injuries still has a really good resume for this round and a decent playoff, international guy as well.

His VsX rating is really quite good, considering his excellent but shortened 92 season.

I had him high last round and he will be high again.

Joe Primeau - After extensive consideration, I remain convinced that his assist numbers were inflated by playing in an ideal situation for a long time. His goal scoring is almost non-existent, he had several poor playoffs and his career was cut short by personal choice. He will be in the bottom half of my list.

He probably will be at the bottom here for me, short career, didn't make the Leafs on his first two tries really hurts his case IMO and his line mates probably carried him

Jeremy Roenick - I have a hard time figuring out quite where to place him. His peak is fairly high, and his career was fairly long and productive. There aren't a lot of gaping holes in his resume, but he never did much to stand out from the pack either. Someone could possibly convince me to rank him over Colville and Foyston, but I'm not sure how to quantify such an argument at this point.

Very long and productive career even after his injuries and his great start as the best forward for his team over his first 4 or 5 years in the league.

Easily in the top 2 for me this round, just a really solid and consistent resume but might suffer from hanging around too long and being a real ego guy.

Henrik Sedin - I think he's very slightly underrated, in the sense that we'd probably treat a player with his resume quite differently if he played in the 1970s instead of the 2000s. That said, I see him as no better than middle-of-the-pack here.

I think he is a tad under rated as well but he had a slow start and has some 2way ES issues, especially in the playoffs that concern me, but then again we have more info on the modern guys in that regard too.

Excellent peak and prime for this round and his regular season 2 way play has been quite good.

He is just a tough read for me as he seems to be a bit of a compiler and one dimensional offensive guy too but man what a play maker he has been.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Posts 3 and 4 have Sedin as clearly the better offensive player, how does Joe make up that much of a difference?

Even Colville was losing what offense he had, compared to this group, in the year before the War, is this going to be another case of Schmidt like revisionism on the lost war years?

It's hard to tell with All star voting but Neil was 3rd in 41 with a single vote and 1 other guy got a single vote (Thoms) with Apps and Cowley dominating the voting at Center.

In 42 He gets another single vote at Center and is tied fro 6th that year (in the votes that we have)

In 46 his first full year back on Defense, he played 4 games in 45, he isn't one of the
9 Dmen who received all star votes.

In 47 he is 7th in Dman voting

In 48 he is 4th in Dman voting, hard to say but maybe it was a farewell vote?

It would be nice to have more information on him but I have a hard time seeing him as one of the top 2 guys this round.

Do you have any evidence that might indicate this was the case, or is it just baseless speculation in an attempt to degrade Colville?

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Even Colville was losing what offense he had, compared to this group, in the year before the War, is this going to be another case of Schmidt like revisionism on the lost war years?

It's hard to tell with All star voting but Neil was 3rd in 41 with a single vote and 1 other guy got a single vote (Thoms) with Apps and Cowley dominating the voting at Center.

In 42 He gets another single vote at Center and is tied fro 6th that year (in the votes that we have)

In 46 his first full year back on Defense, he played 4 games in 45, he isn't one of the
9 Dmen who received all star votes.

In 47 he is 7th in Dman voting

In 48 he is 4th in Dman voting, hard to say but maybe it was a farewell vote?

It would be nice to have more information on him but I have a hard time seeing him as one of the top 2 guys this round.

Do we have anything to suggest it was a farewell vote? He was supposed to play the next season but only played 14 games, it's not like he announced it was his final season.

If we're just going to speculate, can't I say a reason for him not garnering all-star votes in his first season on defense is that he needed time to adjust to a new position?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Just a general comment on Neil Colville, and whether or not he's a top 5 center of his era...how short is an "era"? Evidently Max Bentley, Elmer Lach, and Sid Abel are being left out of the comparison. It seems like a bit of a stretch to me to say they came from a different era than Colville, unless you're going to call a period of time as short as 5 or 6 years its own era.

I'm okay with calling a players career as an era but with Neil it's only 6 years at center and he was already declining in his 6th season, then the war years and he comes back as a Dman so it's hard to compare his after war career to other centers and he has a weird voting record for all star in his last 3 years as well.

I know that a couple of guys really hate this method but looking at any players career he should really do quite well against his peers (among other things) to be considered for the top 60 list IMO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Do we have anything to suggest it was a farewell vote? He was supposed to play the next season but only played 14 games, it's not like he announced it was his final season.

If we're just going to speculate, can't I say a reason for him not garnering all-star votes in his first season on defense is that he needed time to adjust to a new position?

I guess that's fair but he was already known as a pretty good defensive center, it's extremely rare to see a guy get better (as his voting results suggest) in years 32 ans 33 from where he was in 32 (not in the top 9).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

In 46 there were only 20 Dmen who played in over 80% of their teams games, not being in the top 9 suggests that Neil was middle of the pack, at best, in that year.

I mean we see voters do some really weird things over the years, of course there is zero transparency with the voters but my suggestions seems more plausible than him getting that much better in years 32 and 33 then falling off the cliff at 34 right?

For the record I don't know how his career ended and am assuming that he retired after a slow start in his age 34 season, if someone has information on this it would be good to know and helpfull too.

He did play in the AHL in his 34 and 35 age seasons so it suggest that he fell off that cliff right after he climbed onto it (with the all star voting).

Maybe he took time to adjust or maybe some voters had a bit of a soft sot for him, or maybe it was a combination and/or others guys not doing as well to age and other factors but the timeline before and after the 7th and 4th place finishes isn't anything to the normal voting patterns of most players.

Even if we take the best case scenario and say Neil took time to adjust and was just an average Dman in the league in 46 and has that noticeable dip offensively in the year before the missing war years, how is one to actually treat those missing years?

Maybe it's the exception that proves the rule or not, it's certainly something to think about though right?

Sedin also has a weird career path for a top 60 center that raises some questions and we know about his extremely good offensive zone starts that might have kept up his point finishes and 2 way play as well.

Joe ahs some helpful assist ratios in Toronto as assists were harder to come by in other NHL cities during his time in the nHL

 

[Hardyvan123]

Do you have any evidence that might indicate this was the case, or is it just baseless speculation in an attempt to degrade Colville?

See above post, it doesn't make alot of sense to think he got that much better at defense in those last 2 years and then fell off the cliff as fast as he did.

Perhaps looking at the argument instead of the messenger and using the term baseless might help.

I understand that a lot of people disagree with my point of view or questioning of certain players, and voters decisions but I do actually look thing s up and think seriously about them 99% of the time.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I'm okay with calling a players career as an era but with Neil it's only 6 years at center and he was already declining in his 6th season, then the war years and he comes back as a Dman so it's hard to compare his after war career to other centers and he has a weird voting record for all star in his last 3 years as well.

Well this is sort of my point. Calling him the 5th best center of his era seems to consider only players who's careers overlapped almost entirely with his own (for his time at center).

Might I ask what is weird about his all-star record record in his last three seasons?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

See above post, it doesn't make alot of sense to think he got that much better at defense in those last 2 years and then fell off the cliff as fast as he did.

It makes more sense to think voters just gave him some "farewell votes" (even though he wasn't retiring)?

Perhaps looking at the argument instead of the messenger and using the term baseless might help.

No supporting argument was made, hence myself and another poster asking you to back up your claim with some evidence.

I understand that a lot of people disagree with my point of view or questioning of certain players, and voters decisions but I do actually look thing s up and think seriously about them 99% of the time.

When you sluff off a player's placement on the all-star team as a going away present without providing any supporting evidence along with it, you are going to be questioned on it.