Player Discussion Robin Lehner – Part 1

Der Jaeger

Generational EBUG
Feb 14, 2009
17,592
13,916
Cair Paravel
Lehner is an average starting goalie. He's a positioning and system goalie. It's all probability. Form a defense which limits HDSCA. Find a big goalie who has great fundamentals and positioning, and you'll stop most of what comes.

This way is how Chicago does it. Crawford is average and sound. But he's not great. His best quality is that he's clutch.

I'd rather spend cap dollars on a goalie like Lehner, or Ullmark, or UPL, and create a great defense and center spine.

Lehner's two biggest issues are the defense and expectations. He's never going to be elite. He's also a bit of a butthole, which is not good for a goalie unless you're name is Roy or Hasek.

And he's not going to be good on a team which gives up HDSCA shots. I think that's why GMBOT signed him to the one-year deal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doug Prishpreed

Rasmus CacOlainen

The end of the Tank
Sep 24, 2015
7,226
1,137
Europe
Lehner is an average starting goalie. He's a positioning and system goalie. It's all probability. Form a defense which limits HDSCA. Find a big goalie who has great fundamentals and positioning, and you'll stop most of what comes.

This way is how Chicago does it. Crawford is average and sound. But he's not great. His best quality is that he's clutch.

I'd rather spend cap dollars on a goalie like Lehner, or Ullmark, or UPL, and create a great defense and center spine.

Lehner's two biggest issues are the defense and expectations. He's never going to be elite. He's also a bit of a butthole, which is not good for a goalie unless you're name is Roy or Hasek.

And he's not going to be good on a team which gives up HDSCA shots. I think that's why GMBOT signed him to the one-year deal.
My problem with Lehner is that Ullmark can do the same job he does for less than half the cap. I cannot justify re-signing him on his current cap hit even if he's not been terrible this year. He has solid nights but even on most of these he lets it a softy or two. He's still a trainwreck in OT and SO so what is the point. If you pay 3 more million to one goalie compared to another you expect him to give you some competitive advantage and I don't see it. Letting him go and gettin some else cheap to go along with Ullmark will allow more cap for D/Winger reinforcements. If we can get some picks for Lehner even better.
 

valet

obviously adhd
Sponsor
Jan 26, 2017
8,975
5,144
buffalo
Lehner is an average starting goalie. He's a positioning and system goalie. It's all probability. Form a defense which limits HDSCA. Find a big goalie who has great fundamentals and positioning, and you'll stop most of what comes.

This way is how Chicago does it. Crawford is average and sound. But he's not great. His best quality is that he's clutch.

I'd rather spend cap dollars on a goalie like Lehner, or Ullmark, or UPL, and create a great defense and center spine.

Lehner's two biggest issues are the defense and expectations. He's never going to be elite. He's also a bit of a butthole, which is not good for a goalie unless you're name is Roy or Hasek.

And he's not going to be good on a team which gives up HDSCA shots. I think that's why GMBOT signed him to the one-year deal.
Lehner has below average positioning and fundamentals. He is not an average NHL goalie. He is an inconsistent backup making 4 mil a year. Stockholm syndrome is the only reason he gets any support around here. The Sabres will move on from him after this season.
 

1972

"Craigs on it"
Apr 9, 2012
14,426
3,147
Canada
I don’t mind Lehner, but he’s not the type of guy you can rely on. I’ve seen enough to know he’s not the guy moving forward, simply has no clutch factor and let’s you down to often.
 

haseoke39

Registered User
Mar 29, 2011
13,938
2,490
Yeah, we all buy the Crawford theory, but lehner is no Crawford. He's weak technically. Can't move low in his crouch, can't recover from his butterfly (this is the advantage of a 170lb tender) to follow rebounds or passes, doesn't have good positioning. Plays small for 6'4".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doug Prishpreed

IranCondraAffair

Registered User
Mar 10, 2006
9,258
3,956
This reads exactly as an extension of the Lehner debate on the Sens board from a while back.

Not a criticism, just interesting that nothing has changed.
 

Der Jaeger

Generational EBUG
Feb 14, 2009
17,592
13,916
Cair Paravel
My problem with Lehner is that Ullmark can do the same job he does for less than half the cap. I cannot justify re-signing him on his current cap hit even if he's not been terrible this year. He has solid nights but even on most of these he lets it a softy or two. He's still a trainwreck in OT and SO so what is the point. If you pay 3 more million to one goalie compared to another you expect him to give you some competitive advantage and I don't see it. Letting him go and gettin some else cheap to go along with Ullmark will allow more cap for D/Winger reinforcements. If we can get some picks for Lehner even better.

If the argument is that we should have a starter and a young goalie pushing the NHL starter..... and then when the NHL starter out-prices the salary structure, move him.... I'm on-board. I think the Sabres are one year away from that situation. I think the goaltending next year needs someone to be the starter and Ullmark as the back-up - if Ullmark plays well in Rochester. If it's not Lehner as the starter, free agency isn't promising. Ward isn't coming to Buffalo. Halak isn't coming to Buffalo. Lehtonen, Hammond, and Lack are the best options aside from re-signing Johnson.

GMBOT needs to be careful in downgrading from Lehner to someone who's worse. Then the team will feel compelled to rush Ullmark and UPL. That's even worse than the current situation.

Lehner has below average positioning and fundamentals. He is not an average NHL goalie. He is an inconsistent backup making 4 mil a year. Stockholm syndrome is the only reason he gets any support around here. The Sabres will move on from him after this season.

That's not true. He's average. He doesn't have the reflex athleticism to cover. That's his real issue. Positioning/blocking goalies sometimes don't have the reflex strength to make saves they shouldn't. And Lehner knows it. It's why he does MMA training.

Yeah, we all buy the Crawford theory, but lehner is no Crawford. He's weak technically. Can't move low in his crouch, can't recover from his butterfly (this is the advantage of a 170lb tender) to follow rebounds or passes, doesn't have good positioning. Plays small for 6'4".

None of this is really an issue for Lehner. The difference between Lehner and Crawford is that Crawford is VERY good late in games or in clutch situations.

Chicago gets a goaltending pulse that looks like this: average.... average....average...average....OMG!....average...average...OMG!...OMG!!!

The great parts of Crawford's game are at key points in the game and late in games. That's the difference. It's not technical differences. Which are small.
 

haseoke39

Registered User
Mar 29, 2011
13,938
2,490
That's not true. He's average. He doesn't have the reflex athleticism to cover. That's his real issue. Positioning/blocking goalies sometimes don't have the reflex strength to make saves they shouldn't. And Lehner knows it. It's why he does MMA training.

His reflexes are his best attribute. If he can just sit in his butterfly and not move and track the puck, his hand-eye is very strong. That's the best thing he has going for him.

If you're saying "reflex athleticism" to mostly just mean "athleticism", I agree.

None of this is really an issue for Lehner. The difference between Lehner and Crawford is that Crawford is VERY good late in games or in clutch situations.

Chicago gets a goaltending pulse that looks like this: average.... average....average...average....OMG!....average...average...OMG!...OMG!!!

The great parts of Crawford's game are at key points in the game and late in games. That's the difference. It's not technical differences. Which are small.

Yeah, not buying it. This just reads like how NBC sells a player to laymen fans, not a real critique of the player.
 

Der Jaeger

Generational EBUG
Feb 14, 2009
17,592
13,916
Cair Paravel
His reflexes are his best attribute. If he can just sit in his butterfly and not move and track the puck, his hand-eye is very strong. That's the best thing he has going for him.

If you're saying "reflex athleticism" to mostly just mean "athleticism", I agree.

Hand-eye coordination is not the same thing as reflex athleticism. Hand-eye, and really skate-eye, coordination is what goalies need to ensure the four moving body parts get to spots accurately. Lehner has that, with some form issues getting his pad to the post.

Reflex athleticism is the time is takes to more the four body parts to the points in space required to make saves. It has a lot to do with neuron speed and muscle twitch. An example of that is a fast move of a body part, or the entire body, to get into position to make the save.

Neither of these two are good enough in isolation. Moving fast is irrelevant is the goalie isn't getting the body part into the spot the puck is going. Having great coordination is irrelevant if the goalie is slow in movement.

, not buying it. This just reads like how NBC sells a player to laymen fans, not a real critique of the player.

OK, explain it then. Lehner has post issues. Crawford's catching glove sucks high. They both have technical issues. The difference is that Crawford doesn't let in a ton of the back-breaking goals late, or in clutch moments.

Mental workouts are more important to goaltenders than physical ones. One of the most important drills I did when I was a teen was reading a book, word for word, concentrating on each word, then thinking through the meaning of the sentence. I did that while in noisy, distraction filled rooms, such as a lunch room in a school or a dining facility at a college.

Mental acumen is a thing. Crawford has it in spades.
 

haseoke39

Registered User
Mar 29, 2011
13,938
2,490
Hand-eye coordination is not the same thing as reflex athleticism. Hand-eye, and really skate-eye, coordination is what goalies need to ensure the four moving body parts get to spots accurately. Lehner has that, with some form issues getting his pad to the post.

Reflex athleticism is the time is takes to more the four body parts to the points in space required to make saves. It has a lot to do with neuron speed and muscle twitch. An example of that is a fast move of a body part, or the entire body, to get into position to make the save.

Neither of these two are good enough in isolation. Moving fast is irrelevant is the goalie isn't getting the body part into the spot the puck is going. Having great coordination is irrelevant if the goalie is slow in movement.



OK, explain it then. Lehner has post issues. Crawford's catching glove sucks high. They both have technical issues. The difference is that Crawford doesn't let in a ton of the back-breaking goals late, or in clutch moments.

Mental workouts are more important to goaltenders than physical ones. One of the most important drills I did when I was a teen was reading a book, word for word, concentrating on each word, then thinking through the meaning of the sentence. I did that while in noisy, distraction filled rooms, such as a lunch room in a school or a dining facility at a college.

Mental acumen is a thing. Crawford has it in spades.

It's not an issue of how fast he can react or how quickly his neurons can fire. It's what he does when he reacts.

He's a 240 lb man and he has trouble moving that frame around through a lot of the basic technical moves a goalie at this level makes. If he's down at the post on his blocker side and the play moves to his glove side post, he'll react. His neurons will twitch. But what would be a very simple push and glide across in the butterfly for Jonathan Quick is just not in his arsenal. He's more likely to dive across with his chest and glove hand, doing more work with more muscles for a lower probability stop, and which leaves him defenseless on the second chance, but which looks gloriously difficult for the average fan to watch. Or if he thinks he has time, I've seen him many times actually get back onto both skates in order to do that simple little move because he's not strong enough or lacks the technique to do it with one leg sealed. That's pretty remarkable at this level. Strong technical goalies can drop, and half-raise one leg to push themselves around the crease in a tight butterfly, and Lehner just doesn't have the technique or the leg strength from his hip abductors (which are typically weak for most people, not easy to move 240 lbs with) to do it. Likewise, in 1-on-1 situations, he can't get real low in his crouch, half-sealing the 5-hole while still on his skate blades, able to follow the deke in his butterfly, which means he's always having to bite early and go down and then end up trying to stop the deke on his stomach, or else leaving a big wide 5-hole for the shooter to stare at. And that goes along with his weakness on the posts, which you pointed out.

Just getting a 6'4", 240 lb man with great reflexes is nothing if he can't effortlessly glide around his crease in the butterfly. Which most goalies at this level do most of the time. Robin Lehner will never be "clutch" if he can't be average all the time. The mental part is even getting too picky at this point, and I'd settle for technically strong.

EDIT: And if he can't do this stuff at 26, you don't want to see him trying at 30.
 
Last edited:

valet

obviously adhd
Sponsor
Jan 26, 2017
8,975
5,144
buffalo
That's not true. He's average. He doesn't have the reflex athleticism to cover. That's his real issue. Positioning/blocking goalies sometimes don't have the reflex strength to make saves they shouldn't. And Lehner knows it. It's why he does MMA training.

That's fair. I see your point. But he is below average as an NHL goaltender. If you've watched any games this year you've already noticed that average goalies don't let egregious softies in at the rate that he does (I'm saying this without citing evidence, but hey! :cool:), and we've played against some average goalies.
 

Der Jaeger

Generational EBUG
Feb 14, 2009
17,592
13,916
Cair Paravel
It's not an issue of how fast he can react or how quickly his neurons can fire. It's what he does when he reacts.

He's a 240 lb man and he has trouble moving that frame around through a lot of the basic technical moves a goalie at this level makes. If he's down at the post on his blocker side and the play moves to his glove side post, he'll react. His neurons will twitch. But what would be a very simple push and glide across in the butterfly for Jonathan Quick is just not in his arsenal. He's more likely to dive across with his chest and glove hand, doing more work with more muscles for a lower probability stop, and which leaves him defenseless on the second chance, but which looks gloriously difficult for the average fan to watch. Or if he thinks he has time, I've seen him many times actually get back onto both skates in order to do that simple little move because he's not strong enough or lacks the technique to do it with one leg sealed. That's pretty remarkable at this level. Strong technical goalies can drop, and half-raise one leg to push themselves around the crease in a tight butterfly, and Lehner just doesn't have the technique or the leg strength from his hip abductors (which are typically weak for most people, not easy to move 240 lbs with) to do it. Likewise, in 1-on-1 situations, he can't get real low in his crouch, half-sealing the 5-hole while still on his skate blades, able to follow the deke in his butterfly, which means he's always having to bite early and go down and then end up trying to stop the deke on his stomach, or else leaving a big wide 5-hole for the shooter to stare at. And that goes along with his weakness on the posts, which you pointed out.

Just getting a 6'4", 240 lb man with great reflexes is nothing if he can't effortlessly glide around his crease in the butterfly. Which most goalies at this level do most of the time. Robin Lehner will never be "clutch" if he can't be average all the time. The mental part is even getting too picky at this point, and I'd settle for technically strong.

EDIT: And if he can't do this stuff at 26, you don't want to see him trying at 30.

What you're describing about his movement skills describe basically every big, blocking goalie in the league. Andersen in Toronto is the same way. And I don't see the diving.

Lehner has the strength to move in the butterfly. I watched him personally in warm-ups last season vs. the Stars in Dallas. He did them. There's no way a professional goalie can't do a butterfly slide.

There's differences in techniques. Lehner can do a butterfly slide. He's just not doing it. Whether that's his personal style or coaching (and I believe it's the former), it's not because he can't do it.

What you're seeing is an average, positional, blocker goalie.
 

haseoke39

Registered User
Mar 29, 2011
13,938
2,490
What you're describing about his movement skills describe basically every big, blocking goalie in the league. Andersen in Toronto is the same way. And I don't see the diving.

Lehner has the strength to move in the butterfly. I watched him personally in warm-ups last season vs. the Stars in Dallas. He did them. There's no way a professional goalie can't do a butterfly slide.

There's differences in techniques. Lehner can do a butterfly slide. He's just not doing it. Whether that's his personal style or coaching (and I believe it's the former), it's not because he can't do it.

What you're seeing is an average, positional, blocker goalie.

Warmups? We talkin bout warmups?

Seriously, obviously he can physically do them. My fundamentals look great in warmups. In the game, at speed, you might not do everything technically sound if it's not easy and natural and controlled for you.

If it's "personal style," I would have to argue very strenuously against his stylistic choice to move so poorly.
 

Der Jaeger

Generational EBUG
Feb 14, 2009
17,592
13,916
Cair Paravel
Warmups? We talkin bout warmups?

Seriously, obviously he can physically do them. My fundamentals look great in warmups. In the game, at speed, you might not do everything technically sound if it's not easy and natural and controlled for you.

If it's "personal style," I would have to argue very strenuously against his stylistic choice to move so poorly.

:laugh:

I thought you meant he was unable to.

I think it's his style. As a big guy, I think doing skate pushes are probably something he did growing up.
 

LaxSabre

Registered User
Apr 19, 2006
14,186
329
North Tonawanda, NY

Robin Lehner knows what Tyrod Taylor has been going through. The quarterback in the NFL probably gets much of the blame for losses and too much of the credit for victories. You can make the same analogy about NHL goalies.

"One hundred percent," Lehner told The Buffalo News Tuesday in KeyBank Center. "I've been following the Bills and a lot of people have been on him. Now they're not and that's just how it works. In hockey, all over the league and especially in the last 4-5 years, when things don't go well for a team it's become two positions people look at: That's goalies and coaches. At the end of the day, I'm fine with it. I truly am. I try not to listen. I've been in the league for a while. I know when I play bad and I know when I play good."

For a franchise that has had a run of fan favorites in goal, Lehner has never tickled the fancy of the paying customers here. Many remain sore that former General Manager Tim Murray traded a first-round pick in 2015 to get Lehner from Ottawa. "It's not something I care about really. I don't think about a first-round pick," Lehner said. "Since I got here, we haven't been winning. I don't need credit or praise. I've been around that 92 percent mark, one of the top in the league, since I got here. If that's not worth a first-rounder, that's for other people to judge.

Lehner has had a whirlwind last few days. His wife, Donya, gave birth to their second child Friday morning and then he headed to practice. Daughter Zoe weighed in at 7 pounds, 7 ounces. His son, Lennox, turned 3 on Monday.

"It's pretty crazy," he said. "It was a very long night but it came out very well with obviously a lot of emotions. But then you get out of the hospital and make it to practice and get ready for a game against San Jose on Saturday. Then it's my son's birthday, and now Halloween. It's been a helluva weekend. I was up late Monday carving pumpkins. It's been a family weekend."

Rest Of The Article - http://buffalonews.com/2017/10/31/m...ocial&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1509494240
 

La Cosa Nostra

Caporegime
Jun 25, 2009
14,073
2,335
Lehner would point to an overinflated, misleading svp to try and deflect criticism on the ridiculous overpayment we shelled out for the bum. Lehner was worth a 2nd rounder at best. Gotta love Tim Murray for totally f***ing over the Sabres organization in the 3 plus years he was here.

Like what made Murray give up #21 in an elite draft for not just Lehner, but Lehner AND a major cap dump. Legwand hand negative value, so in reality that means Murray placed a first rounder in the 15-18 range for him when you factor in Legwand. Unreal. Still makes me sick over two years later we dealt #21 in an elite draft for this garbage goalie. 2015 will be remembered just like 2003,2008 and 2013.... loaded elite drafts. We gave up an elite prospect for Robin f***ing Lehner.

This team is terrible, so trading for Lehner hasn't accelerated shit. Should have just stayed put at 21 and drafted Samsonov. Instead we have a 26 and a half year old goalie who is mediocre at best. :clap:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: pigpen65

Icicle

Think big
Oct 16, 2005
6,055
1,007
Lehner wanted a multi year and his agent had him do only a 1 year. Kinda tells it all to me. Feel a little bad for the guy cause we better not be re signing him for anything
 

DJN21

Registered User
Aug 8, 2011
9,425
2,567
Rochester
I'd gladly have him as a backup and not a regular starter. Money won't allow that. I'm ready to move on.

I wanna take a flier on blackwood. Always been a fan.
 

kirby11

Registered User
Mar 16, 2011
9,736
4,614
Buffalo, NY
One thing that I found interesting in that article--Lehner said he would play the Couture goal the same way again, leaning over slightly in anticipation of a possible pass.

I've never played goalie outside of some street hockey, so I could be totally wrong about this, but...
1. The play is a mini, non-traditional 2 on 1, following McCabe's ineffective check on Couture along the wall. As the goalie, aren't you supposed to play the shot in that situation and trust your defender will break up the pass?

With Tennyson as the defender, easier said than done, I suppose, but it appeared he would be in position to block a potential pass across.

2. Couture's on a pretty sharp angle when he shoots. Why give him any of the net to pick from that spot?

It just seemed like Lehner played it poorly to me, and the explanation of why he positioned himself that way doesn't make a ton of sense. If any former/current goalies want to chime in, feel free.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sabrebuild

sabrebuild

Registered User
Apr 21, 2014
10,517
2,770
Pittsburgh
Lehner would point to an overinflated, misleading svp to try and deflect criticism on the ridiculous overpayment we shelled out for the bum. Lehner was worth a 2nd rounder at best. Gotta love Tim Murray for totally ****ing over the Sabres organization in the 3 plus years he was here.

Like what made Murray give up #21 in an elite draft for not just Lehner, but Lehner AND a major cap dump. Legwand hand negative value, so in reality that means Murray placed a first rounder in the 15-18 range for him when you factor in Legwand. Unreal. Still makes me sick over two years later we dealt #21 in an elite draft for this garbage goalie. 2015 will be remembered just like 2003,2008 and 2013.... loaded elite drafts. We gave up an elite prospect for Robin ****ing Lehner.

This team is terrible, so trading for Lehner hasn't accelerated ****. Should have just stayed put at 21 and drafted Samsonov. Instead we have a 26 and a half year old goalie who is mediocre at best. :clap:

Let me start with, I too thought trading a first for any goalie was and is a dumb idea.

However are you seriously thinking that David Legwand and his contract could move the needle 3 to 6 picks in what was called a deep draft... how does that make sense at all?

Second, agreed wasting a first on a goalie is dumb. But you follow up that by saying we should have kept the pick only to use it on a completely unknown prospect goalie???? I hope that was just your typical frustration babble talk and not your actual desire, rather than drafting konecny instead or one of the other good prospects that would be reasonable choices.
 

brian_griffin

"Eric Cartman?"
May 10, 2007
16,624
7,851
In the Panderverse
Lehner has below average positioning and fundamentals. He is not an average NHL goalie. He is an inconsistent backup making 4 mil a year. Stockholm syndrome is the only reason he gets any support around here. The Sabres will move on from him after this season.
Ironically, he is Swedish...

One thing that I found interesting in that article--Lehner said he would play the Couture goal the same way again, leaning over slightly in anticipation of a possible pass.

I've never played goalie outside of some street hockey, so I could be totally wrong about this, but...
1. The play is a mini, non-traditional 2 on 1, following McCabe's ineffective check on Couture along the wall. As the goalie, aren't you supposed to play the shot in that situation and trust your defender will break up the pass?

With Tennyson as the defender, easier said than done, I suppose, but it appeared he would be in position to block a potential pass across.

2. Couture's on a pretty sharp angle when he shoots. Why give him any of the net to pick from that spot?

It just seemed like Lehner played it poorly to me, and the explanation of why he positioned himself that way doesn't make a ton of sense. If any former/current goalies want to chime in, feel free.
Note excusing Lehner in any way, but it was also a top-notch snipe by Couture.
 

Moskau

Registered User
Jun 30, 2004
19,978
4,743
WNY
Just remember a late 1st is an extreme overpayment but an early 2nd is just right.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->