Prospect Info: Robert Hagg [March 2014: AAV is $925k, 3-yr ELC, per Tim P.]

sa cyred

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Also side note, Sanhiem has been pushing the puck fantastically. To a point where it is throwing his % in such a positive direction. His CA is in line with Manning/MacD but he is moving the puck so well that it's making him super valuable.
 
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sa cyred

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I think his improved play last year was overrated because of how bad he was before that. He made a huge jump, but most of that was because right before that improvement he took a giant step backwards and was looking like a complete lost cause.

And yeah, I personally don't think he has a chance to make significant progress offensively or in transition. Can it get better? Sure, but I doubt the improvement will be enough to fix the problem. It'll always be a weak point and I think that's unacceptable in the present day NHL (the puck moving issues, not the scoring). Everyone has to be able to move the puck or they're going to be targeted and exposed. As far as I can tell, he has the physical ability to do it, which means it's an IQ/mentality problem... and that's the hardest thing to fix. I don't care if he never scores much at all, I care that his horrible puck moving makes it harder for others to score. Ghost and the forwards being stuck in their zone because Hagg is below average at moving the puck hurts a lot more than Hagg not being able to score himself.

Moving the puck is a hard stat to examine. That is definitely more eye test. I don't think it is as bad, but one thing I notice is that no matter what line he is on, he ALWAYS looks for his defensive partner to make the play out of the zone. Whether that was Ghost or Provorov, he does it every time. Is that Hagg doing it because of his lack in confidence in his outlet passing or because Hak tells him to focus on the defense and let Ghost/Provorov move the puck up the ice? I really don't know. He did the same exact thing in the AHL also which easily could have been Gordon.
 

FLYguy3911

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True, but if you compare to the 4th liners he has been with (Laughton/Leier(who has been fantastic advanced stats wise)/Raffl) they have faired extremely well. The only way you can make that case is if he played mostly with Patrick/Weiss who are nightly struggling in all advanced categories.
Add Lehtera in too. It pretty much offsets. Neither line scored so that affected the box score stats.
 
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deadhead

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I'd point out that Gudas made substantial jumps from his second season (first full season at age 23) to his fourth season (injured his third season) and again in his fifth season.
So I'm not going to conclude that Hagg can't make substantial strides until his 3rd season, if we don't see real improvement by that point, at age 24, then I accept that what we see is all we're gonna get.
 

NYCFlyer

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He doesn't need to work on his offensive game "just like Ghost/Sanhiem need to work on their defensive game"... they're two very very different situations.

His offensive game is pretty hopeless because he has a total lack of offensive IQ. At least Ghost and Sanheim have made noticeable progress. Hagg hasn't and isn't.

I don't understand why people are suddenly pretending that core flaws are easily able to be fixed. Being bad at something at every level is very different from being good at something, then struggling when you jump up a level, but then making progress and adjusting. They're adjusting, that's why they get so much more patience and are more positively thought of.
Every player has strengths and weaknesses. Every player can improve both. Hagg has done just fine imo as a rookie and will hopefully improve. That being said imo he is likely passed on the depth chart by superior talents in Morin and Myers. I see Hagg as a versatile 6/7 cost controlled defensemen and that is just fine with me.
 
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FLYguy3911

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I wish I saved Hagg's CA/CF before he played with Provorov. They were very good for a rookie D. They took a DIVE when he was placed on that top unit. Provorov faces the top competition every single night, so in general his CA is always fairly high.
Hagg before MacDonald injury:

CF/60 48.56 (last)
CA/60 58.56 (4th)
CF% 45.33 (last)
CF% rel -3.20 (last)
 

sa cyred

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Hagg before MacDonald injury:

CF/60 48.56 (last)
CA/60 58.56 (4th)
CF% 45.33 (last)
CF% rel -3.20 (last)

Interesting it does show his overall CF% did go down after he moved with Provorov like I thought. Be interested to see how Provorov has trended too. His CF isn’t good but it’s right there with Provorov now.

Also do you have a link? I’d be interested to compare to where others are. It’s such a small sample size at this point that game by game things changes.
 

Magua

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Back to something said earlier, any player can become adequate defensively if they possess physical gifts and some intelligence and a willingness to "do the work." Defense is about structure and commitment.

It's not even funny how much Sanheim has improved in his own end the last year and a half, as he's refined his game as a pro and grown into his body. It's been wonderful to watch, and even this season he's made strides in things like coverage and board pins and the like. His NZ defense, something needing work in years past, is terrific now too. I won't act like he's Provorov because that level is innate instincts and talent -- and maybe Hagg is better than him in a few areas -- but he has been solid. His problem has oddly enough been a lack of scoring (luck) and terrible on-ice save % (luck), which has masked his successes. But defense is very easy for a good player to improve, as he's shown.

Players don't "improve" offensively if they have no offensive ability or instincts. That's not how it works for puck butchers. Now, Sanheim you could say will improve offensively from his current production. Because that's realizing his gifts at this level. But offense is talent, creativity, skill, and you don't one day magically wake up with it. That part of your game you have. Good offensive players improve defense. Bad offensive players don't improve offense. Of course you could point to someone like Gudas as a target, but even then, he has better offensive instincts than given credit for; it's his skill that lacks, and his puck skills are still a bit underrated, especially compared to Hagg. And his aggression is essential to his offense. Project that with Hagg at your choosing. Morin is someone I could (could have?) buy into having untapped o-zone ability to the degree of a Gudas, but I'd like someone to point to what exactly Hagg does that allows for projection of untapped offense.
 
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JojoTheWhale

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Interesting it does show his overall CF% did go down after he moved with Provorov like I thought. Be interested to see how Provorov has trended too. His CF isn’t good but it’s right there with Provorov now.

Also do you have a link? I’d be interested to compare to where others are. It’s such a small sample size at this point that game by game things changes.

Ordinarily I would say we should look at Gostisbehere away from Hagg as well to get more of a baseline, but given that he spent much of that time this year away from Hagg with Manning in what was one of the most ill-conceived pairings imaginable, I don't know what we can really say about it.

If ever there was a pairing where the eye test makes you not care what the Shot outcomes were, boy is it that one. Manning is the lead (Man)dog on any pairing he plays. :laugh:
 
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Striiker

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What an ignorant post. Typical.
How would you know? You don't (can't?) even read my posts and constantly get confused about what I'm saying. :laugh:

I could pull up multiple examples of you embarrassing yourself by trying to be clever but failing miserably... why are you so determined to add to that list?
 

deadhead

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Of course you could point to someone like Gudas as a target, but even then, he has better offensive instincts than given credit for; it's his skill that lacks, and his puck skills are still a bit underrated, especially compared to Hagg. And his aggression is essential to his offense. Project that with Hagg at your choosing.

You're comparing Gudas at 25-26 with 4 years experience with Hagg as a 22 year old rookie.
I don't expect Hagg to be Sanheim, I'd be overjoyed if he grow up and became Gudas.
 
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Striiker

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Why can't he compare them?

Hakstol clearly did and his conclusion was that Hagg is already a better player than Gudas.

He's obviously wrong too.
 

sa cyred

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Back to something said earlier, any player can become adequate defensively if they possess physical gifts and some intelligence and a willingness to "do the work." Defense is about structure and commitment.

It's not even funny how much Sanheim has improved in his own end the last year and a half, as he's refined his game as a pro and grown into his body. It's been wonderful to watch, and even this season he's made strides in things like coverage and board pins and the like. His NZ defense, something needing work in years past, is terrific now too. I won't act like he's Provorov because that level is innate instincts and talent -- and maybe Hagg is better than him in a few areas -- but he has been solid. His problem has oddly enough been a lack of scoring (luck) and terrible on-ice save % (luck), which has masked his successes. But defense is very easy for a good player to improve, as he's shown.

Players don't "improve" offensively if they have no offensive ability or instincts. That's not how it works for puck butchers. Now, Sanheim you could say will improve offensively from his current production. Because that's realizing his gifts at this level. But offense is talent, creativity, skill, and you don't one day magically wake up with it. That part of your game you have. Good offensive players improve defense. Bad offensive players don't improve offense. Of course you could point to someone like Gudas as a target, but even then, he has better offensive instincts than given credit for; it's his skill that lacks, and his puck skills are still a bit underrated, especially compared to Hagg. And his aggression is essential to his offense. Project that with Hagg at your choosing.

Ima head out into the snow storm so I won't be able to post most likely rest of the day (going to a bar to get some niceeee happy hour drinks) but I personally don't believe this statement to be true. There are many examples of offensive players not improving their defense, whether it is because of positioning errors, "softness", giving up the line to much, or just error in plays. I just think it's a bit premature we are placing one players improvements on a timeline Sanhiem improving some of his defense at 21 (and saying he will continue to improve) vs. Hagg improving ANY of his offense at 22 (and saying he can't anymore). Again, I just think to state this as a fact is way more premature. If we are talking about this 1 year from now, I will 100% be on board.
 
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Magua

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You're comparing Gudas at 25-26 with 4 years experience with Hagg as a 22 year old rookie.
I don't expect Hagg to be Sanheim, I'd be overjoyed if he grow up and became Gudas.

I can't say whether Gudas always played like this or not, production withstanding. Neither can you, I reckon. He's always been an aggressive player, at the very least. It doesn't matter. He's a complete oddity that defies common sense and no one should ever be projected to follow his path. Josh Manson is another. They actually progressed their offense; Hagg (and Schultz and many others) regressed theirs going up levels. Who can say why something happens, but as I said, name actual concrete reasons Hagg will improve his offense because from my vantage point he can't pass a puck, can't skate with a puck, shows zero aggression, has no instincts in the cycle game and regularly kills it with terrible slap shots. Few things I dislike as much as baseless projections and assumed growth.
 
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JojoTheWhale

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Who can say why something happens, but as I said, name actual concrete reasons Hagg will improve his offense because from my vantage point he can't pass a puck, can't skate with a puck, shows zero aggression, has no instincts in the cycle game and regularly kills it with terrible slap shots.

But what we can say is that we (and the organization) should be able to make a more informed guess as to whether improvement can come by year 4 (!!) under their purview. That's what developmental leagues are supposed to be. That's entirely on Hextall - not Gordon and not Hakstol. It's his responsibility to dictate those terms.
 

deadhead

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I can't say whether Gudas always played like this or not, production withstanding. Neither can you, I reckon. He's always been an aggressive player, at the very least. It doesn't matter. He's a complete oddity that defies common sense and no one should ever be projected to follow his path. Josh Manson is another. They actually progressed their offense; Hagg (and Schultz and many others) regressed theirs going up levels. Who can say why something happens, but as I said, name actual concrete reasons Hagg will improve his offense because from my vantage point he can't pass a puck, can't skate with a puck, shows zero aggression, has no instincts in the cycle game and regularly kills it with terrible slap shots. Few things I dislike as much as baseless projections and assumed growth.

I don't assume anything, except experience teaches many rookies become better with experience.

Hagg can skate and pass, he's ultra-conservative right now, which is good for a rookie in a defensive role, since he's likely to make too many mistakes trying to be aggressive at this point in his career.

However, his shot is pretty bad, but that can be improved with practice, all he needs is "mediocre."

Hagg just has to get more comfortable in the D-zone, have the confidence to make smart decisions and safe, quick passes - he doesn't have to do anything fancy, just be functional. So we're not talking a huge leap in skill level, most of it is just developing a feel for what he can get away with at this level. And that often comes with experience.

I mean Gudas is not a great passer, rarely makes plays in the O-zone, isn't a great skater with the puck. But he knows how to shoot on net and not get blocked, when to challenge at the blue line and when to retreat, and so on. A lot of that was learned over the years, certainly TB didn't see him as a potential top 4 D-man.

Hagg doesn't have to be as good as Gudas, just follow the same career trajectory to become a solid 3rd line D-man.
All he needs is incremental improvement in basic skills and a better feel for the game. That's not a huge leap.
 
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Striiker

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FLYguy3911

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Interesting it does show his overall CF% did go down after he moved with Provorov like I thought. Be interested to see how Provorov has trended too. His CF isn’t good but it’s right there with Provorov now.

Also do you have a link? I’d be interested to compare to where others are. It’s such a small sample size at this point that game by game things changes.
Well raw CF% isn't the best measure for an 8 game. Better to look at relative stats.

Hagg with Ghost (223 minutes): -3.68%
Hagg with Provorov (197 minutes): +0.49%

Ghost w/o Hagg (224 minutes): +6.05%
Provorov w/o Hagg (300 minutes): -0.57%

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

You'll have to play around with filters.
 

tictactoe

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Jan 15, 2017
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He makes mistakes but he has good potential. He is trying to catch up, he is a half of step behind. He has size, he is physical, he covers the ice well, good 1st pass, over all he moves the puck well. Over all I like what I see. Hagg needs some seasoning and he will make right decision. Can't expect him to be as good as Provorov or Gost. All that aside I thought Morin looked better when he was on the ice.
 

Striiker

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He makes mistakes but he has good potential. He is trying to catch up, he is a half of step behind. He has size, he is physical, he covers the ice well, good 1st pass, over all he moves the puck well. Over all I like what I see. Hagg needs some seasoning and he will make right decision. Can't expect him to be as good as Provorov or Gost. All that aside I thought Morin looked better when he was on the ice.
:skeptic:
 

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
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Sometimes I'm convinced that we're not watching the games all in the same dimension and that this board is some sort of link between the dimensions.

Anyway, the Hagg in my dimension is afraid to touch the puck, and when he does get it, he gets rid of it almost immediately, without any thought towards maintaining possession, unless it's to pass it to a defense partner who can actually do something with it. If he was flashing any puck skills at all I'd be a lot more excited about him as a player.
 

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