Round 2, Vote 12 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 12 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday Feb 3 at 9PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday, Feb 2.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

Vote 12 will be for places 45 through 48 (4 places) on the Top 60 list.

There are 12 eligible candidates for Vote 12. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:


Marty Barry
Frank Fredrickson
Dale Hawerchuk
Igor Larionov
Mickey MacKay
Mike Modano
Vladimir Petrov
Joe Primeau
Jean Ratelle
Denis Savard
Daryl Sittler
Mats Sundin

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Preliminary thoughts on new candidates:

Marty Barry is a virtual lock for my top 4 and has a very good shot at #1. I'll post more on him later, though HO already did some good work earlier

IMO, after Taylor, Fredrickson and MacKay are the PCHA stars who must make it (I'd also consider Dunderdale, Foyston, and Morris but could go either way on them). Maybe its a round (or 2) early for them, but I want at least those 2 in the top 60

Sundin, Sittler, Primeau? I hate sounding like a Leafs hater, but I'm indifferent as to whether they make our top 60 at all, and they are pretty easy to leave out of my top 8. Forgive me Leafs fans; I was a big advocate for Apps and Gilmour where they went

Sundin is Modano's equal in regular season offense, but Modano is way ahead in defense and playoffs, so there should be real separation. Sittler seems a step down from Hawerchuk and Savard, and they are far from guarantees to make this round (though they should and will make our top 60). Primeau was great at his best, but has what, 4 relevant seasons?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm not going to post long tables of All-Star nods anymore. With Malkin, Smith, and Perreault making it, we are running out of players with significant recognition over their careers. Henrik Sedin is the only 2 time 1st teamer left, and Neil Colville is the only guy with 3 top 3 finishes left. And neither is a candidate this round for various reasons. A more nuanced approach to awards voting is needed at this point, IMO

 

[MadArcand]

Dear God, Sundin? Just how many Leafs fans did submit round 1 ballots?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Dear God, Sundin? Just how many Leafs fans did submit round 1 ballots?

Fewer than Hartford/Carolina fans

 

[sr edler]

I like Fredrickson's game very much and he'll probably go in my top 4. Barry too probably and Hawerchuk|Ratelle. But it looks like an open round.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Sundin is Modano's equal in regular season offense, but Modano is way ahead in defense and playoffs, so there should be real separation.

But does Sundin not start to bridge the gap with one of the more impressive international resumes among primarily NHL-based players? 39 points in 30 games of best-on-best hockey. 44 points in 35 games of World Championship play. Leading scorer in an Olympic tournament. For whatever reason, he was not named on your Canada/World Cup scoring leaders post in the research section, but he ranks 11th with 19 points in 14 games (Modano ranks 8th with 21 points in 21 games).

More than that, I do not consider them equals in regular season offense. From his sophomore season to his penultimate season, Mats Sundin was a lock for a 74-point-pace all 16 seasons while never missing more than 12 games (for an average of 3.4 missed games per year). That's a level of durability and consistency that Mike Modano did not offer. Mike Modano has his 2004s (44 points in 76 games; -21 on a 97-point playoff team) and his 1998s (missed 30 games); Mats Sundin does not. This is why despite playing 153 fewer games, Sundin has just 25 fewer points (Modano surpassing Sundin on the all-time list after Sundin retired despite Sundin's career starting later).

Modano undoubtedly has more high-points in terms of playoffs, but Sundin scored a respectable 82 points in 91 games - coincidentally, a perfect 74-point-pace over 82 games. He doesn't have the triumphs of a Mike Modano, but he seems to have contributed more than adequately on a cumulative basis.

And if we can go back to 2004 for a bit, that was Modano's response to an increased leadership role: 44 points in 76 games and a -21 on the 2nd best defensive team in the league. Captaincy: It's a role he absolutely could not handle, and it is a role that Mats Sundin thrived in. I understand that Modano had some financial issues as well, but even after he told Sports Illustrated that those issues were resolved, his level play did not increase as he scored just 10 points in his final 20 games.

I may even put Modano higher, but I disagree with the idea that there is significant separation or the idea of a "Dear God, Sundin?" response to his candidacy.

 

[sr edler]

^ I agree with the post above. I also can't see this substantial gap between Modano & Sundin. If there's a gap I think it's a smaller one.

 

[MadArcand]

You just said it yourself that Sundin was good for 74-point pace year-in, year-out. That's above-average first-liner. Incredibly consistent, but still only above-average. And he has no defensive value to bring that up.

Sundin is most definitely not a top-50 center. He may have a case for 60th, but we're voting for 45th spot now! He shouldn't be anywhere near that.

 

[ted2019]

Preliminary thoughts on new candidates:

Marty Barry is a virtual lock for my top 4 and has a very good shot at #1. I'll post more on him later, though HO already did some good work earlier

IMO, after Taylor, Fredrickson and MacKay are the PCHA stars who must make it (I'd also consider Dunderdale, Foyston, and Morris but could go either way on them). Maybe its a round (or 2) early for them, but I want at least those 2 in the top 60

Sundin, Sittler, Primeau? I hate sounding like a Leafs hater, but I'm indifferent as to whether they make our top 60 at all, and they are pretty easy to leave out of my top 8. Forgive me Leafs fans; I was a big advocate for Apps and Gilmour where they went

Sundin is Modano's equal in regular season offense, but Modano is way ahead in defense and playoffs, so there should be real separation. Sittler seems a step down from Hawerchuk and Savard, and they are far from guarantees to make this round (though they should and will make our top 60). Primeau was great at his best, but has what, 4 relevant seasons?

Mats Sundin is one of the most overrated players in NHL history. The only reason that He gets the accolades that He does, is because He played for the Leafs. He was an above average player that played a long time. Sittler, IMO, was a much better player then Sundin. I think Sittler really doesn't get His due a lot of times, because of Gilmour & Sundin.

 

[sr edler]

And he has no defensive value to bring that up.

Sundin wasn't Selke but he wasn't bad defensively.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The only reason that He gets the accolades that He does, is because He played for the Leafs.

At what point in my rambling post did I come across as a Leafs fan?

 

[MadArcand]

Sundin wasn't Selke but he wasn't bad defensively.

'Wasn't bad' ain't cutting it when comparing him to Mike Modano...

 

[quoipourquoi]

You just said it yourself that Sundin was good for 74-point pace year-in, year-out. That's above-average first-liner.

That's the floor of a 16-season run with the three lowest totals coming in the DPE. Sundin scored a little higher than 10 more in an average season.

 

[MadArcand]

That's the floor of a 16-season run with the three lowest totals coming in the DPE. Sundin scored a little higher than 10 more in an average season.

Which elevates him to good, consistent first liner. Not a top-50 center of all-time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

But does Sundin not start to bridge the gap with one of the more impressive international resumes among primarily NHL-based players? 39 points in 30 games of best-on-best hockey. 44 points in 35 games of World Championship play. Leading scorer in an Olympic tournament. For whatever reason, he was not named on your Canada/World Cup scoring leaders post in the research section, but he ranks 11th with 19 points in 14 games (Modano ranks 8th with 21 points in 21 games).

More than that, I do not consider them equals in regular season offense. From his sophomore season to his penultimate season, Mats Sundin was a lock for a 74-point-pace all 16 seasons while never missing more than 12 games (for an average of 3.4 missed games per year). That's a level of durability and consistency that Mike Modano did not offer. Mike Modano has his 2004s (44 points in 76 games; -21 on a 97-point playoff team) and his 1998s (missed 30 games); Mats Sundin does not. This is why despite playing 153 fewer games, Sundin has just 25 fewer points (Modano surpassing Sundin on the all-time list after Sundin retired despite Sundin's career starting later).

Modano undoubtedly has more high-points in terms of playoffs, but Sundin scored a respectable 82 points in 91 games - coincidentally, a perfect 74-point-pace over 82 games. He doesn't have the triumphs of a Mike Modano, but he seems to have contributed more than adequately on a cumulative basis.

And if we can go back to 2004 for a bit, that was Modano's response to an increased leadership role: 44 points in 76 games and a -21 on the 2nd best defensive team in the league. Captaincy: It's a role he absolutely could not handle, and it is a role that Mats Sundin thrived in. I understand that Modano had some financial issues as well, but even after he told Sports Illustrated that those issues were resolved, his level play did not increase as he scored just 10 points in his final 20 games.

I may even put Modano higher, but I disagree with the idea that there is significant separation or the idea of a "Dear God, Sundin?" response to his candidacy.

I agree that we should give Sundin credit for his international resume - it's why I would consider him top 60 at all. Modano's international resume might be below Sundin's, but how much less? Modano's international resume is pretty good. Is it lower enough to make up the massive gap in playoff performance?

Okay, assume for a minute that Sundin's international resume bridges the gap with Modano's superior playoff performances. You still get to the fact that their regular season NHL offense (which makes up the majority of their resumes) is basically the same, while Modano was a far better defensive player

And please don't classify me in the same category as MadArcand with the "Dear God Sundin already" thing. That was him who said it; not me.

Edit: I also don't see what your point is in focusing on what Modano did after 2004 in the playoffs - would he be a better player in your mind if he had retired in 2004? He wasn't as good in the regular season by that point, either.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Modano's international resume might be below Sundin's, but how much less?

Might be? It's noticeably below! We're comparing a .86 best-on-best scorer to a 1.30 best-on-best scorer - both with large sample sizes. Obviously, Modano did not make as many World Championship appearances, but when he did appear, he wasn't particularly good (two runs, one of them completely scoreless), whereas Sundin has become something of a World Championship legend, twice being the leading scorer of a tournament in which Sweden won Gold (both of those tournaments featured Centers already named to our list).

Okay, assume for a minute that Sundin's international resume bridges the gap with Modano's superior playoff performances. You still get to the fact that their regular season NHL offense (which makes up the majority of their resumes) is basically the same, while Modano was a far better defensive player

But the offense is not the same. Over the long haul, Sundin's was more consistent with higher spikes. Call it an aberration, but Sundin produced a season with 21 more points than Modano's best with both of them peaking in the same year. Maybe it would be the same if Modano focused less on defense, but at that point, you're giving him double-credit: you're rewarding him for his defensive performance while crediting him for offense that he could have produced had he not been focusing on defense.

 

[quoipourquoi]

And please don't classify me in the same category as MadArcand with the "Dear God Sundin already" thing. That was him who said it; not me.

I said or.

Edit: I also don't see what your point is in focusing on what Modano did after 2004 in the playoffs - would he be a better player in your mind if he had retired in 2004? He wasn't as good in the regular season by that point, either.

When did I focus on that? Seriously, I don't remember saying anything about Modano in the playoffs in 2004 or any other year. I commented on his 2004 regular season. I even offered up the possibility that there was more going on in his life than just the captaincy, while providing further counter-evidence that his game did not improve after the resolution of that added pressure.

And I also do not think he magically becomes a better player by retiring at 32 before he was having that season, but I think it is fair game to point out that Sundin continued to play at a high-level with three-consecutive point-per-game seasons coming out of the lockout as a 34-year-old while Modano never reached it again after 32, with his best seasons being 0.99 (2006), 0.73 (2007), and 0.70 (2008).

 

[VMBM]

The World Championships of the early '70s mean next to nothing for me. I, personally, am not surprised that once players from around the world started facing off against the best centres that N.America had to offer, that wingers had to be relied on more for scoring, and that centres would be stuck with the less flashy, but increasingly difficult through the 80s, job of keeping things in order in both directions.

Whether you rate the World Championships or not, at least they should tell something about how a Petrov or a Larionov compare to his team-/linemates (statistics and accolades), and Petrov is closer to his linemates and other Soviet greats than Larionov.
And it's not like Petrov sucked in best-on-best either (1972 Summit Series, 1975-76 Super Series), although the sample size isn't big. And he scored more goals vs. Czechoslovakia/Jiri Holecek (a legitimately good team throughout the 1970s) than any other Soviet player: 33 goals in 53 games (http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_player_info.asp?p_id=p007).

IMO it's not fair to suggest that Petrov was merely an offensive center; from what I've seen, he worked pretty hard at both ends of the ice, and, unlike Larionov, was a regular penalty killer on Team USSR. Whether Larionov was more talented defensively than Petrov, that is another question (he probably was).

Also, I would point out the fact that as teams, both CSKA and USSR were more dominant in the 1980s than in the 1970s; I don't know why it would have been more difficult for Larionov to score better (than he did).

But also, am I wrong in assuming that Kharlamov and Mikhailov are going to end up voted in higher than Makarov and Krutov when the Wingers project comes along? I think they opened up a lot of room in the middle of the ice for Petrov offensively in that day... something Larionov certainly wasn't able to experience to the same degree despite having someone like Makarov riding shotgun.

Hmmm... Makarov nowadays is more highly rated than Kharlamov (or Mikhailov), it seems. Krutov is not very liked, unfortunately, but that has got nothing to do with his performances internationally/in the Soviet league; it's his 'collapse' in 1989-90, and the (possible) reasons for it.
Anyway, Krutov had as high a peak (ca 1986-88) as any other Soviet player. Makarov and Krutov rode the shotgun.

If someone truly has observed that the role of the center in Soviet hockey was different in the 1980s, and Larionov did 'much more' (defensively/other ways) than Petrov, I'd be very intrested to hear that, but as of now, it is just a theory IMO.

EDIT:

Petrov's big slapshot is - of course - one of the reasons, why he was a bigger scoring threat than Larionov, and this might (again: MIGHT) have affected their roles on their forward lines somewhat.

 

[MXD]

Impression on newcomers

As always : before arguments.

Marty Barry should really have been available last round, instead of a guy like Vladimir Petrov or Mickey Mackey. In spite of all you're gonna read in this thread, one has to remember he was part of the notoriously underachieving Bruins squad for the most of his career. Still, to me, he starts the round in the Top-4. Tidbit of info : The player right below Marty Barry in my initial list? Joe Thornton.

Frank Frederickson? I'd call him a Top-8 hopeful so far, but starting right out. Awesome to have him available simultaneously to Mackey. Wonder how of his case rests on that big season.

Joe Primeau? Here's a guy I probably put too high on my initial list. Short career + production arguably totally dependent on two better wingers, on a team that was very top heavy (doesn'T have the possible icetime issues that some other candidates or future candidates have as far as accumulating points is concerned). At this point, I'd go as far as to say he isn't a Top-60 center of all time. But then.... he was a pretty decent playoffs guy for the era. This is the first name I see and think something like "Not sure this one gets in at all". I'm not exactly sure why I had him quite a bit ahead of Neil Colville. Primeau also has the distinction of being the worst goalscorer available so far, and I'd go as far as to say he's possibly the worst goalscorer we'll see available in the whole project, and yes, I totally expect that THAT GUY will come up for voting at some point.

Mats Sundin? A not-quite-compiler but ... well, lack of awards make him a look like a compiler. Very good international resume, but I really don't care about non best on best. Are we really ready to give that much importance to 30 games when the reason he's here is... by playing for a very long time without accolades? Starts out of the Top-8, and shouldn't make it.

I think I like Sittler better out of the three Leafs. But then again, I can't even think of having him ahead of easy comparables Ratelle, Hawerchuk and Savard, who aren't exactly 1-2-3 going in (well, except for the 1 - Ratelle part). Starts out of the Top-8.

 

[unknown33]

Sundin has no shot yet, but last round we heard complains how Malkin is to inconsistent and lacks logenvity. Now Sundin who exactly fits those criteria gets all the hate from the same poster?

 

[MadArcand]

'Hate'? Thinking he should be around 60-tish and it's too soon is hating on him?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I tend to think that players who want to break into the NHL are responsible for adapting to their team's needs, instead of the reverse.

That's a legitimate perspective- an old-school perspective... and I wouldn't engage on the History of Hockey sub-forum if I didn't have interest in the old-school. Looking more deeply into this may take us a little afield from the thread's intent- but I think I'm on safe ground when I say that one of the key challenges of Leadership/Management- in Sports as well as in many other places in life, is to recognize that there needs to be a uniform set of standards, but individuated methods of motivation-- as different people respond best to different methods of motivation.

The "care-and-feeding" of stars/superstars is not a simple thing... and something people won't get a feel for by playing a console-game. There's an art to it- and mastering that art is why someone like Phil Jackson will rightly be remebered as a legend.

I'd imagine that a quiet, non-flashy player with serious back issues would have a rough go of it in the late O-6.

Yes- and a player with such issues being told that he was soft and wasn't throwing his body around enough- and having the threat of demotion to the minors held over his head if he didn't- that must have been a real SoilSandwich...

 

[sr edler]

'Wasn't bad' ain't cutting it when comparing him to Mike Modano...

Sundin was good defensively. He was a big body and could hold his own in his own zone. And he was strong on faceoffs. Much like Lindros. No, he wasn't as good defensively as Modano was at his best or as agile on his skates, and sometimes he could look clumpsy and take some stupid penalties that would look a bit unnecessary, but I don't think Sundin's defensive game was ever an issue in Toronto or anywhere else.

Modano in Minnesota and early Dallas in the early 90s also wasn't a wizard defensively, when he scored his consecutive seasons with 93 points and a 50 goal season [ironically under coach Bob Gainey]. I think he took that step first when Hitchcock & DPE entered the scene and when he played on a real good defensive team with three time Selke winner Jere Lehtinen on his wing. You know who played on Sundin's wing? Notorious puck hog & floater Sergei Berezin. And yeah, Jonas Höglund.

But I don't think you have to worry about Sundin going at 45th, or even top 50. I can't see him go this round and what's to say he would even go next round? He does seem to have his fair share of detractors.