Robbie Schremp or Kris Chucko?

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se7en*

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Phanuthier said:
Watch Kobasew and you'll see.

Read articles from Lowell last year, and you'll be impressed.

It's not about individual performances, but what you can do for a team. Kobasew does the little things away from the puck that makes his team successful - something Hemsky doesn't do. Kobasew creates chances using his speed (ie. saved many icing calls by beating defenseman tot he puck), he's in the corner battling and he's winning puck battles. I don't see Hemsky do that very often. Kobasew is the type of player I'd want when the game is on the line - Hemsky, on the other hand, I don't know what to expect from him night in and night out. Kobasew took a page out of Iginla's book this season, and has been the leader on the forwards IMO - not Iginla. What makes Iginla so good is he does the little things so well, so refined; that he perserves and wins the little battles and gets into positioning so well. That's what Kobasew does.

You might think "oh, Calgary fan, blindly bashing the Oilers" but you'd be wrong there. Raffi Torres impressed the hell out of me, if I were Kevin Lowe, I'd be building my roster around this guy. Clearly a winner. Shean Horcoff is another guy who I didn't think very much of (eg. "disallusioned Oiler fan thinking his team is the shat") but have come away impressed every time I see these guys. Obviously, Ryan Smyth who is the Candian symbol of a lion's heart. I can accept there are Oiler players who impress me. These guys do the little things, win the little battles, win the puck battles and do the little things right, to win you hockey games. Dispite how "impressive" Hemsky's points look, I don't think he's a guy I'd want on my team when the game's on the line.


You know nothing about the Oilers if you think Hemsky is inconsistant and Torres is the guy we should build around.
 

Phanuthier*

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Cerebral said:
Watch Hemsky and you'll see how gifted he is as well.
I don't believe I've ever denied how talented Hemksy is. I live in Edmonton, I get the song and dance about Hemsky. But I just don't think he has the mojo away from the puck to be a good enough player.

Which, to me, is far more important then what you do with the puck.

Cerebral said:
I've seen almost every game Kobasew has played so far this season and I've been fairly impressed. However, offensively, I'm still not sold on him being a big scorer. His points have come in spurts and a lot of them have been of the garbage variety where any one of 5 players could have gotten credit for it (for an example, check out one his goals against Edmonton).
How do you think Iginla gets most of his goals?

Or any Flame, for that matter?

Cerebral said:
Kobasew might use his speed to create plays but Hemsky does the same thing. He beat two guys on a rush in Edmonton's 5-1 victory over Nashville and fed to the puck to Smyth for a relatively easy goal. Kobasew might do a lot of the little things right but Hemsky does a lot of the big things. He's still frustrating at times to watch but Edmonton's relative success on the powerplay has been due in large part to Hemsky's work.
But he doesn't do it consistantly. That's the key. Some nights, Hemsky will look impressive as hell, other days, you'll see him shy away from the corners and other battles for the puck. Look at what supposed "skilled' players like the Sedin twins or Pavel Datsyuk did in the playoffs. Nothing.

Consistantcy is something I value. Maybe's the Flames are all cut from the same cloth, and the fans adapted it well, but I've always been far more impressed with consistantcy, heart, and what a player does away from the puck then what they do with the puck. To me, that is what wins championships. I think the Oilers actually have alot of players that could make some noise in the playoffs (if they make it there) but guys like Hemsky will drag them down IMO.
 

Phanuthier*

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Tikk said:
LOL by who? Roger Millions?
Roger Millions wouldn't know the difference between Ryan Smyth and Jason Smith.

At no time would you ever see me reference, defend ro even use what Roger Millions ever has to say to make any sort of point.
 

se7en*

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Phanuthier said:
I'll let you in on a little secret. After all his scouting reports, after all his young, inconsistant seasons, I had labelled Iginla as a peak 25 goal scorer myself. Almost everyone had. Oiler fans were flocking the Flames board with theri Smyth>Iginla posts, and I was inclined to believe them at the time.

The comparison wasn't about Chucko's upside, it was that you shouldn't make a call on a player like Chucko and write off his potential this early when he is still improving. With his physical assets and character attributes, who knows what a little heart can do.

Really? Back in 1996? Hardly anyone had internet, no one knew what a message forum was, thus I doubt that we were just "flocking" to these supposed "Calgary forums" (because a trip through the Wayback Machine shows that the Flames didn't have a message forum until after 2000 and didn't even have a website until 1998)
 

Phanuthier*

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Tikk said:
Really? Back in 1996? Hardly anyone had internet, no one knew what a message forum was, thus I doubt that we were just "flocking" to these supposed "Calgary forums" (because a trip through the Wayback Machine shows that the Flames didn't have a message forum until after 2000 and didn't even have a website until 1998)
I've been reading Calgarypuck.com since 1998 when Mike Board wrote for them, and they were independent of the message board Fire On Ice (now called Calgarypuck.com). I have also been reading Hockey's Future since 2000, back in the old tree format when you'd get a max number of posts of about 30 posts a day, and you'd have to have "honarary mentions" of a prospect to keep this Hockey's Future.

As for reports from 1996... The Hockey News was around, ya know. So was the radio. Where do you think I got my info then? And, at the time, a very bright columnist named Eric Duhatchuk still wrote for the Herald.
 

se7en*

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And you might wanna ditch the "Yeah well at Kobasews been to the finals!" argument until the Flames make the playoffs consistently.
 

Phanuthier*

Guest
Tikk said:
And you might wanna ditch the "Yeah well at Kobasews been to the finals!" argument until the Flames make the playoffs consistently.
Ok, if you want to try and disprove that one, how about:

- MVP, as a 18 year old, not yet drafted rookie, of the final four in the NCAA?
- MVP in the gold medal game for Team Canada at the WJC?
- Captain and MVP of Lowell - as proclaimed by the head coach in Lowell, the Hurricanes affiliate - which had Eric Staal?
 

Vomiting Kermit*

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Phanuthier said:
Like I said, I'll let you believe that your inconsistant, dime-in-a-dozen, soft Alice Hemsky is a better player then Kobasew, who comes to play every night, can play in all situations, creates chances from his speed and physical play and isn't afraid to drive to the net.
Hemsky has created chances with his passing and creativity with the puck every game this season...

...soft? Y e a h . . . :propeller

Take last night's game for example. He got kneed by Cullimore, skated it off, and came back out for the next shift... and then he got creamed by someone and didn't miss a shift. He's not afraid to go in the corners or take a hit to make a play, but you can keep telling yourself that if you want to.

I'll also let you believe that Hemsky, who has never won anything in his life
Here's some:

- won the Mike Bossy Trophy as the best professional prospect in the QMJHL
- named NHL Rookie of the Month in 2004
- helped Pardubice HC win the Czech Republic League championship and was MVP of the playoffs
- helped the Czech Republic win gold at the 2005 World Championships

over Alice Hemsky, an inconsistant forward who had a bunch of points in the first couple games of a NHL season, and thats as far as his resume goes.

It's not about individual performances - its about what an individual can do for a team. Kobasew is the Flames most consistant forward from the begining of the seaosn to now (heck, getting Iginla going some nights), for a team tied for the division lead. Hemsky can barely float his team into a playoff spot right now.
Hemsky has shown up for most, if not all, the games this season... way to completely dismiss this season and focus on the last. :shakehead
 

Cerebral

Registered User
Aug 4, 2003
23,262
565
Calgary, Alberta
Phanuthier said:
Consistantcy is something I value. Maybe's the Flames are all cut from the same cloth, and the fans adapted it well, but I've always been far more impressed with consistantcy, heart, and what a player does away from the puck then what they do with the puck. To me, that is what wins championships. I think the Oilers actually have alot of players that could make some noise in the playoffs (if they make it there) but guys like Hemsky will drag them down IMO.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Hemsky's totals in the stats column have been somewhat inconsistent this season (as have Kobasew's I might add) but he's been working hard pretty much every game he's played. He might not play the body like a guy like Kobasew but he's still trying to make things happen out on the ice.

There seems to be an unfair stigma that two-way players with a little bit of skill are "heart" players (although Kobasew has more skill than the average grinder) and that skilled players lack that fire. I completely disagree with this - I've seen Hemsky get absolutely levelled trying to get around a few defencemen this season with his fancy stickwork. Does he get rid of the puck the next time contact closes in and avoid getting hit? No, he tries the same move again in an effort to create some offence.

Skilled players can have heart too and it's unfair to label Hemsky as a perimeter player that avoids contact. Is he at times inconsistent with his play? Yes. Does he come out every game trying to put points on the board and fight through some tough hits (see the Cullimore knee on him Saturday night)? Yes as well. If players with his offensive talent are a dime a dozen as you previously stated (he's in the top 30 in the NHL in scoring right now tied with Richards, Palffy, Arnott and Iginla), he must be an incredibly strange dime.
 

Phanuthier*

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Cerebral said:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Hemsky's totals in the stats column have been somewhat inconsistent this season (as have Kobasew's I might add) but he's been working hard pretty much every game he's played. He might not play the body like a guy like Kobasew but he's still trying to make things happen out on the ice.

There seems to be an unfair stigma that two-way players with a little bit of skill are "heart" players (although Kobasew has more skill than the average grinder) and that skilled players lack that fire. I completely disagree with this - I've seen Hemsky get absolutely levelled trying to get around a few defencemen this season with his fancy stickwork. Does he get rid of the puck the next time contact closes in and avoid getting hit? No, he tries the same move again in an effort to create some offence.

Skilled players can have heart too and it's unfair to label Hemsky as a perimeter player that avoids contact. Is he at times inconsistent with his play? Yes. Does he come out every game trying to put points on the board and fight through some tough hits (see the Cullimore knee on him Saturday night)? Yes as well. If players with his offensive talent are a dime a dozen as you previously stated (he's in the top 30 in the NHL in scoring right now tied with Richards, Palffy, Arnott and Iginla), he must be an incredibly strange dime.
Feel free to bring this post up at the end of the season. Or in 2 years. If Hemsky proves me wrong, I'll eat my words.

But until then, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 

Cerebral

Registered User
Aug 4, 2003
23,262
565
Calgary, Alberta
Phanuthier said:
I'll also let you believe that Hemsky, who has never won anything in his life.

danny.7i said:
Here's some:

- won the Mike Bossy Trophy as the best professional prospect in the QMJHL
- named NHL Rookie of the Month in 2004
- helped Pardubice HC win the Czech Republic League championship and was MVP of the playoffs
- helped the Czech Republic win gold at the 2005 World Championships
Nicely played... :D
 

sunb

Registered User
Jun 27, 2004
3,232
0
Yale University
Phanuthier said:
I'll let you in on a little secret. After all his scouting reports, after all his young, inconsistant seasons, I had labelled Iginla as a peak 25 goal scorer myself. Almost everyone had. Oiler fans were flocking the Flames board with theri Smyth>Iginla posts, and I was inclined to believe them at the time.

The comparison wasn't about Chucko's upside, it was that you shouldn't make a call on a player like Chucko and write off his potential this early when he is still improving. With his physical assets and character attributes, who knows what a little heart can do.

Dude, what on the green earth are you talking about?

You were 10 years old when Iginla became a Calgary Flame in 1995. The next season, a 19 year old Iginla scored 21 goals and 50 points.

I find it hard to believe that you pegged Iginla to be a 25 goal scorer when you were 10.

A 21 year old Iginla, btw, scored 28 goals in 1998 / 1999. 29 goals, 31 goals, 52 goals, 35 goals and 41 goals in the following seasons.

Thats why you don't let 10 year olds make predictions!
4th graders should stick to playing with marbles and show-n-tell Pokemon cards.
At least let them go through puberty.
 
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Vomiting Kermit*

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Hemsky led all QMJHL rookies in scoring in 2000-01 (100 pts) and was named to the CHL All-Star Game. In 2001-02 (the only year these two played in the CHL at the same time) Hemsky was named to the second all-star team. That same year, Hemsky had 97 pts in 53 games (and also 16 in 10 playoff games) and was +26, Kobasew had 62 in 55 games (and also 15 in 15 playoff games) and was -1 on a Kelowna team that finished with two more points than Hull in less games.

Phanuthier said:
Dispite how "impressive" Hemsky's points look, I don't think he's a guy I'd want on my team when the game's on the line.
I have to ask, is Kobasew, though?

2003-04
Chuck Kobasew
GP :: 70
+/- :: -12
ES TOI / G :: 8:36
SH TOI / G :: 0:22
PP TOI / G :: 1:43
TOT TOI / G :: 10:22

Ales Hemsky
GP :: 71
+/- :: -7
ES TOI / G :: 11:13
SH TOI / G :: 0:30
PP TOI / G :: 2:42
TOT TOI / G :: 14:26

And since I can't get RTSS (hits, blocks, giveaways, takeaways, etc.) stats for that season, this season will have to do:

2005-06
Chuck Kobasew
GP :: 22
+/- :: +3
ES TOI / G :: 10:09
SH TOI / G :: 0:07
PP TOI / G :: 3:03
TOT TOI / G :: 13:20
Hits :: 18
Blocks :: 6
GvA :: 9
TkA :: 17

Ales Hemsky
GP :: 22
+/- :: -1
ES TOI / G :: 11:09
SH TOI / G :: 0:50
PP TOI / G :: 5:11
TOT TOI / G :: 17:11
Hits :: 11
Blks :: 4
GvA :: 34
TkA :: 15

They aren't that far off other than average ice time and the giveaway/takeaway ratio (Hemsky is -19, Kobasew is +8). I'm not making an excuse for Hemsky but most of the time he turns the puck over is when he tries deking around three guys in the offensive zone or he tries making a pass that isn't there. I don't really recall him making a ton of giveaways in his own end. =\

Flame away. Bleh. :)

Edit: Ahh, just read your PM Phanuthier.
 
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