Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMPORTANT NOTE: I will NOT be collecting votes for every vote this time. The second post of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to (it will be either seventieslord or TheDevilMadeMe). If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 7-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
• Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
• The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone else who wishes to participate will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2) to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 1 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Thursday, October 25. You may PM votes to me (TheDevilMadeMe) starting on October 23.

We decided to give 2 weeks for the first discussion thread, since there are bound to be some lengthy arguments. IF THE DISCUSSION DIES DOWN OR REALLY STARTS GOING IN CIRCLES, WE WILL CALL FOR AN EARLIER VOTE, SO PLEASE CHECK BACK AND READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Please note that you are ranking all 7 candidates this time.

Vote 1 will be for places 1 through 4 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Martin Brodeur
Ken Dryden
Glenn Hall
Dominik Hasek
Jacques Plante
Patrick Roy
Terry Sawchuk

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

No surprises on this list of candidates

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's sad how excited I got when I saw the thread title

We could probably put together a pretty good library of arguments surrounding Brodeur-Hasek-Roy-Sawchuk by simply linking old threads. Honestly I'm a little more interested in what the other three bring to the table, especially Hall.

 

[Sturminator]

Everybody may not agree, but I'm fairly certain that Hasek will end up the top goalie here. To me, the interesting part starts at #2. I've got Glenn Hall as the second greatest goalie of all time, narrowly above Roy and Sawchuk. I think Hall gets knocked too much for the playoff failures of his team. Simply put, he is the most dominant regular season goalie in history, and he has a Conn-Smythe trophy for the one Cup that he did win.

 

[amnesiac]

Hasek had the best peak, Roy the best playoff goalie, Brodeur best overall career.

Sawchuk beats out Plante, imo, but I find it tough to compare their eras to Roy's (high scoring from 86-95), whereas most of Hasek and Brodeur's years were played in the dead puck (96-present).

Roy's playoff dominance puts him #2 in my book, tho. I dont think Plante or Sawchuk measure up to Roy's clutchness with his 4 Cups (in a 20+ team leaugue) and 3 Conn Smythes.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Everybody may not agree, but I'm fairly certain that Hasek will end up the top goalie here. To me, the interesting part starts at #2. I've got Glenn Hall as the second greatest goalie of all time, narrowly above Roy and Sawchuk. I think Hall gets knocked too much for the playoff failures of his team. Simply put, he is the most dominant regular season goalie in history, and he has a Conn-Smythe trophy for the one Cup that he did win.

Pierre Pilote got the (Retro) Conn Smythe for the one Cup that Hall won.

Hall was awarded the Conn Smythe in 1968 as sort of a pity vote, his Blues got swept in the finals, but Hall kept every game close. There's a good argument that Plante actually was more impressive in 1969 for the Blues, but in 1968, the Blues were a first year expansion team.

It's amazing how many of these goalies had one final great surprising playoff run at the very end of their careers - Sawchuk in 1967, Hall in 1968, Plante in 1969, Brodeur in 2012.

I honestly see Hall as Brodeur with a little less playoff success, but then I am not nearly as impressed by Hall's competition for his All Star nods as some people.

 

[Sturminator]

I honestly see Hall as Brodeur with a little less playoff success, but then I am not nearly as impressed by Hall's competition for his All Star nods as some people.

Eh? He was competing against prime Plante and Bower for almost all of his prime, and had peak Sawchuk and Worsley for a while, as well. I can understand knocking the year Charlie Hodge was on the 2nd team, but Hall's competition was not weak, in general. It was definitely tougher than Sawchuk's, at any rate, and effectively the same as Plante's.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vezina Voting Top 5s (1981-present)

name|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|total
Martin Brodeur|4|3|2|2|2|13
Patrik Roy|3|2|2|1|2|10
Dominik Hasek|6|0|0|0|1|7

Vezina Voting Shares of All votes*

Player|Times|Share
Martin Brodeur|15|5.4072
Dominik Hasek|11|4.7591
Patrick Roy|17|4.6216

Vezina Voting Shares of 1st place votes*

Player|Times|Share
Dominik Hasek|7|3.6348
Martin Brodeur|12|3.0830
Patrick Roy|10|2.9413

Postseason All Star Teams

name|1st Team|2nd Team|total
Glenn Hall|7|4|11
Terry Sawchuk|3|4|7
Jacques Plante|3|4|7
Martin Brodeur|3|4|7
Dominik Hasek|6|0|6
Ken Dryden|5|1|6
Patrick Roy|4|2|6

Hart Voting Top 5s

name|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|total
Martin Brodeur|0|0|3|2|2|7
Dominik Hasek|2|1|2|0|0|5
Patrick Roy|0|1|1|1|2|5
Glenn Hall|0|0|0|2|3|5
Terry Sawchuk|0|0|1|3|0|4
Jacques Plante|1|0|0|0|1|2

Junk Stat for Team Success**

Name|Cups|Finals|Smythes|Total
Jacques Plante|5|7|1|13
Terry Sawchuk|4|7|2|13
Ken Dryden|6|6|1|13
Patrick Roy|4|5|3|12
Martin Brodeur|3|5|0|8
Glenn Hall|1|5|1|7
Dominik Hasek|1|2|0|3

*See http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1256511 for an explanation on how these are calculated.

**I'm only counting Cups and finals for which a goalie started the majority of his team's games (takes away 1 Cup/final each from Hasek and Plante), since I don't think a goalie is proving his greatness from the bench. Conn Smythes include Retro Conn Smythes, as determined by SIHR and the HHOF committee. Obviously, counting Cups and finals will be biased towards goalies who played in a 6 team league.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i won't get into the top four, but i think they're pretty locked in, with only the order up for debate. number five is probably near universally brodeur by now, as he is, as TDDM says above, pretty much hall with a better playoff resume.

but hall, who i remember a bunch of publications when i was a kid (80s/early 90s) considered a contender for greatest goalie of all time, can he fall to 7? i'm curious to see what you guys come up with, argument-wise, for hall vs. dryden. also interesting to see a guy in the course of one generation fall from possible #1 all the way down to possible #7.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Introductory Comments

The first seven under consideration:

Martin Brodeur
Ken Dryden
Glenn Hall
Dominik Hasek
Jacques Plante
Patrick Roy
Terry Sawchuk

Three distinct groups or eras.

Original 6 era is represented by Glenn Hall, Jacques Plante, Terry Sawchuk. Of all the Original 6 era goalies, Glenn Hall is the only one who enjoyed good health and never became puck shy. Plante was asthmatic, Sawchuk was a couple of medical and psychological chapters of issues. From the O6 era only Johnny Bower was close to enjoying good health - some injuries, significantly 1961 which hurt the Leafs SC chances. The others - Lumley, Rollins, Worsley, had issues from injuries, becoming puck shy, phobias-Worsley was not a comfortable flyer.

Martin Brodeur, Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy all benefited from the modern equipment era. Simply goalies could tailor equipment to their strengths and/or compensate for their weaknesses. Lighter equipment gave a relatively frail Dominik Hasek greater mobility that enhanced his strengths while mitigating the risk of groin and other mobility related injuries. Patrick Roy was able to adapt the equipment to suit his posture advantages in the butterfly, Martin Brodeur was able to find optimal equipment for his size without being burdened with additional weight that older equipment would have produced.

Ken Dryden is the bridge between the eras. Prototype big goalie that other teams tried to find, failing they turned to equipment Michelin Man imitations in the 1990's.

All seven are worthy candidates.

 

[steve141]

Hasek had the best peak, Roy the best playoff goalie, Brodeur best overall career.

How so? From a career perspective, all of these goalies except Dryden had amazing longevity.

I'm a bit at a loss on how to treat Hasek's 11 seasons of professional hockey outside of the NHL though. That's three more seasons than Drydens total career. Is there any way to determine how good he was in the Czechoslovakian league and the KHL? Is his legacy based on his 16 NHL seasons, or are his 11 seasons in Europe also factors in evaluating him?

 

[tarheelhockey]

i won't get into the top four, but i think they're pretty locked in, with only the order up for debate. number five is probably near universally brodeur by now,

Thought I was on the same page till you started that second sentence. Maybe the top-4 isn't so universal.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How so? From a career perspective, all of these goalies except Dryden had amazing longevity.

I'm a bit at a loss on how to treat Hasek's 11 seasons of professional hockey outside of the NHL though. That's three more seasons than Drydens total career. Is there any way to determine how good he was in the Czechoslovakian league and the KHL? Is his legacy based on his 16 NHL seasons, or are his 11 seasons in Europe also factors in evaluating him?

I give Hasek essentially zero credit for his play after he left the NHL for the last time. He had already lost his starting job in the NHL due to deteriorating play, and there was no indication that he was ever going to get it back. How to evaluate his time before becoming an NHL starter is an interesting question, however.

Note that Brodeur does have more top 5 Hart and Vezina finishes than anyone else, so there is something to the statement than he makes ground up on the other guys in terms of career value. Roy received at least 1 vote for the Vezina an astonishing 17 times (vs 15 for Brodeur), but Brodeur beats him 13-10 in top 5s.

 

[steve141]

I give Hasek essentially zero credit for his play after he left the NHL for the last time. He had already lost his starting job in the NHL due to deteriorating play, and there was no indication that he was ever going to get it back. How to evaluate his time before becoming an NHL started is an interesting question, however.

Good point, once he left Detroit for the second time he seemed finished as an elite goaltender. He did win the Czech championship in 2010, but I don't think the current Czech league has anywhere near the quality of the 80s.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1968 Conn Smythe

Glenn Hall's 1968 Conn Smythe was deserved. Quarter Finals he led the Blues into the Spectrum in Game 7 and won 3-1.

In the semi-finals against Minnesota, Game 7, second overtime win despite being out shot.

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?O19680036

3W/2L overtime record, 1-0 regulation road win.

Definitely a worthy Conn Smythe winner.

 

[amnesiac]

How so? From a career perspective, all of these goalies except Dryden had amazing longevity.

Well having the most wins AND mins played (by over 16% ahead of Roy) does say something in terms of his overall career. Im not necessarily putting him ahead of Sawchuk or Plante, he obviously was "lucky" to have been drafted by such a gifted team, but so goes for Plante and Dryden, imo.

Im curious, though, how everyone would rank the top 7 in terms of playoff performers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Czech League

I give Hasek essentially zero credit for his play after he left the NHL for the last time. He had already lost his starting job in the NHL due to deteriorating play, and there was no indication that he was ever going to get it back. How to evaluate his time before becoming an NHL starter is an interesting question, however.

Note that Brodeur does have more top 5 Hart and Vezina finishes than anyone else, so there is something to the statement than he makes ground up on the other guys in terms of career value. Roy received at least 1 vote for the Vezina an astonishing 17 times (vs 15 for Brodeur), but Brodeur beats him 13-10 in top 5s.

Peter Stastny is not very flattering about the 1980's Czech League talent, depth or quality.

Dominik Hasek flourished once he came to North America and was able to optimize his abilities. This did not happen immediately but took at least four seasons. So the gap between the Czech League and the NHL was significant.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Roy received at least 1 vote for the Vezina an astonishing 17 times (vs 15 for Brodeur), but Brodeur beats him 13-10 in top 5s.

Without doing any research whatsoever, I'd put a lot more stock in the top-5s than in the total number of years. A star like Roy could easily draw votes on reputation without necessarily doing anything noteworthy.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Well having the most wins AND mins played (by over 16% ahead of Roy) does say something in terms of his overall career. Im not necessarily putting him ahead of Sawchuk or Plante, he obviously was "lucky" to have been drafted by such a gifted team, but so goes for Plante and Dryden, imo.

on that note, has anybody ever done a statistical study to determine adjusted games played/minutes played? some way, i guess, to prorate the shorter O6 seasons, as well as to account for starting goalie workloads over different eras?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

i won't get into the top four, but i think they're pretty locked in, with only the order up for debate. number five is probably near universally brodeur by now, as he is, as TDDM says above, pretty much hall with a better playoff resume.

but hall, who i remember a bunch of publications when i was a kid (80s/early 90s) considered a contender for greatest goalie of all time, can he fall to 7? i'm curious to see what you guys come up with, argument-wise, for hall vs. dryden. also interesting to see a guy in the course of one generation fall from possible #1 all the way down to possible #7.

IMO Dryden is the clear #7 here, in a similar way that Lemieux is the clear #4

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

also, i have to say: the more i think about dryden's career, the more i am convinced that even though we usually talk about a "top 6" goalies of all time (three 06 guys, plus roy, hasek, and brodeur) it really should be top 7. i.e., the format you guys are using for your voting process is great because it corresponds to a natural drop off in greatness from #7 to the next group.

seven full years in the league, eight playoffs. six stanley cups, five retro vezinas/1ASTs, one runner-up, five actual vezinas, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place hart finishes.

stacked team or not, he knocked off two powerhouses that looked to be building dynasties (bruins and flyers). and it's not like those habs won any cups without him. seven full seasons and only one of them was subpar by his own standards-- and he was still considered the fourth best goalie in the league that year by all-star voters.

i almost see it like michael jordan from '91 to '98 where you can't imagine anything else the guy could have accomplished other than not retiring twice.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Thought I was on the same page till you started that second sentence. Maybe the top-4 isn't so universal.

out of curiosity, if brodeur is in your top four, is it sawchuk or plante who falls out?

 

[seventieslord]

Without doing any research whatsoever, I'd put a lot more stock in the top-5s than in the total number of years. A star like Roy could easily draw votes on reputation without necessarily doing anything noteworthy.

that can be said about "a star like Brodeur" too.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

also, i have to say: the more i think about dryden's career, the more i am convinced that even though we usually talk about a "top 6" goalies of all time (three 06 guys, plus roy, hasek, and brodeur) it really should be top 7. i.e., the format you guys are using for your voting process is great because it corresponds to a natural drop off in greatness from #7 to the next group.

seven full years in the league, eight playoffs. six stanley cups, five retro vezinas/1ASTs, one runner-up, five actual vezinas, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place hart finishes.

stacked team or not, he knocked off two powerhouses that looked to be building dynasties (bruins and flyers). and it's not like those habs won any cups without him. seven full seasons and only one of them was subpar by his own standards-- and he was still considered the fourth best goalie in the league that year by all-star voters.

i almost see it like michael jordan from '91 to '98 where you can't imagine anything else the guy could have accomplished other than not retiring twice.

On the other hand, Dryden played when the gap between the haves and have-nots was the largest it has ever been in history due to rapid expansion. And Montreal was the biggest "have" of them all, due partly to Sam Pollock basically rigging the expansion draft so that Montreal would be hurt less than the other Original 6 teams.