Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

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[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 10 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Monday Jan 20 at 9PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Sunday, Jan 19.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

Vote 10 will be for places 37 through 40 (4 places) on the Top 60 list.

There are 11 eligible candidates for Vote 10. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Russell Bowie
Pavel Datsyuk
Alex Delvecchio
Dale Hawerchuk
Igor Larionov
Eric Lindros
Evgeni Malkin
Adam Oates
Gilbert Perreault
Jean Ratelle
Hooley Smith

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Please note: the voting period ends an hour earlier than usual this time

 

[seventieslord]

Ahh, yes. Datsyuk vs. Malkin.

I'll be the first to openly question, all things considered, are we really that sure that Malkin has delivered more value than Datsyuk?

Hooley Smith must get in now.

Larionov seems fairly weak for this class; everyone else is going to get a serious look from me.

Bowie was the most dominant of all players here, but also against the weakest class of players. It's going to be a mixed bag of votes for this guy.

 

[Sturminator]

Of the new names, Hooley Smith looks like a very strong candidate to make it this round, and I think Jean Ratelle has a shot at it, as well. Definitely too early for Bowie and Larionov, imo, though a comparison between Datsyuk and Smith may well show them to be damn near equals. My respect for Pavel Datsyuk has grown a lot recently.

 

[seventieslord]

out of the "full career scorers" who weren't major factors defensively, I'l thinking it goes:

Oates
Ratelle
Perreault
Hawerchuk

and Perreault's numbers are such that I should have him last, but there's that perception factor he seems to have compared to Dale.

I could be compelled to put Ratelle ahead of Oates too. There are two good reasons:

- He's only marginally behind in VsX, but way more of his points were goals. He was top-20 in goals 7 times (despite being often called a playmaker)
- He was actually a bit of a factor defensively, more than any of these other three... wasn't he?

I think I'll have Hooley and Delvecchio 1/2 this round, and the above 4 likely in that order somewhere. Larionov last, and Lindros ahead of Malkin by 2-3 spots. Datsyuk.... probably in between those two. Bowie? Who the hell knows.

 

[sr edler]

Oh, Larionov? I had him on my list naturally but didn't expect him to come up this soon. Also, I'm not as big of a fan of Datsyuk as some others. Ratelle, Smith and Bowie are up in the air for me.

 

[MadArcand]

Now that's easy Hooley Smith #1.

Everyone new except maybe Ratelle goes ahead of the already-worst Malkin, too.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i'm not going to be posting from home again until monday, so no long tables from me until then.

But where's all the love for Hooley Smith coming from? I realize he has one of the best awards record of anyone available, and we've been kind of slow at adding guys from his era.

But offensively, he's worse in than everyone added so far except Keon, and while the Hooligan was very good defensively, I got the impression he was in the "next best" tier of defensive players, not the super-duper-awesome defense class that Keon (and arguably Fedorov) were in.

But the big difference between Hooley and Keon(and Fedorov or Gilmour)? They were playoff legends. Hooley is a basically a playoff no-show, at least statistically. 19 points in 54 playoff games is terrible, no matter the era. Edit: Unlike his scoring, Hooley picked up his PIMs pace in the playoffs - from 1.42 PIM per regular season game to 2.02 PIM per playoff game.

I'm open to the case for Hooley, but those are some pretty big obstacles he must overcome.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Another thing - Why Datsyuk over Modano? I had and still have Modano over him. Am I underrating Datsyuk?

I hated the guy and think that he is currently the most overrated retired player on the main section of hfboards, but Eric Lindros is looking awfully attractive this round. (I feel dirty saying that)

Delvecchio basically has to go this round. I underrated him on my original list by a little bit, and we're already getting into the range where I originally had him.

 

[MadArcand]

Agree, Modano should be up by now. I don't think it's that much of a drop from Fedorov to him, really.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Gilbert Perreault and Jean Ratelle

out of the "full career scorers" who weren't major factors defensively, I'l thinking it goes:

Oates
Ratelle
Perreault
Hawerchuk

and Perreault's numbers are such that I should have him last, but there's that perception factor he seems to have compared to Dale.

I could be compelled to put Ratelle ahead of Oates too. There are two good reasons:

- He's only marginally behind in VsX, but way more of his points were goals. He was top-20 in goals 7 times (despite being often called a playmaker)
- He was actually a bit of a factor defensively, more than any of these other three... wasn't he?

I think I'll have Hooley and Delvecchio 1/2 this round, and the above 4 likely in that order somewhere. Larionov last, and Lindros ahead of Malkin by 2-3 spots. Datsyuk.... probably in between those two. Bowie? Who the hell knows.

Gilbert Perreault was very good defensively. Not Richard, Keon or even Delvecchio level but many time zones ahead of Hawerchuk and Oates. Where do you get the perception factor?

Coming out of junior he was appreciated defensively having held Guy Lafleur , still playing center, in check during the 1970 Eastern Memorial Cup finals. By his fifth NHL season the Sabres were SC Finalists because unlike Dale Hawerchuk he had bought into the team defensive structure from the 1970-71 season.Important during the 1976 Canada Cup defensively. Key during the 1983 Sabres upset of the Canadiens in the playoffs.

Likewise Jean Ratelle. Not the skater that Perreault was - not expected after two major back surgeries early in his career, but could be relied on to produce a complete shift(offensive and defensive), manage the gaps and hit his spots.

 

[ted2019]

Still can't believe that Lindros isn't in yet.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

out of the "full career scorers" who weren't major factors defensively, I'l thinking it goes:

Oates
Ratelle
Perreault
Hawerchuk

and Perreault's numbers are such that I should have him last, but there's that perception factor he seems to have compared to Dale.

I could be compelled to put Ratelle ahead of Oates too. There are two good reasons:

- He's only marginally behind in VsX, but way more of his points were goals. He was top-20 in goals 7 times (despite being often called a playmaker)
- He was actually a bit of a factor defensively, more than any of these other three... wasn't he?

I think I'll have Hooley and Delvecchio 1/2 this round, and the above 4 likely in that order somewhere. Larionov last, and Lindros ahead of Malkin by 2-3 spots. Datsyuk.... probably in between those two. Bowie? Who the hell knows.

Jean Ratelle was a solid 2 way player. He was also a surprisingly good player along the boards for a Lady Byng winner.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

i'm not going to be posting from home again until monday, so no long tables from me until then.

But where's all the love for Hooley Smith coming from? I realize he has one of the best awards record of anyone available, and we've been kind of slow at adding guys from his era.

But offensively, he's worse in than everyone added so far except Keon, and while the Hooligan was very good defensively, I got the impression he was in the "next best" tier of defensive players, not the super-duper-awesome defense class that Keon (and arguably Fedorov) were in.

But the big difference between Hooley and Keon(and Fedorov or Gilmour)? They were playoff legends. Hooley is a basically a playoff no-show, at least statistically. 19 points in 54 playoff games is terrible, no matter the era. Edit: Unlike his scoring, Hooley picked up his PIMs pace in the playoffs - from 1.42 PIM per regular season game to 2.02 PIM per playoff game.

I'm open to the case for Hooley, but those are some pretty big obstacles he must overcome.

I don't get that either.

Guess we'll soon find out.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Still can't believe that Lindros isn't in yet.

Lindros and Malkin are clearly the most dominant players available (as they were last round). This is where the longevity thing comes in, I guess.

 

[MXD]

Had Hooley Smith and Pavel Datsyuk were in last round, it would (probably) have completely changed my voting order.

And whoever talked about an asterisk = according to replies so far, I wouldn't be surprised if Smith ends up in that situation.


Let'S hear arguments first.

 

[ted2019]

Bowie is an interesting case in trying to compare Him against other players.

 

[ted2019]

Had Hooley Smith and Pavel Datsyuk were in last round, it would (probably) have completely changed my voting order.

And whoever talked about an asterisk = according to replies so far, I wouldn't be surprised if Smith ends up in that situation.


Let'S hear arguments first.

I wouldn't have Datsyuk in consideration in this round and probably the next round either.

 

[amnesiac]

I mustve underrated Hooley Smith and Larionov. Both on my list but at 70+ :S

Datsyuk by far best defensive forward of the group. Who would follow? Larionov?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I mustve underrated Hooley Smith and Larionov. Both on my list but at 70+ :S

Datsyuk by far best defensive forward of the group. Who would follow? Larionov?

Delvecchio and Smith. Maybe Larionov too

Edit: And while I think you may have underrated Larionov somewhat, I think he should have come up after Petrov (not defensively mind you, just overall)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Delvecchio and Smith. Maybe Larionov too

Edit: And while I think you may have underrated Larionov somewhat, I think he should have come up after Petrov (not defensively mind you, just overall)

Agreed.

Seems like Larionov gets credit for simply having an NHL career.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Of the new guys, Ratelle, Bowie, and Smith have a good chance to make it. I'm a big fan of Ratelle personally, his VsX scores are very impressive, and he did it while playing a pretty solid two-way game. The only knock on him is his playoff scoring, which I'll post about later. Many are going to be skeptical of Bowie, but the level of dominance he had for a significant period of time is very impressive. Larionov looks very unimpressive, and I agree wholeheartedly that Petrov should be here ahead of him. Datsyuk may be here a round or two early.

Ratelle's 7 year VsX of 88.5 is second best among candidates with 88.5 compared to Oates' 90.2. Similarly, he is second in 10 year VsX with 84.4 to Adam Oates' 87. More than anything, I think Oates and Ratelle should definitely go in this round together.

 

[MXD]

I mustve underrated Hooley Smith and Larionov. Both on my list but at 70+ :S

Datsyuk by far best defensive forward of the group. Who would follow? Larionov?

A good point can be made that Smith is actually the best defensive forward of the current group, followed by Datsyuk.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A good point can be made that Smith is actually the best defensive forward of the current group, followed by Datsyuk.

Eh, I don't know about that