Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Ken Dryden Adjusted SV%

Here you go:

Ken Dryden
Year SOG SVS PCT
1970-71 211 202 0.957
1971-72 2030 1888 0.930
1972-73 1606 1487 0.926
1974-75 1590 1441 0.906
1975-76 1651 1530 0.927
1976-77 1466 1349 0.920
1977-78 1336 1231 0.921
1978-79 1192 1084 0.909

Ken Dryden adjusted SV%, similar methodology and presentation as the O6 to 1985+ goalie comparison.1970-71 is only 6 games so it is not considered.

.930/.936/.949
.926/.932/.945
.906/.912/.925
.927/.933/.946
.920/.926/.939
.921/.927/.940
.909/.915/.928

Thank you for the data StPatrick33.
 

Morgoth Bauglir

Master Of The Fates Of Arda
Aug 31, 2012
3,776
7
Angband via Utumno
Ken Dryden adjusted SV%, similar methodology and presentation as the O6 to 1985+ goalie comparison.1970-71 is only 6 games so it is not considered.

.930/.936/.949
.926/.932/.945
.906/.912/.925
.927/.933/.946
.920/.926/.939
.921/.927/.940
.909/.915/.928

Thank you for the data StPatrick33.

You're quite welcome! There's a ton of info available on the internet that people might not suspect is there. I can't take credit for compiling the data, that was the hard work of others, but I try to keep it on hand for when I need it :)
 

Morgoth Bauglir

Master Of The Fates Of Arda
Aug 31, 2012
3,776
7
Angband via Utumno
Ken Dryden adjusted SV%, similar methodology and presentation as the O6 to 1985+ goalie comparison.1970-71 is only 6 games so it is not considered.

.930/.936/.949
.926/.932/.945
.906/.912/.925
.927/.933/.946
.920/.926/.939
.921/.927/.940
.909/.915/.928

Thank you for the data StPatrick33.

And btw, I have a spreadsheet that I found online that has nearly complete goalie stats for every goalie from 1952-53 onwards :)
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Goalie Equipment

Advancements in goalie equipment technology lagged behind the advances in skater equipment into the 1990s.

The increases in SV% since the 1994-95 partial season is a striking example of this. A post was made in this regard previously.

Jacques Plante 1970-71, 41-42 years old, nailed a .942SV% with the old equipment - leg pads weighed 17lbs each.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4310

Dominik Hasek, 30 years old, 1994-95,same number of games manages a .930SV% with lighter better equipment

Brian Elliott,prime?, 2011-12 season, same number of games manages a .940SV%. State of the art lighter better equipment.

All three appeared in 40-42 games.
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,247
1,635
Chicago, IL
Patrick Roy 1992-93 Equipment Issue

Since we are on the topic of equipment I thought I would add a little nugget about Patrick Roy's 1992-93 regular season, which was a down year for him. In Todd Denault's new book, A Season In Time, we learn that before the season began Patrick Roy signed a new contract with Koho and would be wearing their equipment for the first time. Michel and Patrick Lefebvre, who had been designing Roy's pads for some time were suppose to join him at Koho, but ended up pulling out. Here is the rest of the story in a direct quote from the book...

Caught in the middle, Roy was forced to wear a set of Koho pads that he wasn't comfortable with. Days before the onset of the playoffs, Roy arrived at the Lefebvres' with an urgent request. Laying out the Koho pads he had used all season long, he asked the Lefebvre brothers to empty them of their contents and rebuild them from the inside out. Such a suggestion would have been unthinkable for most goaltenders, but for Roy, the upcoming playoffs offered a last chance at redemption. The two brothers worked feverishly through the night, arriving at Roy's home in Ile Ducharme the next morning with the refurbished pads. Roy betrayed little anxiety as he tightened the straps around his legs, walked up and down the halls of his home, and did a couple of rudimentary stretches. Turning to the nervous Lefebvres, he boldly announced, "With these I'll win the Stanley Cup."

Not only does the illustrate how big of an issue equipment can be, but it also partially explains a "down season" right in the middle of Roy's prime. Are there any other stories like this out there?


EDIT: Also, forgot to mention that I thought the book was a great read, and I recommend picking it up.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Since we are on the topic of equipment I thought I would add a little nugget about Patrick Roy's 1992-93 regular season, which was a down year for him. In Todd Denault's new book, A Season In Time, we learn that before the season began Patrick Roy signed a new contract with Koho and would be wearing their equipment for the first time. Michel and Patrick Lefebvre, who had been designing Roy's pads for some time were suppose to join him at Koho, but ended up pulling out. Here is the rest of the story in a direct quote from the book...



Not only does the illustrate how big of an issue equipment can be, but it also partially explains a "down season" right in the middle of Roy's prime. Are there any other stories like this out there?


EDIT: Also, forgot to mention that I thought the book was a great read, and I recommend picking it up.

I'm familiar with the story, but it always struck me as being more mental than anything. It's not as if the pads restored him exactly to his prime-level of play; he might have been better in that playoff than he had ever been in his entire career.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,111
7,179
Regina, SK
This is rather interesting but why stop at the 1980s/1990s goalies?

The Original 6 goalies would have benefited from the lighter, bigger,better equipment, the advances in medical technology, the advances in defensive systems, goalie coaching and other advantages listed in TCGs study above.

There seems to be a +.006 to +.019 increase to goalies SV%. Let's apply this range to the O6 goalies under consideration. From hockeydb: actual sv%/+.006/+.019

Jacques Plante
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid[]=4310

.926/.932/.945
.929/.935/.948
.020/.926/.939
.925/.931/.944
.915/.921/.934
.906/.912/.925
.923/.929/.942
.913/.919/.932
.910/.916/.929
.902/.908/.921

Terry Sawchuk
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4794

.925/.931/.944
.912/.918/.931
.920/.926/.939
.906/.912/.925
.898/.904/.917
.907/.913/.926
.898/.904/.917
.886/.892/.905
.912/.918/.931
.916/.922/.935
.913/.919/.932
.903/.919/.922
.919/.925/.938


Glenn Hall
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=2096

.922/.928/.941
.927/.933/.946
.909/.915/.928
.897/.903/.916
.920/.926/.939
.913/.919/.932
.915/.921/.934
.929/.935/.948
.922/.928/.941
.921/.927/.940

Compared to the other goalies under consideration from the post 1985 era, the Original 6 goalies more than hold their own.

Ken Dryden, the remaining candidate, should recieve similar bumps:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1447

but available data is incomplete.

That is really sloppy methodology, as anyone with a mathematical background will tell you.

And btw, I have a spreadsheet that I found online that has nearly complete goalie stats for every goalie from 1952-53 onwards :)

did you get that from me? If so, I have a 2012 update now.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28241305/Complete Goalie Stats from 52-53 to 82-83 - updated.xls
 

pluppe

Registered User
Apr 6, 2009
693
3
Solid post, TCG (though cumulating save percentage from multiple seasons is a pretty quick way to mess up the numbers). I agree with the argument that Hasek had the better peak in the regular season. I don't think there's as much separation as you believe, and that's where we differ here. But I believe in terms of regular season career value, while Hasek's five best years are better than Roy's five best years, Roy makes it up with what we may come to find is the best out-of-prime career.

(Personally, I wouldn't count 1993 as his prime, because if we are going to claim that because Patrick Roy had a great playoff, he must have still been in his prime, then we are probably going to come to the conclusion that his prime began in 1986 and ended in 2003.)


We've looked at Hasek's prime (1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999), we've looked at Hasek's international career, and we've looked at Roy's prime (1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992). Now let's look at what's left:

Hasek
1993: 28 Games (38th); 7th in save percentage
2000: 35 Games (30th); 3rd in save percentage
2001: 67 Games (6th); 5th in save percentage
2002: 65 Games (13th); 9th in save percentage
2003: Did Not Play
2004: 14 Games (59th)
2006: 43 Games (25th); 2nd in save percentage
2007: 56 Games (18th); 13th in save percentage
2008: 41 Games (32nd); 35th in save percentage


Hasek's had some high-GP seasons, but it's worth noting that three of his eleven top-ten finishes (two of which were top-fives) came with some pretty low GP figures. 43 Games would have been a lot in the late-90s, but by 2006, a lot more was expected from starting goaltenders. By contrast, every year of Patrick Roy's career was within the top-20 in GP. Needless to say, if the most-used goaltending statistic wasn't an averaging statistic, Hasek's 1993/2000/2006 do not go down in the books as top-ten seasons, as the only qualification to be an officially-ranked goaltender is one-third of the season.


Roy
1986: 47 Games (10th); 19th in save percentage
1993: 62 Games (9th); 8th in save percentage
1994: 68 Games (6th); 3rd in save percentage
1995: 43 Games (1st); 14th in save percentage
1996: 61 Games (7th); 10th in save percentage
1997: 62 Games (8th); 4th in save percentage
1998: 65 Games (7th); 7th in save percentage
1999: 61 Games (16th); 8th in save percentage
2000: 63 Games (8th); 10th in save percentage
2001: 62 Games (10th); 13th in save percentage
2002: 63 Games (15th); 2nd in save percentage
2003: 63 Games (11th); 6th in save percentage


So, what if we stopped giving goalies who miss games from injury the amount of credit that we do not extend to players in an Art Ross race?

Top-10 Save Percentage Finishes (among goalies in the Top-20 GP)
Hasek
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 6, 8)
Roy
(1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 6, 8, 8, 8, 14)

But don´t you think the evidence thats been presented that Roy achieved these save% finishes under much more advantageous circumstances should be taken in to consideration. Now you are again just punishing Hasek, in a way that is reasonable but nobody ever claimed Hasek played as many games in the NHL. He never had the chance. Of course Roy will beat him in NHL longevity. In your point Hasek still finished top 10 in almost every season that you count (and why do you leave out 2007?)
Let´s say that Roy would have "only" have led the league once or twice. Would that make a difference to you?
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
But don´t you think the evidence thats been presented that Roy achieved these save% finishes under much more advantageous circumstances should be taken in to consideration. Now you are again just punishing Hasek, in a way that is reasonable but nobody ever claimed Hasek played as many games in the NHL. He never had the chance. Of course Roy will beat him in NHL longevity. In your point Hasek still finished top 10 in almost every season that you count (and why do you leave out 2007?)
Let´s say that Roy would have "only" have led the league once or twice. Would that make a difference to you?

I didn't leave out 2007. It just so happens to move up from a 13th place finish to an 8th place finish when you remove the goaltenders that recorded less than a Top-20 finish in GP from the official record.

Are you asking me if it would make a difference to me if Patrick Roy was a worse goaltender? Yes, if Patrick Roy was a worse goaltender, that would make a difference. May I ask if it made a difference to you when people corrected the numbers of their respective career losing percentages which you claimed was "one of the most amazing stats in hockey"?


And Dominik Hasek did have the chance to increase his NHL longevity: He could have been healthier. He could have worked harder to supplant Ed Belfour and Jimmy Waite (imagine if he was trying to break into a six-team league instead of a 21-team league). He could have not retired in 2002. Did any other goaltender in our top-seven see as many seasons result in a long-term injury requiring replacement as Hasek (1993 Draper/Fuhr, 1997 Shields, 2000 Biron, 2004 Joseph/Legace, 2006 Emery, and 2008 Osgood)? On top of a mid-career retirement year (2003 Joseph)?

Yes, I understand that he was having an out-of-prime European career that in my opinion falls closer to Konovalenko and Martin than the Holecek and Tretiak end of the spectrum, but that's not much of a reason to only want to compare Hasek to Patrick Roy in their respective peaks while ignoring that the bigger difference in their longevity is that Roy's out-of-prime career in Colorado was its own separate HOF career.

We've asked, Where does Hasek place on our list if he only played in Europe? I'm not going to put a number on either, but try ranking it against Patrick Roy in Colorado and see if you still come up with excuses as to why neither Dominik Hasek nor any other goaltender in history has Patrick Roy's career consistency.
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

Registered User
Apr 2, 2007
30,332
11
Halifax
(Personally, I wouldn't count 1993 as his prime, because if we are going to claim that because Patrick Roy had a great playoff, he must have still been in his prime, then we are probably going to come to the conclusion that his prime began in 1986 and ended in 2003.)

We've looked at Hasek's prime (1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999), we've looked at Hasek's international career, and we've looked at Roy's prime (1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992).

Okay, this is where you're going to have to describe the difference between "peak" and "prime" for you. Because I don't see how Roy's prime can possibly extend back to '86 (through two of his worst seasons, taken as a whole), but Hasek's can't extend to 2001 (another Vezina, 11 shutouts, etc). Hasek's first Vezina season started in '93, too, btw. So... I'd put Hasek's peak (pretty much equivalent to his prime, regardless of semantics) at '93-'01.

Roy's prime... I guess I'd say the '88/89 season through to '93/94 is fair. I don't know what to say about '99 and '00 other than to call it a second peak. I have a hard time considering most of Roy's time in Colorado as "prime", even though his level of play far from dropped off. He still had great numbers playing on a great team, but most of the time failed to even get consideration as one of the top 2 goalies in the league. Heck, by the end even guys like David Aebischer, Marc Denis, and Craig Billington had little trouble duplicating Roys numbers on the same team (smaller, more selected sample sizes, granted). That has to be considerable food for thought in terms of whether Roy was still "prime" or not, regardless of what one sees when they open up the stats page.

Same goes for Hasek for most of his time on the Wings. Posted similar numbers to the other goalie(s) on the same team for the most part, with a mini-resurgence (like Roy) near the end where he cleaned Emery's numbers in Ottawa (had a better SV% that season than Vezina-winning Kiprusoff, too), then went on to post better numbers than Osgood on the way to the Cup the next year back in Detroit.
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,539
4,915
It wasn't the numbers for Roy that were wrong though, it was Hasek's numbers that were as Sanf already corrected.
Though they still don't seem right to me and I included tourny games from each season for Hasek.

Sorry for the confusion.

It seems you didn't include other national team games outside of the World Championship, Olympic Games and Canada Cup, therefore the different sets of numbers.

1985-1986:
45 czechoslovak league games (including playoffs)
9 world championship games
12 other national team games
Total: 66 games (Patrick Roy: 67)

1986-1987:
43 czechoslovak league games (incl. playoffs)
9 world championship games
15 other national team games
Total: 67 games (Patrick Roy: 53)

1987-1988:
31 czechoslovak league games (incl. playoffs)
? european cup games (7 at most)
5 olympic games
6 Canada Cup games
10 other national team games
Total: 52-59 games (Patrick Roy: 67)

1988-1989:
42 czechoslovak league games (incl. playoffs)
10 world championship games
6 other national team games
Total: 58 games (Patrick Roy: 67)

1989-1990:
40 czechoslovak league games (incl. playoffs)
? european cup games (3 at most)
8 world championship games
5 other national team games
Total: 53-56 games (Patrick Roy: 65)

So Patrick Roy played more games in the late 1980s indeed. The difference is significant, but just not as big as some think.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Because I don't see how Roy's prime can possibly extend back to '86

I was making a joke about how TCG was extending Roy's prime from 1992 to 1994 because Roy had good playoffs... which is something that happened his entire career, particularly in the seasons outside of his prime.


Roy's prime... I guess I'd say the '88/89 season through to '93/94 is fair.

You think cutting off a season in which Patrick Roy led the league in save percentage while including two seasons in which he was outside the top-two is the way to assess a prime? When a player has a five-year stretch of 1, 1, 1, 2, 1; his prime is pretty self-explanatory.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,778
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Applied to Original 6 Goalies

That is really sloppy methodology, as anyone with a mathematical background will tell you.

The SV%s of the O6 goalies under consideration plus Ken Dryden is stand alone impressive. The data previously posted(limited to Brodeur,Hasek,Roy) denied them the consideration of the benefits of advances in goalie equipment technology as off the mid 1990s - bigger,lighter, better equipment that did not retain water. Then you have all the other advances - medical technology, defensive systems, nutrition, travel and other advantages.

So unless you are suggesting that all of these advantages would have impacted negatively O6 goaltender performance, that they would somehow been slowed down by lighter pads or made smaller by bigger pads, then the listing offers a perspective of the actual SV% with a range to the minimal expected improvement followed by a maximal cap to the expected improvement.
 

ContrarianGoaltender

Registered User
Feb 28, 2007
868
788
tcghockey.com
(Hopefully this post is not too late to be discussed prior to this round of voting. If people think that the type of numbers I'm producing here are worthwhile I can continue running them for goalies in subsequent rounds as well.)

Patrick Roy has the highest level of overall achievement in the playoffs, according to traditional metrics like wins as well as more advanced stats like GVT. That is to his credit, but at the same time it shouldn't be that surprising as Roy played in the era of four playoff rounds, he played on consistently strong teams, and he was one of the best goalies of all-time.

A vitally important factor to consider for any goalie's playoff record is opportunity. There is a reason that Ken Dryden's 1971 Stanley Cup is celebrated far more than any of his Cups from 1976 to 1979. Taking a team farther than expected in the playoffs is what builds reputations. It is in fact one of the main arguments that people use to claim Roy is the best goalie of all-time (referring mainly to 1986 and 1993).

I do not generally put a lot of emphasis on team success. However, my philosophy is that if you are going to award points for team success, at least make sure that you account for the goalie's opportunity and expectations, and also make sure that you look at their complete record. It is not enough to know what kind of teams a goalie had when they won, but also what kind of teams they had when they lost. Opposing matchups are also important, as high seeds can cruise through early rounds while low seeds usually need to repeatedly upset top teams to make the Finals.

The Method

I developed a playoff prediction model, using Bill James' Log5 formula, which assesses the likelihood of a team winning a head-to-head matchup given their winning percentage and the record of their opponent. The formula (expressed in a slightly simpler way than in the link above) is: (W% Team A - W% Team A * W% Team B) / (W% Team A + W% Team B - 2 * W% Team A * W% Team B). This formula gives the probability of Team A winning any given game. That probability can then be used to assess the likelihood of either team winning a seven game series.

This assumes that the probability of winning each game is identical, which is not technically a correct assumption as it does not account for home-ice advantage. This therefore likely slightly underestimates the probability of the favoured team winning.

Example Calculation

I'll use Ken Dryden's 1971 playoff run as an example. The 1971 Canadiens had a .622 winning percentage, while the 1971 Bruins were at .776. The formula gives Montreal's expected win percentage in a one game matchup as .322. The probability of a team with a .322 win probability in each game winning a seven game series is just .156. That Dryden's Habs won that series represents a very significant upset, as everyone is well aware. The next round against Minnesota (.462) was much more routine, with an .812 expected series win probability. The Cup Final against Chicago (.686) was again an upset, as the Habs had a 34.9% chance of winning.

From this we can figure out the probability of the team winning any given number of playoff rounds.

Probability of 1 series win: 0.156 * (1 - .812) = 0.029
Probability of 2 series wins: 0.156 * 0.812 * (1 - .349) = 0.082
Probability of 3 series wins: 0.156 * 0.812 * 0.349 = 0.044
Expected playoff series wins: (.029) + 2(.082) + 3(.044) = 0.33

In 1971, Dryden's team won 3 playoff series when they were expected to win 0.3, which is outstanding. Of course that was just one season, in 1972 the Habs lost in the first round in a series that was roughly 50/50 (.482), and as a result won zero rounds with an expected number of 0.81. The following year the Habs again won the Cup, but given that they were heavy favourites in each round this time the team had a 71% chance of winning it all and Dryden's expected number of series won was a whopping 2.4. Anything less than a Cup victory would have been a failure for the 1973 Canadiens, and therefore Dryden gets much less additional credit for that victory.

The final step is to run the numbers for every season of the goalie's playoff career, to get their expected number of playoff series wins and Cups, and then compare them to the goalie's actual achievements.

These numbers can be easily calculated for any era of the NHL. However, the reason this is possible is that it is not actually dependent on any goaltending statistics. Dryden's goaltending did happen to be a major factor in the Canadiens' 1971 Cup win, but if his play had been average and the Canadiens won because they suddenly started scoring 6 goals per game then he would have still gotten the same credit. It is useful to compare the expected results with a goalie's statistical playoff performance to see if they are in line, or if perhaps the rest of the team might be more responsible.

The other caveat is that it assumes regular season performance is a good predictor of playoff success. Note that this is generally true. The team finishing first overall is the most likely to win the Cup, then the team finishing second, etc. Very few low-seeded teams have ever won a Cup, the 2012 Kings being a notable exception. The main problem with using regular season results is that the playoff version of the team is not always the same as the regular season version. Coaching changes and trades or other roster moves can change a team's fortunes in mid-season, and make them more formidable than their seeding suggests come playoff time. For recent years, shootout results are included in regular season numbers, which adds an element of luck to a team's standing results and probably results in poorer predictions.

One other important thing to note is that a goalie's own performance is included in the team's regular season record. Therefore, a goalie that elevates a weak team or a goalie that plays poorly and makes a good team appear worse than they are is in a sense biasing their own results, or at the very least being judged against their own usual standard. I will come back to this point later.

The Numbers

Here are the goalies currently under consideration, ranked by the total number of playoff series won above expectation:

Rank|Goalie|Series W|Exp Series|Diff|%|Cups|Exp Cups|Diff|%
1|Patrick Roy|32|23.95|+8.05|+34%|4|2.07|+1.93|+93%
2|Ken Dryden|19|14.27|+4.73|+33%|6|3.42|+2.58|+75%
3|Dominik Hasek|12|8.48|+3.52|+42%|1|0.67|+0.33|+49%
4|Martin Brodeur|23|20.87|+2.13|+10%|3|1.53|+1.47|+96%
5|Terry Sawchuk|11|9.97|+1.03|+10%|4|3.36|+0.64|+19%
6|Jacques Plante|14|14.56|-0.56|-4%|5|5.43|-0.43|-8%
7|Glenn Hall|7|8.38|-1.38|-16%|1|2.56|-1.56|-61%

A few notes about what was included:

Any time a goalie near the very end of his career in his very late thirties or forties did not play much in the playoffs, I excluded it from his numbers (Sawchuk in '65, '66 and '70, Hall 69-71, Plante '70-73, Hasek '08). Similarly, I excluded it whenever a goalie had not yet established himself as the starter and did not play the majority of the playoff games (Plante '53, Hasek '91-93, Brodeur '92). I also did not include any season where a goalie did not play at all because of injury, although Hasek's numbers are included for 1997.

There may also occasionally have been some ambiguity in defining which goalie got credit for the playoff series win, in cases where more than one goalie participated in the same series. It was usually determined to be the goalie who played the most in that series, although if there was a goalie who played most of the minutes during the entire playoff and shared multiple starts in a single series I would generally include that series as well in their numbers.

Analysis:

  • Patrick Roy ranks first with the highest difference between actual series wins and expected series wins. However, he also ranks first in expected series wins, with nobody other than Brodeur even close. In percentage of actual vs. expected Roy was virtually tied with Ken Dryden, and Roy ranks second in both most total Cups won above expected and percentage of Cups won above expected. Roy's playoff team success results are very good, and his total numbers are the best in the group. However, he doesn't stand nearly so far ahead of the pack on a percentage basis, because he should have won a lot of playoff series given his long career and the teams he played on.

  • Dominik Hasek finished first in percentage of playoff series won compared to expected. Hasek also had by far the lowest score in expected Stanley Cups with just 0.67, while every other goalie was expected to win at least 1.5.

  • Martin Brodeur was perhaps surprisingly the goalie with the highest percentage of Cups above expected, narrowly edging Roy, although there was a clear gap between Brodeur and the leaders in terms of playoff series won. Brodeur's Devils had a tendency to either lose early or go all the way. The '95 Devils were also probably underrated by their regular season results over the shortened lockout season, given the way they dominated their opponents in the playoffs.

  • Terry Sawchuk ranks even with Brodeur in percentage terms for playoff series wins, and comes in slightly above expected for Cups won. This supports the general perception that he has a fairly strong playoff record.

  • Jacques Plante's results are surprisingly underwhelming. Outside of the Canadiens' five Cups in a row in the 1950s his teams did very little in the playoffs. Plante also never won a single playoff series in which his team did not have a better regular season record than their opponent, although there were only four of those as his team was the favorite nearly all of the time.

  • Glenn Hall's team success numbers were easily the poorest of any goalie in this group. How much Hall himself was to blame has yet to be determined, but Chicago repeatedly came up short in the playoffs in the 1960s.

  • This, in short, is the basic argument why Roy's playoff career numbers are not the absolute difference-maker that requires him to be ranked ahead of Hasek. In terms of save stats they two were very close on a per-game basis (.01 apart in GVT/game, Roy with a slight edge in adjusted save percentage but that's not accounting for his Montreal defence or the lower league average in the late '80s), and if their relative team success is also similar, then really all we're doing is crediting Roy for extra opportunity, and that is not enough to offset Hasek's regular season prime advantage.

  • There are two additional issues in the Roy vs. Hasek playoff debate that have been brought up as well: The injury factor with Hasek, and the impact of regular season success on a team's winning record, particularly when a goalie himself may have made the difference between making or not making the playoffs in the first place. I've got a few more numbers coming on these two topics as well.
 

pluppe

Registered User
Apr 6, 2009
693
3
I didn't leave out 2007. It just so happens to move up from a 13th place finish to an 8th place finish when you remove the goaltenders that recorded less than a Top-20 finish in GP from the official record.

So does that mean he finished top 10 every season he had the chance?

Are you asking me if it would make a difference to me if Patrick Roy was a worse goaltender? Yes, if Patrick Roy was a worse goaltender, that would make a difference. May I ask if it made a difference to you when people corrected the numbers of their respective career losing percentages which you claimed was "one of the most amazing stats in hockey"?

No, I´m asking wether we should take the fact that Roys save% finishes was achieved under seemingly easier conditions into account when directly comparing them to Hasek. If he had Haseks circumstances he might have led the league less times. Would that have made a difference to you?

TCG mentioned a 0.53 to 0.77 GVT/game gap in their peaks. That to me looks quite large.

And yes, the improved numbers about losing% made a difference to me. But only a small one since the adjustment was minor and I still consider the numbers amazing in comparison.

And Dominik Hasek did have the chance to increase his NHL longevity: He could have been healthier. He could have worked harder to supplant Ed Belfour and Jimmy Waite (imagine if he was trying to break into a six-team league instead of a 21-team league). He could have not retired in 2002. Did any other goaltender in our top-seven see as many seasons result in a long-term injury requiring replacement as Hasek (1993 Draper/Fuhr, 1997 Shields, 2000 Biron, 2004 Joseph/Legace, 2006 Emery, and 2008 Osgood)? On top of a mid-career retirement year (2003 Joseph)?

Yes, I understand that he was having an out-of-prime European career that in my opinion falls closer to Konovalenko and Martin than the Holecek and Tretiak end of the spectrum, but that's not much of a reason to only want to compare Hasek to Patrick Roy in their respective peaks while ignoring that the bigger difference in their longevity is that Roy's out-of-prime career in Colorado was its own separate HOF career.

We've asked, Where does Hasek place on our list if he only played in Europe? I'm not going to put a number on either, but try ranking it against Patrick Roy in Colorado and see if you still come up with excuses as to why neither Dominik Hasek nor any other goaltender in history has Patrick Roy's career consistency.

We have to agree to disagree about his Euro career being out of prime. I may be biased in this case but I still think that TCG made a much more comprehensive case than you did.
 
Last edited:

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,075
137,700
Bojangles Parking Lot
It is interesting. Those playoff splits in NJ look typical of anywhere. Strange. Maybe they brought in better shot recorders for the playoffs :laugh:

I was just reviewing the thread (holy cow is there ever a lot to think about!) and caught this comment which went under the radar.

The crew of off-ice officials includes the statistician responsible for shot counts. During the playoffs, these crews are rotated so as to avoid corruption, etc, so the Devils' home officials might be working in Boston while the Penguins' guys do the game in Newark.

And the playoffs are the only time the Devils' splits magically even out?

If there's a smoking gun to be found in the shot-counting debate, that might be it.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,111
7,179
Regina, SK
The SV%s of the O6 goalies under consideration plus Ken Dryden is stand alone impressive. The data previously posted(limited to Brodeur,Hasek,Roy) denied them the consideration of the benefits of advances in goalie equipment technology as off the mid 1990s - bigger,lighter, better equipment that did not retain water. Then you have all the other advances - medical technology, defensive systems, nutrition, travel and other advantages.

So unless you are suggesting that all of these advantages would have impacted negatively O6 goaltender performance, that they would somehow been slowed down by lighter pads or made smaller by bigger pads, then the listing offers a perspective of the actual SV% with a range to the minimal expected improvement followed by a maximal cap to the expected improvement.

this is not worth the time. If anyone found the numbers you presented to be worthy of this thread they can speak up now, and then we can discuss.
 

Morgoth Bauglir

Master Of The Fates Of Arda
Aug 31, 2012
3,776
7
Angband via Utumno
Last edited by a moderator:

Rhiessan71

Just a Fool
Feb 17, 2003
11,618
24
Guelph, Ont
Visit site
Sorry for the confusion.

It seems you didn't include other national team games outside of the World Championship, Olympic Games and Canada Cup, therefore the different sets of numbers.

1985-1986:
45 czechoslovak league games (including playoffs)
9 world championship games
12 other national team games
Total: 66 games (Patrick Roy: 67)

1986-1987:
43 czechoslovak league games (incl. playoffs)
9 world championship games
15 other national team games
Total: 67 games (Patrick Roy: 53)

1987-1988:
31 czechoslovak league games (incl. playoffs)
? european cup games (7 at most)
5 olympic games
6 Canada Cup games
10 other national team games
Total: 52-59 games (Patrick Roy: 67)

1988-1989:
42 czechoslovak league games (incl. playoffs)
10 world championship games
6 other national team games
Total: 58 games (Patrick Roy: 67)

1989-1990:
40 czechoslovak league games (incl. playoffs)
? european cup games (3 at most)
8 world championship games
5 other national team games
Total: 53-56 games (Patrick Roy: 65)

So Patrick Roy played more games in the late 1980s indeed. The difference is significant, but just not as big as some think.

I honestly don't know where those games are coming from but I'm guessing some of those are the Ivestia tourny which from what I have read, is the equivalent of the Spengler Cup.
Either way, it's Roy in quantity by a bit and quality by a lot.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
So does that mean he finished top 10 every season he had the chance?

No, it means he didn't record enough games to have had a particularly large impact in seven NHL seasons since he first came to North America. Plus an extra season in which he was retired. You're acting as though he didn't have the chance to not be an injury-prone player.


TCG mentioned a 0.53 to 0.77 GVT/game gap in their peaks. That to me looks quite large.

Which strikes me as especially funny, because it's the exact same gap that you refused to believe could exist between Roy and Hasek in their respective quality games percentage when trailing in a playoff series.


We have to agree to disagree about his Euro career being out of prime.

If Hasek's European career was his prime as well, then he has little excuse for not winning a job in 1990-91, 1991-92, or distancing himself from Puppa in 1992-93.


Taking a team farther than expected in the playoffs is what builds reputations. It is in fact one of the main arguments that people use to claim Roy is the best goalie of all-time (referring mainly to 1986 and 1993).

Also, his save percentage and consistency particularly in 1986, 1989, and 1993; his tendencies to extend a series - rather than putting on less consistent performances when his team is down; his overtime performances; his leadership (which hasn't been discussed thoroughly because we've simply run out of time); his determination to never stop playing in a series despite injury; and a certain amount of sustained relevance. There's a lot of arguments outside of the unexpected Stanley Cups with anemic offensive support.


Anything less than a Cup victory would have been a failure for the 1973 Canadiens

And that's the sort of thing that's going to bother me here with this metric. Anytime I'm looking at a formula that tells me that Jacques Plante didn't win enough Stanley Cups, my skepticism really kicks in. It's like an unusually high expectation to be placed on a team with regular season success.

I know that Patrick Roy's 58.3% chance of beating the 1997 Detroit Red Wings every game wasn't exactly reflective of the 201-110 shot disparity that Roy faced compared to Vernon over six games. Just as I'm sure the 1986 Canadiens and 1993 Canadiens dried-up offense wouldn't have aided expectations made based upon their regular season performance that showed a team that was expected to contribute 4.13/3.88 goals-per-game only contribute 2.76/3.02.

I'm packing at the moment, so I'm not going to get into it too deeply. It's admirable that you tried to take a different approach, but it doesn't really do it for me, personally. It's pretty good in the short-hand though, and had we not taken fine-toothed combs to Roy's, Hasek's, Sawchuk's, Hall's, and Plante's playoffs, it would have been a good starter for the conversation. I look forward to reading your next post before I vote and depart.
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

Registered User
Apr 2, 2007
30,332
11
Halifax
That is seriously the most colorful and optimistic way I've ever seen someone describe Hasek's 2007-08. It also would have helped if Osgood didn't have a .914 to Hasek's .902.

I wasn't talking about just '07/08, but rather more broadly. Better numbers than Osgood in his Detroit return, but slightly lower numbers on the way to the Cup the following year leading into NHL retirement.

2006/07
Hasek: 56 GP, 2.05 GAA, 0.913 SV%
Osgood: 21 GP, 2.38 GAA, 0.907 SV%

2007/08
Hasek: 41 GP, 2.14 GAA, 0.902 SV%
Osgood: 43 GP, 2.09 GAA, 0.914 SV%
(no playoffs)

That's on the way to the Cup. Dom didn't have the best final playoffs of his NHL career at age 43, granted, but right up to the playoffs it was Hasek getting (most of?) the key matchups, and Osgood playing mostly against the Phoenix, St. Louis, Florida, Atlanta, L.A., Minnesota, Columbus teams through most of January/February/March. Looking back, you'll find that those were pretty much the bottom-feeders of their division(s) at the time, and ranked particularly poorly in both GF and GA.

If Hasek's European career was his prime as well, then he has little excuse for not winning a job in 1990-91, 1991-92, or distancing himself from Puppa in 1992-93.

Obviously it was a little more out of his own control than you're presenting it, given that he actually posted better numbers that his "competition" and was the goalie shipped out, regardless (small sample marginally statistically better than Belfour in his Calder/Vezina year, and similar to Belfour but miles better than Waite the next year, then better numbers than Puppa, Fuhr, and Draper his first year in Buffalo). I mean, his GAA was almost a half goal lower than Puppa in '92/93. If you don't think that's "distancing himself" from the other goalie, then I'm going to have to go look up the last time Roy finished with a GAA that much better than his backup, and see if you're comparing on equal ground here.
 
Last edited:

BM67

Registered User
Mar 5, 2002
4,775
279
In "The System"
Visit site
I was just reviewing the thread (holy cow is there ever a lot to think about!) and caught this comment which went under the radar.

The crew of off-ice officials includes the statistician responsible for shot counts. During the playoffs, these crews are rotated so as to avoid corruption, etc, so the Devils' home officials might be working in Boston while the Penguins' guys do the game in Newark.

And the playoffs are the only time the Devils' splits magically even out?

If there's a smoking gun to be found in the shot-counting debate, that might be it.

No, it doesn't magically even out.

The H/R split for both teams over the 13 years I worked the RS numbers dropped from a 9.6% higher shooting% at home to only 5.4% higher at home in the playoffs.

The SOG/G difference drops from 3.85/G to 3.68/G, but OT probably skews that a bit. (The Devils played 28 OT games, 12 at home, 16 on the road, but 53 more OT minutes at home.)

Brodeur's career H/R split difference for SOG/60 is actually slightly higher in the playoffs, but his PO SV% is higher at home, which it rarely was during the RS. His road SV% is still slightly higher over the last 13 playoffs though, .915 at home and .916 on the road.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->