Round 2, Vote 11 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 11 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday Jan 27 at 9PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday, Jan 26.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

Vote 11 will be for places 40 through 43/44 (4/5 places) on the Top 60 list (If we can catch up and add 5 we will, if not, we will only add 4).

There are 12 eligible candidates for Vote 11. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:


Russell Bowie
Pavel Datsyuk
Dale Hawerchuk
Igor Larionov
Mickey MacKay
Evgeni Malkin
Mike Modano
Gilbert Perreault
Vladimir Petrov
Jean Ratelle
Denis Savard
Hooley Smith

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No Marty Barry = boooo. It's really a shame that I'll probably end up voting for Hooley Smith when Barry isn't even an option yet.

IMO's Malkin's peak is just too hard to ignore at this point - he'll definitely be in my top 4. Russell Bowie is penciled into my top 4, as well. This isn't the ATD or similar team building exercise - we can take historical significance into account here. Based on my ballot last time, I would tentatively have Smith, Perreault, and Datsyuk round out my top 5, but damn, really hate voting for Smith when Barry isn't even an option yet.

New candidates:

Petrov should definitely go over Larionov. Does that mean he should go now? Maybe, maybe not.

Savard and Hawerchuk are very close for me, but I doubt I'm voting for either of them.

Modano? Worth comparing to Savard and Hawerchuk. Also Datsyuk. I'm still not convinced Datsyuk is any better.

MacKay? Maybe I need to learn more about him, but I had him as basically the equal of his contemporaries Frank Fredrickson and Duke Keats, not really in the mix yet.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

ALL-STAR VOTING RESULTS

Here are the first-, second-, and third-team year-end all-star voting results:

Player | First | Second | Third | Total
Wayne Gretzky | 8 | 7 | 1 | 16
Jean Beliveau | 6 | 4 | 1 | 11
Mario Lemieux | 5 | 4 | 0 | 9
Stan Mikita | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Phil Esposito | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Bobby Clarke | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7
Bill Cowley | 4 | 1 | 1 | 6
Syl Apps | 2 | 3 | 1 | 6
Milt Schmidt | 3 | 1 | 2 | 6
Henri Richard | 1 | 3 | 2 | 6
Norm Ullman | 1 | 1 | 4 | 6
Ted Kennedy | 0 | 3 | 3 | 6
Elmer Lach | 3 | 2 | 0 | 5
Joe Sakic | 3 | 0 | 2 | 5
Marcel Dionne | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Bryan Trottier | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Sidney Crosby | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Joe Thornton | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Gilbert Perreault | 0 | 2 | 3 | 5
Peter Forsberg | 3 | 0 | 1 | 4
Frank Boucher* | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Hooley Smith* | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Max Bentley | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Dave Keon | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Steven Stamkos | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Sid Abel | 2 | 1(2) | 0 | 3(4)
Evgeni Malkin | 3 | 0 | 0 | 3
Howie Morenz* | 2 | 1 | 0 | 3
Mark Messier | 2(4) | 0(1) | 1 | 3(6)
Eric Lindros | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Steve Yzerman | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3
Neil Colville | 0 | 2(3) | 1 | 3(4)
Peter Stastny | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3
Ron Francis | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3
... | | | |


Pavel Datsyuk | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Dale Hawerchuk | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Mike Modano | 0 |1 |1 | 2
Denis Savard | 0 |1 |1 |2
Jean Ratelle | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1

A few points:

• As a reminder, I was able to award a third team all-star (unofficial, but derived from the actual voting results) for every year from 1931 to 2013 except 1941, 1962, 1953 and 1958.
• For players with numbers in brackets (i.e. Mark Messier), the first number shows the results only at centre. The second number (in brackets) shows the total results for centre plus any other positions where they finished top three or better in voting.
• Players with an asterisk (*) next to their name played a significant portion of their career before 1930-31 (the first year all-star teams were determined) and their rankings may be understated.

MacKay, Petrov, and Bowie never played in the NHL. Larionov came over at 29 years old.

HART TROPHY ANALYSIS

Here are the Hart trophy results for each player. I'm using HO's cut-off of 5% the maximum available votes and shamelessly copying his format

Player|Results
Evgeni Malkin | 1st, 2nd, 2nd
Hooley Smith | 2nd, 3rd, T-4th
Mike Modano | 7th, 7th, 10th
Denis Savard | 3rd, 5th
Jean Ratelle | 4th, 8th
Gilbert Perreault | 5th, 7th
Dale Hawerchuk* | 2nd
Pavel Datsyuk | 3rd
Igor Larionov | none
Russell Bowie | N/A
Vladimir Petrov | N/A
Mickey MacKay | N/A

* In 1982, Hawerchuk was 5th in Hart voting with a 4% share, however this was an unusual year as Gretzky won the only unanimous Hart in history. Only two other players reached the 5% thresold that year (Trottier and Bossy).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here are the 7-year Vs-X scores for anyone who wants to look at them

Player|Result
Jean Ratelle | 88.5
Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
Denis Savard | 85.4
Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
Pavel Datsyuk | 82
Mike Modano | 81.7
Evgeni Malkin | 80.7 (86.6*)
Hooley Smith | 78.8
Igor Larionov | 53.7

*second number includes projected finish for 2013-14. See This post. 2013-14 doesn't change Datsyuk's number

Ratelle looks as good here as he looks bad in awards recognition.

Things really change for Malkin if you start to include his current season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Maltsev, Petrov, Larionov's summary of accomplishments in the USSR and Internationally

Maltsev was added a couple of rounds ago, but I think it's worth including him as a comparison point.

Alexander Maltsev

• Domestic Scoring finishes: 1st (1971), 2nd (1974), 3rd (1976), 3rd (1977)
  Note that unlike Petrov, Maltsev did not play for the stacked Red Army Team domestically.
  
• Domestic Awards
  • Soviet Player of the Year voting: 1st (1972), 2nd (1970), 2nd (1981), 3rd (1971), 4th (1974), 4th (1976), 4th (1978), 4th (1980)
  • 1st Team All-Star Center (1970, 1971, 1972, 1974, 1978, 1980, 1981)
  • 2nd Team All-Star Right Wing (1973)
  • 3rd Team All-Star Center (1969)
• International Awards and Statistics
  • Tied for the scoring lead in the 1976 Olympics with 4 others (3 of them teammates)
  • All-Star at the 1976 Canada Cup (only Soviet All-Star)
  • World Championships Directorate Best Forward (1970, 1972, 1981)
  • World Championships All-Star Forward (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981)

Vladimir Petrov

• Domestic Scoring finishes: 1st (1970), 1st (1973), 1st (1975), 1st (1978), 1st (1979), 2nd (1977), 3rd (1972), 5th (1976)
  Note that 1970 is based off goals only.
  
• Domestic Awards
  • Soviet Player of the Year voting: 2nd (1973), 2nd (1977), 4th (1975), 5th (1981)
    Note that we only have the winner for 1979, rather than top 5 like most years.
  • 1st Team All-Star Center (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)
  • 2nd Team All-Star Center (1969, 1971)
• International Awards
  • World Championship All Star Forward (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

Igor Larionov

• Domestic Scoring Finishes: 2nd (1986), 2nd (1988), 3rd (1987), 5th (1982), 5th (1985)
  
• Domestic Awards
  • Soviet Player of the Year voting: 1st (1988), 4th (1986), 4th (1987)
  • All-Star Center (1983, 1986, 1987, 1988)
• International Awards and Statistics
  • Tied for 2nd in scoring at the 1988 Olympics (behind linemate Krutov)
  • World Championship All-Star Forward (1983, 1985, 1986)

Petrov is funny. His domestic league stats are out of this world, but his awards recognition is barely better than Larionov's. (Petrov had much stronger competition for All-Star center than Larionov had, however, in the form of Maltsev). Maltsev's international recognition blows them both away.

 

[sr edler]

Nice additions, I like those new players but I'll say I can't really see what separates Mickey McKay from contemporary players like Bernie Morris, Frank Fredrickson & Tommy Dunderdale, or even Frank Foyston. For what it's worth McKay never led a league [PCHA|WCHL] in points while Fredrickson & Dunderdale did it twice, and Morris once. And Foyston was a very versatile forward.

 

[sr edler]

And how good was Savard defensively?

 

[MadArcand]

Could it be that Malkin finally cracks my top-10 this round?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And how good was Savard defensively?

Basically nonexistent defensively when he was in his scoring prime in Chicago - his linemate Steve Larmer did the backchecking for that line.

In Montreal, Savard started playing two-way hockey to prolong his career, but he was past his scoring prime by then:

Savard's newfound responsibilities as a two-way forward meshed well with his offensive abilities, but it also taught him a valuable lesson. "I scored 28 goals in my first two seasons in Montreal," he states. "I concentrated more on defense and playing at both ends of the ice and it prolonged my career. I say to players today, 'If you're able to make that adjustment, especially when you're an offensive player, you can prolong your career by being able to play on both ends of the ice.' Those were my eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth seasons and I wound up playing seventeen years."

 

[sr edler]

Could it be that Malkin finally cracks my top-10 this round?

He played in more games than Bowie so at least he must be better than him, right? Anyone who plays in more games than a different player obviously has a clear advantage in playing ability and general skill level, or so I have heard. And Bowie's CAHL playoffs stats dropped with about 2000 per cent from his regular season pace.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He played in more games than Bowie so at least he must be better than him, right? Anyone who plays in more games than a different player obviously has a clear advantage in playing ability and general skill level, or so I have heard. And Bowie's CAHL playoffs stats dropped with about 2000 per cent from his regular season pace.

I know you're trying to be facetious, but Bowie had a ridiculously long career (and prime) for someone of his era.

 

[MadArcand]

He played in more games than Bowie so at least he must be better than him, right? Anyone who plays in more games than a different player obviously has a clear advantage in playing ability and general skill level, or so I have heard. And Bowie's CAHL playoffs stats dropped with about 2000 per cent from his regular season pace.

But Bowie faced better competition.

 

[sr edler]

^ That Ottawa team he dried up against in the 1903 playoffs was actually quite legendary.

 

[MadArcand]

^ That Ottawa team he dried up against in the 1903 playoffs was actually quite legendary.

Don't worry, I'm sure the Bruins team that Malkin was an impressive 0+0 -5 against last season is also legendary. Having no legit 1st-liners has to count for something.

 

[VMBM]

Igor Larionov

• World Championship All-Star Forward (1983, 1985, 1986)

I know that the hockeycanada.ca site (http://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/Team-Canada/Men/World-Championship/2013-Stockholm/All-Stars) has Krutov, Larionov and Ruzicka as the 1985 WC All-Star forwards, but I think it's a mistake. For example, SFRP's Hockey Archive (Czech/international) has Makarov (RW), Ruzicka (C) and Krutov (LW) for 1985 (http://hokej.sfrp.cz/ms/ms1985.html). Chidlovski (http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_player_info.asp?p_id=l001) doesn't have anything about Larionov being in the 1985 WC All-Star team either (only 1983 and 1986), plus it would be strange that Makarov, who was named the best forward in the 1985 WC, wouldn't have been selected to the All-Star team - although this has happened sometimes too (e.g. 1978 and 1983).

About Petrov: he was known as a 'difficult bugger', who had problems with authorities, so that might have affected his MVP voting sometimes. Actually, Larionov had those problems too, so it's possible in his case also. Hard to prove such things, of course, but because it's Soviet Union we're talking about, it's not impossible. Namely, it is really weird that e.g. in 1970 (51 goals domestically & good WC performance) and 1978 (1st in pts) Petrov did so poorly in the MVP voting. In 1979, he would have likely done well, but like mentioned, we don't have information outside the winner (Mikhailov). Another thing is that Petrov wasn't flashy, he wasn't very fast, and whereas Kharlamov and Mikhailov liked to have the puck, and - at least in Kharlamov's case - liked to challenge defensemen 1-on-1, Petrov was usually looking for his linemates (to make a pass to). Also, he doesn't have that one huge performance vs. Team Canada/NHL, like Kharlamov had in 1972 and Mikhailov in 1979 (Challenge Cup). Still, Petrov has those great scoring stats, and he has good, if not great, intangibles. He had some leadership qualities too; along with Mikhailov and Tsygankov, he was the one whom the other CSKA players deferred to in the 1970s (according to Viktor Tikhonov). Finally, playing with Kharlamov and Mikhailov might have had its benefits, but I don't believe for a second that a 'passenger' would have so regularly outscored his linemates; I mean, in a tournament or two, sure, but for over a decade? No way.

PS. Hopefully Vaclav Nedomansky will also be eligible soon. His international and domestic achievements outshine Larionov's, and he proved that he could play fairly well in the NHL as a >30 year-old. One of the best European goal-scorers of all-time.

 

[Sturminator]

Nice additions, I like those new players but I'll say I can't really see what separates Mickey McKay from contemporary players like Bernie Morris, Frank Fredrickson & Tommy Dunderdale, or even Frank Foyston. For what it's worth McKay never led a league [PCHA|WCHL] in points while Fredrickson & Dunderdale did it twice, and Morris once. And Foyston was a very versatile forward.

MacKay was an excellent defensive forward, and practitioner of the hook check. He spent a lot of time at rover (which during that epoch of the PCHA was something like a defensive midfielder) before the PCHA dropped the 6th skater, and had a lot more defensive responsibilities than pure "forwards". MacKay is maybe a small tick behind Frederickson offensively, but he more than makes up for it in defensive value, IMO.

 

[MXD]

Here is a round where I really need to be convinced that the new entrants don't go straight at the bottom of the pile, that Smith and Ratelle are not the obvious Top-1-2 players.

 

[pluppe]

Anyone care to make an argument for having Crosby at #22 and Malkin over #40?

 

[overpass]

I posted last round about Hawerchuk having played in the Smythe division. It's only fair to look at Denis Savard and the Norris division as well.

Each of the four divisions of the 1980s NHL was arguably the toughest in the league. The Smythe was certainly the toughest to win, as the Edmonton Oilers were almost impossible to beat. The Patrick was the toughest to make the playoffs in, with six teams and always at least four good teams. The Adams might have had the toughest competition on average, with some strong teams and no bad teams. And the Norris was just the toughest - full of goons, fights, and brawls.

As a result of playing in the Norris, Savard might be the only player considered to play with a true heavyweight fighter on his wing consistently (Al Secord). That was the Norris division for you. But style aside and just looking at wins and losses, the Hawks consistently played one of the easiest schedules in the league.

Using hockey-reference's strength of schedule metric, which calculates the average goal differential of a team's opponent, here are Chicago's numbers in the 1980s.

1980-81: 0.01 (8th of 21)
1981-82: -0.10 (18th of 21)
1982-83: -0.12 (21st of 21)
1983-84: -0.11 (17th of 21)
1984-85: -0.17 (20th of 21)
1985-86: -0.17 (18th of 21)
1986-87: -0.07 (17th of 21)
1987-88: -0.12 (19th of 21)
1988-89: -0.10 (18th of 21)
1989-90: -0.05 (18th of 21)

The NHL played a balanced schedule in Savard's rookie year. But through his best years the Hawks consistently had one of the weakest slates of opponents.

The effect was even more pronounced in the playoffs. With the first two rounds against Norris division teams, Savard was in a great position to rack up the points. While if they made the conference finals they would get wiped out by the Oilers, even there Edmonton wasn't the hardest team to score against.

 

[Sturminator]

Not seeing Marty Barry at this point is disappointing, but predictable. Some people had him quite low, too low I'd say, on their Round 1 lists. Hopefully he comes up in the next round. It's not yet a gross injustice, but it's getting there.

Modano vs. Datsyuk should be an interesting comparison. My gut tells me they are very close at this point.

Smith and Ratelle look good to make my final top-4. Both had their issues in the playoffs, but at this point I think they're simply the best players left on the board. After those two, the field looks pretty open to me.

Petrov deserves a meaningful discussion here. He is an interesting player: a center who played more like a winger in Tarasov's peculiar system. Petrov is something of a puzzle. He had a great slapshot in an era when the slapper was considered uncivilized by the Soviet hockey world. He played center, but probably carried the puck less than either of his linemates. He often outscored his linemates, but seems to have been considered quite consistently the least important of the three by the Soviet press and voters. He was big and strong and could be quite physical when he wanted to, but also has something of a reputation as a soft perimeter player. I don't really know what to make of him, but this is probably the range where he belongs, and I think he's clearly better than Larionov.

 

[edinson]

Anyone care to make an argument for having Crosby at #22 and Malkin over #40?

Crosby has played more games (519 vs 496), easily has the better per-game offensive output (1.41 vs 1.23 PPG), while being the superior defensive player.

Also, a lot of players in this range are pretty close so I'd say that the difference isn't as large as their rankings would suggest.

 

[BraveCanadian]

No Marty Barry = boooo. It's really a shame that I'll probably end up voting for Hooley Smith when Barry isn't even an option yet.

Not seeing Marty Barry at this point is disappointing, but predictable. Some people had him quite low, too low I'd say, on their Round 1 lists. Hopefully he comes up in the next round. It's not yet a gross injustice, but it's getting there.

Having had him in the ATD and based on the analysis of him vs. Smith last round.. yeah.. it is too bad he isn't up yet.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Solid

And how good was Savard defensively?

Very solid beyond his sixth NHL season. Used being a RHS to advantage.

 

[sr edler]

No Marty Barry = boooo. It's really a shame that I'll probably end up voting for Hooley Smith when Barry isn't even an option yet.

I think Barry's a player who's flown under many voters rader because he doesn't have a sexy resume or name. I had him pretty low myself. He's got two Cups and one First Team All Star selection but doesn't really stand out as a world beater on paper. And I haven't even seen a photo of him, so he's kind of hard to relate to.

Very solid beyond his sixth NHL season. Used being a RHS to advantage.

So what happened in his seventh season? Did he change his style? TDMM said up thread Savard was basically nonexistent defensively in his Chicago prime years which should include his 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th season.