Round 2, Vote 13 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the wingers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 12-16 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 10 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 wingers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 5 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
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• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
Andros , Art of Sedinery , BillyShoe1721 , Dennis Bonvie , Hawkey Town 18 , intylerwetrust , kmad , MadArcand , reckoning , Rob Scuderi , ted1971 , TheDevilMadeMe , the edler , tony d , Ursaguy , bigbuffalo313 , Canadiens1958 , Darth Yoda , Hardyvan123 , MXD , tarheelhockey , unknown33 , seventieslord , Johnny Engine

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

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[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 12 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday January 5th. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday January 4th.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

There are 13 eligible candidates for Vote 12 because of the natural breaks of Round 1 point totals.

***You will now rank your Top 10 when voting.***

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:


Bill Barber
Punch Broadbent
Bob Gainey
Ilya Kovalchuk
Rick Martin
Lanny McDonald
Rick Middleton
Alex Mogilny
Markus Naslund
Cam Neely
Reg Noble
Bert Olmstead
Keith Tkachuk

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not a fan of the new candidates at all. 5 boring 70s/80s/90s NHLers and Punch Broadbent. Did everyone just mail it in during the tail end of their lists?

At least we can compare Broadbent to Neely. That's something... I guess.

Kovalchuk and Olmstead will be near the top of my list. Beyond that it's wide open. Not a huge fan of the rest of the candidates, really.

 

[Plural]

I'm guessing Kovalchuk is pretty much a lock for top-2 in this vote? Or is someone thinking on putting Neely and/or Mogilny ahead of him?

 

[ted2019]

Ugly is right. Off the cuff, my top guys are.
Olmstead
Kovalchuk
Broadbent
Tkachuk
Mogilny
Middleton

 

[seventieslord]

Kovalchuk, Middleton and Olmstead should be shoo-ins here, and I don't even care who gets 60th as long as it's not Gainey, Neely, barber, Martin or Broadbent. McDonald can't really make it either, being that he's decidedly below Middleton and they have to be further apart than this. And all things considered,I can't see myself taking mogilny over McDonald, either.

So I guess that leaves noble, Tkachuk and naslund in the battle for my 4th spot.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Kovalchuk, Middleton and Olmstead should be shoo-ins here, and I don't even care who gets 60th as long as it's not Gainey, Neely, barber, Martin or Broadbent. McDonald can't really make it either, being that he's decidedly below Middleton and they have to be further apart than this. And all things considered,I can't see myself taking mogilny over McDonald, either.

So I guess that leaves noble, Tkachuk and naslund in the battle for my 4th spot.

I don't get the Middleton hype, especially after seeing how his one outstanding playoff run was such an outlier. Am I missing something? I mean, not that I won't necessarily have him high due to lack of better options, but I don't see him as a shoo-in or anything.

Also, can you do your Vs1 comparison between Noble and Broadbent? I know Broadbent is something of a one-season wonder offensively, but is he any worse than Noble overall as a scorer?

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm kind of shocked to realize I might have to argue in favor of Tkachuk here.

 

[Captain Bowie]

My top 4 that weren't put through last round were: Kovalchuk, Noble, Naslund and Neely.

Though I may change my mind on Gainey. Simply because he was the best ever at something, that is pretty damn notable. Call it a "token" placement if you want, but it feels like the greatest defensive winger of all-time needs some love, if only to represent his kind.

Of the rest, maybe Mogilny or Martin could crack the top 5 if a good argument was made.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't get the Middleton hype, especially after seeing how his one outstanding playoff run was such an outlier. Am I missing something? I mean, not that I won't necessarily have him high due to lack of better options, but I don't see him as a shoo-in or anything.

I wouldn't say I'm participating in any Middleton "hype", it's just that there are certainly no better options among the new candidates.

But why am I high on him?

For starters - does Michel Goulet deserve to get in where he does, without the extra considerations we extend to him? (i.e. his era was badly underrepresented, the Adams division factor, the probability that VsX underrates players from his time) I don't think so. Middleton is in the same boat now. His VsX is pretty weak and he only gets in now with extra considerations, which are the exact same as those used in Goulet's favour, plus the whole "top scorer on a successful defensive team" thing.

edit to add: Also, it seems clear that he was a dazzling, exciting player who was more talented/better offensively than his numbers, perhaps even with the other factors already accounted for. He was talked about as the "best one on one player in the game" and let's face it, from Perreault to Kovalev, players get some credit for that kind of talk, beyond what their actual production says.

Not only that, he was a prime reason why the team was so successful defensively. It leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth how some talked about Goulet's defense. reading the scouting reports that were provided, I can tell you that they paint him as average-to-slightly-above-average if you take a career-long average ad compare to how other scoring forwards are discussed. But he got more credit than that in this project. In Middleton's case, he deserves all that credit and more. I will show what reports I have available that talk about his defensive game in order to demonstrate this.

His playoffs ain't great, but they aren't really that bad either, are they? obviously that one year was a major outlier but it would be an outlier for any player aside from a couple.

Also, can you do your Vs1 comparison between Noble and Broadbent? I know Broadbent is something of a one-season wonder offensively, but is he any worse than Noble overall as a scorer?

Noble's best Vs1 seasons: 83 71 67 63 62 61 43
Broadbent's best Vs1 seasons: 100 61 54 51 46 43 41

...ouch. I mean Noble's no VsX star, but we're also talking about his only seasons as a forward here, and Broadbent has many more to choose from and can still only top 55 twice.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

just curious: if propp, provost, or tikkanen were available, would any of you vote for them? or claude lemieux?

such a lack of intangibles and overwhelming HOVG-ness at the bottom of the list. i'd go olmstead, noble, gainey, neely just to not have to vote for the rest of them.

 

[MXD]

Can I retroactively change my Round 1 list so as to make Brian Propp appear ?

I mean, we're about to spend two weeks discussing on... This ?!

 

[MXD]

just curious: if propp, provost, or tikkanen were available, would any of you vote for them? or claude lemieux?

such a lack of intangibles and overwhelming HOVG-ness at the bottom of the list. i'd go olmstead, noble, gainey, neely just to not have to vote for the rest of them.

Actually, switch Noble with Middleton, and this is exactly how I'm going. I'm not even bothering with the use of conditional tense this time around.

Propp and Provost, yes. Tiki... Maybe. Pepe ? I don't think so.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

just curious: if propp, provost, or tikkanen were available, would any of you vote for them? or claude lemieux?

such a lack of intangibles and overwhelming HOVG-ness at the bottom of the list. i'd go olmstead, noble, gainey, neely just to not have to vote for the rest of them.

Provost, yes - he's actually strong two-ways, unlike most players available now. Probably not Propp (Propp vs Barber is an open question but it's not like I'm interested in voting for Barber). Edit: Wait - even though I'm not jonsing for Propp, compared to the rest of these guys, he actually would look decent.

Definitely not Tikkanen. Just not good enough as a scorer.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

10-year VsX for post-expansion players

Generally preferred for post-expansion players. I'm picking an assortment of recent wingers who are not available for comparison sake rather than posting the whole table. These wingers are intended for comparison sake, there are many more I could have included. Heatley looks to have the highest 10 year VsX of any unavailable non-war year winger, by the way.

Ilya Kovalchuk 78.5
Markus Naslund 75.3
Keith Tkachuk 75.0
(Dany Heatley 74.3)
Alexander Mogilny 74.1
(Daniel Sedin 73.3)
(Ziggy Palffy 71.7)
(Patrik Marleau 69.6)
(Pavol Demitra 69.4)
Lanny McDonald 69.2
(Steve Larmer 68.8)
(Tony Amonte 68.7)
Rick Middleton 68.4
(Milan Hejduk 68.2)
(Glenn Anderson 66.7)
Bill Barber 65.6
(Brian Propp 64.9)
(Owen Nolan 63.1)
Rick Martin 63.0
Cam Neely 55.6

Gainey = scoring wasn't his role.

7 Year weighted Vs-X scores 1927 to 2014

A formula for determining the quality of a player's point production in his best 7 regular seasons, compared to a typical #2 scorer in the league those years.

Details here and here

War years players - I am now listing the "war year fudge" first with the raw VsX in parenthesis, since I think the war year fudge is a much better estimate of offensive value.

22 | Jarome Iginla | 87
23 | Dickie Moore | 86
24 | Pavel Bure | 86
25 | Frank Mahovlich | 85.5
26 | Paul Kariya | 85.4
27 | Roy Conacher | 85.4(88.8)
28 | Toe Blake | 85.3(92.6)
29 | John Bucyk | 85.3
30 | Bryan Hextall | 84.5
31 | Luc Robitaille | 84.4
32 | Syd Howe | 84.3(87.9)
33 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 84.3
34 | Markus Naslund | 83.6
35 | Paul Thompson | 83.2
36 | Aurel Joliet# | 83.1
37 | Marian Hossa | 82.6
38 | Daniel Alfredsson | 82.6
39 | Theoren Fleury | 82.3
40 | John LeClair | 82.1
41| Dany Heatley | 81.5
42| Ziggy Palffy | 80.6
43| Rod Gilbert | 80.2*
44|Lynn Patrick |80.0(81.2)
45| Ken Hodge | 79.9*
46| Brendan Shanahan | 79.3
47| Michel Goulet | 79.3
48 | Patrik Elias | 79.3
49 | Keith Tkachuk | 79.3
50 | Cecil Dillon | 78.4
51 | Alexander Mogilny | 78.1
52 | Daniel Sedin | 77.3
53| Bun Cook |76.6
54| Bert Olmstead | 76.3
55| Bobby Bauer | 76.2
56| Patrick Kane | 76.0
57| Bobby Rousseau| 76.0
58 | Alex Kovalev | 75.8
59| Herbie Lewis | 75.6
60| Bill Mosienko|75.5(82.2)
61| Lorne Carr|75.3(80.2)
62| Pavol Demitra | 75.2
63 | Johnny Gottselig | 75.0
64| Lanny McDonald | 74.6
65| Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
66| Rick Middleton | 74.0
67| Milan Hejduk | 73.8
68| Yvan Cournoyer | 73.6*
69| Woody Dumart | 73.5
70| Patrick Marleau | 73.3
71| Tony Amonte | 73.3
72| Gaye Stewart | 73.1
73| Ray Whitney | 73.0
74 | Larry Aurie | 72.7
75 | Corey Perry | 72.6
76 | Peter Bondra | 72.5
77 | Alex Tanguay | 72.5
78 | Eddie Wiseman | 72.1
79 | Steve Larmer | 72.1
80 | Glenn Anderson | 71.9
81 | Joe Mullen | 71.4
82 | Johnny Gagnon | 71
83 | Steve Shutt | 70.8
84 | Kenny Wharram | 70.6
85 | Dave Taylor | 70.4
86 | Rick Martin | 70.2
87 | Dino Ciccarelli | 69.9
88 | Marian Gaborik | 69.9
89 | Rene Robert | 69.4
90 | Dave Andreychuk | 69.4
91 | Baldy Northcott | 69.3
92 | Todd Bertuzzi | 69.2
93 | Jimmy Ward | 69
94 | Thomas Vanek | 68.8
95 | Zach Parise | 68.7
96 | Sid Smith | 68.6
97 | Bill Barber | 68.6
98 | Miroslav Satan | 68.6
99 | Phil Kessel | 68.5
100 | Mike Gartner | 68.5
-|-|-
-| Cam Neely |63.8

Gainey would be way lower than anyone else. Also, as a guy who basically never played on the PP, we'd need to look at even strength scoring anyway.
___________________

I'll let the numbers speak for themselves for the most part, but how much worse would Martin and Barber look if it weren't for Perreault and Clarke passing to them?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm kind of shocked to realize I might have to argue in favor of Tkachuk here.

Tkachuk is likely a top 4 regular season player here, honestly - only Kovalchuk and Naslund are really better than him as a scorer, and Keith was a physical beast (though prone to bad penalties, like really bad, so it was something of two-way sword).

But man, those playoffs for the final 2/3s of his career are terrible. Though now that I think of it, Kovalchuk and Naslund weren't exactly playoff warriors either..

For what it's worth, Tkachuk finished 11th-15th in point scoring 4 times, which won't show up on a simple search of hockey reference.

Yuck, sad state of affairs when I might have to have Tkachuk pretty high.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I wouldn't say I'm participating in any Middleton "hype", it's just that there are certainly no better options among the new candidates.

But why am I high on him?

For starters - does Michel Goulet deserve to get in where he does, without the extra considerations we extend to him? (i.e. his era was badly underrepresented, the Adams division factor, the probability that VsX underrates players from his time) I don't think so. Middleton is in the same boat now. His VsX is pretty weak and he only gets in now with extra considerations, which are the exact same as those used in Goulet's favour, plus the whole "top scorer on a successful defensive team" thing.

edit to add: Also, it seems clear that he was a dazzling, exciting player who was more talented/better offensively than his numbers, perhaps even with the other factors already accounted for. He was talked about as the "best one on one player in the game" and let's face it, from Perreault to Kovalev, players get some credit for that kind of talk, beyond what their actual production says.

Not only that, he was a prime reason why the team was so successful defensively. It leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth how some talked about Goulet's defense. reading the scouting reports that were provided, I can tell you that they paint him as average-to-slightly-above-average if you take a career-long average ad compare to how other scoring forwards are discussed. But he got more credit than that in this project. In Middleton's case, he deserves all that credit and more. I will show what reports I have available that talk about his defensive game in order to demonstrate this.

I've seen speculation that VsX underrates 80s players, but nothing more than that. It isn't the case where multiple players from a single team like the Bruins break the system. For as strong as the Oilers were, their players other than Gretzky were usually part of the pack, though well near the front. Not multiple outliers like the Bruins had.

I dunno. Maybe he'll look good when I post top 20 points finishes later.

I'm definitely interested to see those scouting reports - I'm especially interested to see what they look like outside the 4 year stretch when he got strong All-Star consideration.

Noble's best Vs1 seasons: 83 71 67 63 62 61 43
Broadbent's best Vs1 seasons: 100 61 54 51 46 43 41

...ouch. I mean Noble's no VsX star, but we're also talking about his only seasons as a forward here, and Broadbent has many more to choose from and can still only top 55 twice.

Yuck. Though to be honest, those don't look very different.

Wasn't Broadbent something of a big time playoff player? Or did he just get lucky enough to play for the Senators?

 

[seventieslord]

Middleton's defense (using Goulet as a comparison since he's a contemporary who's featured in all the same books and everyone seemed to agree in this project that he was very good defensively)

GOULET

(1993) "expect fine backchecking"... his defensive play has improved in direct proportion to his declining offensive dominance.

(1994) under the demanding coaching style of Darryl Sutter, the former scoring star was forced to apply some of his energy toward covering the defensive end of the ice, not an easy adjustment.

(1986)he is attentive defensively and, while no one will ever mistake him for a defensive forward, Mihel is conscientious about his defensive responsibilities.

(1988) as good as his offense is, his defense is often no more than perfunctory, so Michel will never be mistaken for a defensive forward. In fact, one of his linemates is going to have to be a defensively-oriented forward.

(1990)his defense has always mirrored his offense, and now more than ever he needs a linemate with the speed and desire to play defense.

(1991)he remains extremely conscientious about his defensive zone play... he stays in the defensive zone until the puck is clear of the blueline and is smart in his defensive anticipation.

(1992)an up and down winger... if (his offense) was all there was, he wouldn't be on the ice in the last minute of a game with his team defending a one goal lead. his defensive play has been underrated because of his 50-goal seasons.

(1993) Goulet works hard on his defense, and since he was once a one-way offensive player, it doesn't come very naturally to him... has adapted to the role of a defensive player but doesn't seem to be a real defensive specialist. Without his offensive threat, we have a hard time figuring out exactly what his role is supposed to be.

This publication never mentions Goulet's defense, except for one year when it calls him a good penalty killer

This publication never mention's Goulet's defense, aside from when, following his huge +/- season, it surmises he must have been doing a good job defensively

MIDDLETON

This was first published in 1993

(1986)he remains a solid - and underrated defensive performer and still checks well, making him a stalwart on the penalty kill and a shorthanded goal threat.

(1987)He is a stalwart penalty killer and a still underrated defensive performer. He checks well and is a shorthanded goal threat.

(1980)Don Cherry helped Ricky develop into complete player who checks as well as scores.

(1981) offensive minded RW has worked hard to become a good defensive forward.

(1982)plays powerplays, kills penalties and does everything well...

(1983)"Without a doubt he's the best all-around right wing in hockey," says teammate Brad Park... Bruins fans agree, rating him above Mike Bossy because he knows how to check and play defense as well as score goals... slick and quick with or without puck... terrific penalty killer with ability to get puck out of his team's end of the ice.

(1984)Don Cherry taught him how to excel defensively.

(1986) Still ranks as one of the best all-around right wings in the NHL... outstanding defensive forward and penalty killer.

(1987) not only gifted offensively, but also a good defensive forward.

(1978)"he's done a complete turnabout," says Don Cherry. "when he first came to us, he was only interested in scoring goals. now he's totally committed to our checking system. I have never seen such a dramatic change in an athlete."

(1979)"He came to us as a goal scoring specialist," Cherry said, "but by applying himself, he's become a really first rate defensive player. Hell, you even see him blocking shots. And he's done it without losing anything from his offense."

(1981)"I used to be strictly out for goals. After I came to Boston, Don Cherry sold me on the importance of playing a complete two-way game. And the funny thing about it is that sound checking increases your scoring opportunities."... "he's living proof that you can play aggressively without breaking the rules," says GM Harry Sinden.

(1982)fellows like Middleton are becoming a rarity... he manages to play the game effectively without breaking its rules. "the interesting angle is that Middleton is able to check aggressively without committing fouls, he's no namby-pamby player," says coach Cheevers. "Where Rick opened a lot of eyes was in the Canada cup. He was one of Canada's best guys. I thought he was the best, going both ways."

(1983)When Boston got Middleton in 1976, all he wanted to do was score goals. "He was lazy," says Gerry Cheevers. "It was Don Cherry who got after him and made him a two-way player. Today, defensively, he's just about the best right winger in the NHL."

(1984)As a young player, he was known primarily as an attacker... coached by Don Cherry, he changed himself into a solid two-way player. "We simply convinced him that with his speed, checking would be easy, and would make him a far more useful guy to have around." Even with this increased attention to his defensive chores, he accumulated 314 goals in his first 8 years with Boston. "As an all-around player," claims Cherry, "Nifty is 1-2-3 the best in the league. He does it all."

- There's reason to believe Goulet was good defensively; there's also reason to believe that he often wasn't. But he got a lot of benefit of the doubt here.

- It's quite surprising how little defensive mention Goulet received in the Complete Handbook and Jim Proudfoot guys. The Complete Handbook will always mention it for a guy who possesses any significant ability in that area. I've also had a lot of success in the Jim Proudfoot books looking for quotes on defensive/physical players. He's not shy about saying so if there's reason to.

- On the other hand, the glowing comments about Middleton's offense even surprised me. In most cases, Hollander will go on and on about a skill player's offensive talents and either say nothing about their defense, or throw in one little line - but these guides make no bones about Middleton being excellent defensively.

- I realize that the Hockey Scouting report in 1987 just parrots 1986. I entered it anyway to show that they still saw him the same way - which doesn't always happen - like, for example, with Goulet.

- I also realize there's a lot made about how Cherry made Middleton a good defensive player, as in, they keep trotting that story out. However, the fact that they do is still an annual affirmation that he is indeed still very good defensively.

- On a non-defensive note, I can't believe how many different ways the reports all describe Middleton's dazzling offensive game. His trickery, his slick moves, his one on one play. I mean, I already knew this just from how the 40+ crowd here talks about him, but he was clearly highly regarded for his skills if not his scoring stats. I want to post all this too, but to be honest, it's a quite intimidating task at this time of night. It would take a lot longer than all of the above did.

 

[seventieslord]

Yuck. Though to be honest, those don't look very different.

...they do, though. Really. Broadbent is behind, by a good deal too, in every season except their respective bests (and 7th I guess) - which really demonstrates how that season was an outlier.

Wasn't Broadbent something of a big time playoff player? Or did he just get lucky enough to play for the Senators?

He was a bit of an intangibles king, but I don't see how it was any better than Noble or Olmstead, based on what I've read. He is so easily last in this round.

 

[sr edler]

Oh, didn't think we would see Mogilny. Has a decent chance to make my top 4 here amongst this suspect group of players. He'll probably leap frog Näslund, Tkachuk, Noble, Martin, McDonald, Barber, Gainey, Kovalchuk & Broadbent.

Would have liked to seen Jack Walker & Patrick Kane. But oh well...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 20 finishes of the post-expansion NHLers

Gainey not listed (because he has none)

Top 20 points finishes

Kovalchuk: 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11
Naslund: 2, 2, 4
Middleton: 10, 10, 13, 14, 14, 16
McDonald: 8, 10, 12, 14, 15
Tkachuk: 11, 12, 12, 15, 19
Martin: 6, 10, 15, 17
Mogilny: 7, 9, 15, 15
Barber: 4, 18
Neely: 15, 20

• Naslund has the best three year peak as a point producer, but I think Kovalchuk has the better overall resume by a clear margin
• Middleton looks pretty impressive as the offensive catalyst of his team. Tkachuk was usually the offensive catalyst of his team too.
• Some of you might be surprised by how weak Mogilny's record looks, but I'm not. Spike seasons in the high scoring 1993 and 1996, pretty good seasons in 2001 and 2003, and a lot of mediocrity in between.
• Martin spent his prime centered by Perreault, but in his best seasons, he and Perreault were sometimes quite close in scoring.
• Bobby Clarke (Barber's center) won the Hart Trophy during Barber's spike offensive year. One of Clarke's 3 Harts.

Top 20 goals finishes

Kovalchuk: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 6, 7, 8
Tkachuk: 1, 6, 7, 7, 10, 15, 15, 18, 19
Mogilny: 1, 3, 6, 18, 20
Martin: 2, 3, 7, 6, 10, 12, 16
McDonald: 2, 4, 5, 6, 15, 19, 20
Naslund 2, 5, 7, 7, 15
Neely: 2, 3, 8, 9, 19
Middleton: 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 18
Barber: 5, 7, 12, 13, 14, 18

• Kovalchuk is definitely the best (regular season) goal scorer this round. Mogilny, Martin, McDonald Naslund, and Neely are close at their best, but Kovalchuk just has so many more seasons as a top goal scorer.
• Tkachuk's 1st place finish involved a strangely high number of empty net goals, but his longevity as a top 20 goal scorer is superb.
• Mogilny was centered by Lafontaine (during Lafontaine's best year) during his own best season, but had pretty average centers otherwise.
• Middleton's record doesn't look so hot, but he was the offensive catalyst on his team, which many of these guys weren't for most of their careers. It probably doesn't bridge the gap between him and the pack, but it closes it.
• Barber's record is really bad considering who his center was.

Top 20 assists finishes

Naslund: 4, 8, 9
Middleton: 14, 17, 18, 20
Barber: 9
Kovalchuk: 15, 18
McDonald: 13
Neely, Tkachuk, Martin, Mogilny: NONE

• Naslund and Middleton are the only ones worth a damn as playmakers.
• Barber's single high finish was during his spike year as a point producer (when Bobby Clarke won the Hart).

 

[amnesiac]

still a little baffled how a 700 goal scorer isnt there yet. Longevity and consistency says something at this point in the list.

 

[unknown33]

I'm kind of shocked to realize I might have to argue in favor of Tkachuk here.

Numbers wise Tkachuk might be better than Neely, but reputation and eye test say otherwise.


Mogilny, Barber, McDonald nope.
Guess Broadbent doesn't make it either.


Among the 'negative intangible - great scorer' types Kovalchuk is pretty clearly the best, no matter how you slice it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I'm kind of shocked to realize I might have to argue in favor of Tkachuk here.

Well better you than me for his sake.

I'm glad to see him on the ballot, a really good tough scoring winger who played on poor teams, thus the playoff resume.

But we know he faces an uphill battle here with Naslund and Kovo dropping so far already.

 

[Hardyvan123]

still a little baffled how a 700 goal scorer isnt there yet. Longevity and consistency says something at this point in the list.

I'm not baffled or surprised and I don't think there is a very strong argument that he should be here yet either.

Then again he probably wouldn't be last this round either.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that the 2 WHA star wingers never showed up and are probably missing form many original lists as well but Marc Tardif and Real Cloutier would have been interesting discussions and neither would be any worse then the 2 70's guys that showed up this round either in Barber and Martin..