Prospect Info: Round 1, Pick 27: Morgan Frost, C, Sault Ste. Marie (OHL)

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deadhead

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But Sanheim and Ghost are elite hockey sense guys that make all kinds of plays in the neutral zone and at the blue lines, creating offensive chances, intercepting passes, standing guys up at the blue line. All plays in which they make split second reads. They have both had some adjustment periods, but they showed that hockey sense from the start.

Just because Hakstol scratches a guy, doesn’t mean he’s lacking in hockey sense.

For argument sake, let's split players into three categories, high IQ, normal, dumb. Gross simplification but . . .

High IQ guys don't need a lot of coaching, they learn fast and not just see the ice (vision) but anticipate what's going to happen (IQ). If they have the physical skills, they can play early, and they don't need great skills, Couts is barely above average as a skater, for example. The puck just seems to find them, they always seem to show up at the right time on defense, etc., because they're a step ahead of everyone else.

Most players need development time, uber talents like Konecny can play while they learn, but you have to live with their mistakes. Most players spend 2 years in juniors and a year in the AHL learning the game to the point it becomes second nature. Less physically talented players may spend 2-3 years in the AHL because they have a smaller margin of error (Giroux v Weal, similar style but Giroux is far more talented).

Dumb players, well, if they're not that talented they become career AHL guys, when they are uber talents, they give HCs heart attacks before the GM has mercy on his HC and ships the player out of town.

Then there's a fourth category, what for a better term I'd call "unfocused." Voracek is a perfect example, he's not dumb, he's not lazy, he's not uncoachable, but some games, and even within games, he has his WTF moments. I think he just loses focus on the ice - but when he's on, he's really on. Manning is similar, except he's not a great talent, so it's less tolerable.
 

Rebels57

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With our hole at 3C, I think there's at least a chance Frost makes the team out of camp.

Of course, starting in the AHL would be the most ideal scenario.

I really think the league should give NHL teams one exception per year to use on CHL teenagers allowing them to play in the AHL.
 

deadhead

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I agree, but hextall seems to admire weight

Have you watched the Flyers get dominated on the boards this season?

I think Hextall wants to avoid having too many small players, much less smurfs, in his lineup.
Konecny is an exception, because he plays above his weight class (basically he's a nut job).
It's not that he wants a huge team, just a nice balance between smaller guys with skill and bigger guys who can handle the dirty work.
But a bottom six with Read, Weal, Filppula is a bit undersized and soft.

Of course, if he can find more Ratcliffes (6'6, probably fills out to 220 and will still be one of the fastest players on the team). . . .

But guys like Patrick, Lindblom, Sanheim (when he fills out), Myers, NAK, Vorobyev, etc. balance size and skill.
You really don't want Giroux or Frost spending a lot of time in the corners getting pounded, you want them in space making plays.

I could see Frost next year with Laughton on LW and NAK on RW, it would be a great forechecking group and with Frost at center, Laughton and NAK would have a shot at 20 goals.
 

Flyerfan13

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With our hole at 3C, I think there's at least a chance Frost makes the team out of camp.

Of course, starting in the AHL would be the most ideal scenario.

I really think the league should give NHL teams one exception per year to use on CHL teenagers allowing them to play in the AHL.

He has a chance for sure but idk reb he would probably get run at like martel does in the ahl and I wouldn't want that for a 19 year old kid.
 
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Rebels57

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He has a chance for sure but idk reb he would probably get run at like martel does in the ahl and I wouldn't want that for a 19 year old kid.

That's fair but some players are smart enough to avoid big contact and I think Frost would be one of them. William Nylander was able to handle the AHL just fine as an 18 and 19 year old. Nylander had a bit of weight on him. If Frost could add some weight in the form of muscle this summer I think he would be fine.
 
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deadhead

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Of course, combine weights are outdated by the time they hit the NHL.
NAK was 187 at age 18, I think he weighed in at camp at 205 this fall at age 21.

DeAngelo #19 5'11 175 (now listed at 183 on EP)
Ehlers #9 5'11 162 (now listed at 6'0 172 on EP)
Pasternak #25 6'0 167 (now listed at 6'0 181 on EP)
2015:
Marner #4 5'11 160 (now listed at 5'11 172 on EP)
DeBrusk #14 6'0 174 (now listed at 6'0 184 on EP)
Barzal #16 5'11 175 (now listed at 6'0 185 on EP)
Aho #35 5'11 172 (now listed at 5'11 172 on EP)

Frost was 5'10 3/4 173
Supposedly at 6'0 180 this year, an inch and 10 lbs by TC wouldn't be unusual (15 months at age 18-19).
If he shows up at 5'11 to 6'0 and 180-185 lbs, there's a good chance he sticks.
He's probably going to max out at 185-190 in any case.

Konecny was 5'10 175 at the combine, two years later he was 184 lbs at TC.
 

BobbyClarkeFan16

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So, seeing as to how a certain someone can't read, I figured I'd go back to my post with the different links talking about Konecny's hockey IQ and hockey sense. It's clear that someone only cherry picks what they want because if the article doesn't say "IQ" then it doesn't pertain to Konecny because he doesn't have it. I'll bold the sections as well so that a certain somebody won't be 'confused' by what was written.

“A talented scoring forward that can play either as a center or on the wing; plays with the bite and intensity of a guy who is willing to do anything to win a game. Possesses dynamic skating ability that allows him to accelerate rapidly with each step, incredible hockey sense, electrifying puckhandling skills, and a lightning release on his shot; when you put this skillset together with hard-nosed determination, proactiveness in all three zones, and a physical willingness to grind and persevere, you get a game-changer who can be extremely difficult to play against."

"Ten years ago, you’d probably classify Konecny as the kind of undersized player who’s draft day fate was out of his hands before he even hit the ice. But times have changed, and we are seeing more players like the Ottawa 67’s skilled captain come to the forefront. It is very difficult to pinpoint what Konecny’s best assets are simply because he is just so darn good at so many things; he hits, he scores, he skates, he leads and he delivers. Konecny possesses the determination, speed and goal scoring abilities of Zach Parise, but also provides leadership, physicality and dependability. You will rarely, if ever, see this kid take a shift off. He plays through pain. He plays through adversity and he does so with a predatory mindset. Konecny possesses an arsenal of moves and ways to create space; he is extremely difficult to telegraph and wargame because he is one of the few draft eligibles who can make plays while moving at a very high rate of speed. Konecny is just as dangerous being kept to the outside as he is in the slot, as teams remarkably seem to lose him despite being Ottawa’s best player. His elusiveness and vision make him as dangerous without the puck and he is with it on his stick. As mentioned before, he’s not big (5’10) but he has a thick enough frame to withstand a lot of punishment, and when he hits you, it accomplishes his intent. He makes smart decisions, working through situations while leading and communicating both on the ice and on the bench. A very smart and savvy leader who is wise beyond his years. Gamer mentality with star potential."

" His speed, skating, puck control and passing are all outstanding, and he possesses elite levels of awareness and creativity in the offensive zone. When it comes to effort and determination you won't find many better.
His greatest individual attribute, however, is his shot, which he can unleash from almost anywhere in the offensive zone and comes off of his stick with remarkable power and accuracy for a player of his size."

" Another one of the top end elite skaters and puck movers in the class, with excellent edging, burst and agility. Has the ability to go into tight spaces and control the puck and dictate play. You will see him involved in all three zones, giving strong work ethic in his end and quick bursts to loose pucks or throw checks. His compete level is bigger than his stature so might see him getting bounced a bit along the wall in those puck battles. Simply takes no quarter. The lack of size might be an advantage when he pushes his way through crowds to reach scoring areas, receive passes, and take shots. A player who clearly has a quick release and deceptively strong wrist and snapshots, but is very comfortable distributing the puck and using his smarts to read and react to the defense with slick set-ups. There is much to like about this young man. "

" The first time I saw Konecny play was at the U17 Championships a year and a half ago. He played on a fairly dominant Team Ontario that also featured the likes of Marner and Dylan Strome, but his play immediately grabbed my attention. To start, Konecny is a wonderful skater, with the kind of speed, agility, and elusiveness that a player of his size must have to be successful at the next level. His hockey IQ is strong, although it would not be outlandish to suggest that he’s one of those players whose hands and feet move faster than he himself can process. That’s not a dig at his smarts, but rather a compliment to his skating and puck-handling, which he can do at a high level even when at top speed. Konecny is a well-rounded offensive package who is equally strong in terms of playmaking and goalscoring. His lethal shot is one of his biggest strengths and can beat netminders from anywhere on the ice. He also has the authority and the confidence to shoot where some players might choose to pass even if shooting is clearly the better option. He has good vision and playmaking ability as well, and both options can be utilized as he sees fit. "

I guess because hockey IQ is only listed twice, it's not clear enough for a certain someone. So, hopefully the bolded part makes sense to him because it's clear he doesn't know shit from shinola when talking about Konecny. Stupid hockey sense and IQ........I guess Konecny's future is a 3rd line winger who plays recklessly and only chest snipes at opposing goalies.
 

deadhead

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In other words, a really talented offensive player who reacts quickly to what he sees in open ice.

Frost went lower in the draft because of his frame and lack of production, you had to project this years performance to take him top ten, and that was a big risk. Hextall drafted him as much on his hockey IQ as his potential.

Konecny was a 1.1 ppg player his two years before the draft, then he got traded to Sarnia and exploded after the draft (31g 23-33 56).
Frost had 27 points in 65g two years ago, and 62 in 67g last season. Most teams had him as a 2nd rd pick.
In terms of sheer offensive talent, TK was the better prospect.
But find any quote from Hextall about TK comparable to what he's said about Frost:

"Morgan is an exceptionally smart player," Flyers general manager Ron Hextall said in September. "He is very skilled as a playmaker and plays a two-way game but it's his smarts that are his biggest asset."
PROSPECT UPDATE: Frost headlines potential 2019 WJC candidates

After draft day, Ron Hextall used the e(lite) word to describe Morgan Frost's hockey sense: a term he does not throw out lightly.


 

FlyTimmo

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Frost has great top-end speed but that doesn't mean much in today's NHL. If it takes you long to get to top speed, you are caught. I wouldn't get too excited over how fast his combine speed was.

Though, Frost has some of the best hands and playmaking ability I've seen from a Flyer prospect. He can slow the pace of the game in a similar way to Giroux. He will be an excellent NHL player.
 
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FlyTimmo

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Also, bullshit on Frost not being able to play next year due to size. TB has several players in that weight range and they are doing fine. Point is barely 165. Gourde is 170.

GTFO Pryor. If he isn't on the team next year because of size, that is ridiculous. This isn't the 80-90s, size for forwards hasn't mattered this little since the 60s.
 

bobbythebrain

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In other words, a really talented offensive player who reacts quickly to what he sees in open ice.

Frost went lower in the draft because of his frame and lack of production, you had to project this years performance to take him top ten, and that was a big risk. Hextall drafted him as much on his hockey IQ as his potential.

Konecny was a 1.1 ppg player his two years before the draft, then he got traded to Sarnia and exploded after the draft (31g 23-33 56).
Frost had 27 points in 65g two years ago, and 62 in 67g last season. Most teams had him as a 2nd rd pick.
In terms of sheer offensive talent, TK was the better prospect.
But find any quote from Hextall about TK comparable to what he's said about Frost:

"Morgan is an exceptionally smart player," Flyers general manager Ron Hextall said in September. "He is very skilled as a playmaker and plays a two-way game but it's his smarts that are his biggest asset."
PROSPECT UPDATE: Frost headlines potential 2019 WJC candidates

After draft day, Ron Hextall used the e(lite) word to describe Morgan Frost's hockey sense: a term he does not throw out lightly.



Isn't there a quote from you saying, around Dec, TK was 2 years removed from being a consistant top 6 forward?
 
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FlyTimmo

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While the great filter for Frost might be weight, I'd rather him continue to work on skating in the offseason instead of prioritizing bulk. Why add bricks to your ferrari? If his 1st step improved a tad more he could really be an elite player.
 

deadhead

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Isn't there a quote from you saying, around Dec, TK was 2 years removed from being a consistant top 6 forward?

He is, notice he's cooled off since his hot start with Giroux and Couts. I blame him for Couts' goal scoring slump!:sarcasm:

TK still makes too many mind fart passes and outskates plays, in two years as he fills out (up to 184, I see him maxing out at 190, which he needs given his style of play, he doesn't exactly avoid contact), gets experience and learns that he doesn't have to go 100 MPH all the time, he'll be a more consistent player. He's gotten better on the back check, but he could improve further. And as his lack of SHO success demonstrates, he could work on his breakaway moves.
 

Deadpool8812

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Dumb players, well, if they're not that talented they become career AHL guys, when they are uber talents, they give HCs heart attacks before the GM has mercy on his HC and ships the player out of town.

And then there's Zac Rinaldo, who is one of the dumbest and possibly the least skilled player in terms of straight up hockey talent, and he's been an NHL regular for 6 years now
 
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Ruck Over

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Why add bricks to your ferrari?

Well see, sometimes cars have bad traction when driving in snow because of less grip. And since Ferrari's are notoriously light cars for the corresponding horsepower, it may make sense that it would be advantageous to add even more bulk to the vehicle in order for the wheels to really dig down deep and get a good grip. Since snow, and ice, are similar (frozen water), it could only be expected that additional weight added to Frost's frame will help him dig deeper into the ice, thus increasing traction, which should make him a better skater?

Pretty sure this is correct.

As an aside, another add weight to performance vehicle story- When Cadillac began racing in the PWC (2004) they blew the competition away. After the season, it was deemed Cadillac needed to add weights (literally, think 45 lb plates from the gym) to their cars in order to bring down the hp/lb ratio. So, obviously, Morgan Frost at his current weight is too good, thus he needs to get fat (maybe like Kessel), so he's only very good, instead of exceptionally good. I'm reaching here, maybe this is true.
 

The Rage Kage

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Apr 21, 2014
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He is, notice he's cooled off since his hot start with Giroux and Couts. I blame him for Couts' goal scoring slump!:sarcasm:

TK still makes too many mind fart passes and outskates plays, in two years as he fills out (up to 184, I see him maxing out at 190, which he needs given his style of play, he doesn't exactly avoid contact), gets experience and learns that he doesn't have to go 100 MPH all the time, he'll be a more consistent player. He's gotten better on the back check, but he could improve further. And as his lack of SHO success demonstrates, he could work on his breakaway moves.
4 in his last 5, 7 in his last 10, 16 in his last 20. 16 in the 20 games before that.

"Cooled off"
 
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Jtown

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Konecny was the first overall pick in his OHL draft year. McDavid got exceptional status the year before but the two of them were pretty the who’s who of Ontario based players for the 1997 birthyears in the early going. Overexposure with combination with his size/injury concerns probably hurt him.

I remember when he went 1 and strome was heavily talked about but went 2 or 3, i looked at Konecny and thought he is tres petite.
 
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